Belizean authorities are claiming a big hand in a large drug bust that occurred Wednesday evening. Belize's Anti-Drug Unit along with the BDF's Coast Guard were pursuing a skiff off the shores of San Pedro when it entered international waters. Belizean authorities then contacted their Mexican counterparts who picked up the chase.

The Mexicans called out high-speed skiffs from their Navy which instructed the vessel to stop. It didn't and that's when the Mexicans called out two helicopters and a rapid response team. One of the helicopters, a Bolkow Super 5 shot out the engines, and also hit one of the passengers. Another helicopter an m1-17 followed up with a rapid response team, which went into the water and secured the crippled vessel, its crew and contents 36 miles east of San Pedro.

In what is described as an exchange of gunfire, one of the boat's occupants identified as Honduran national Jesus Castillo Orellano was shot. He along with his companions San Pedranos: 25-year-old William Martinez, 25-year-old Kevin Lincoln Smith, 45-year-old Miguel Perez and 48-year-old Francisco Nunez were detained by Mexican authorities and taken to Cozumel. Mexican authorities found 1,350 kilos or 2976 pounds of suspected cocaine inside the boat. They also found a rifle, two pistols, a satellite phone, two cell phones, and radios as well as a GPS system.

Police sources note that it is one of the first major drug seizures on the open seas to have an almost all Belizean crew. The men all live on San Pedro and are believed to have transferred the drugs from a Colombian vessel in the open seas and were then bringing it back to San Pedro for further conveyance to Mexico, when they ran into Belize's drug squad, who chased them back into international waters. They remain in Mexican custody in Cozumel, and as we understand it, will remain there for criminal proceedings.

Glad they were caught.

I'm very glad they were caught, no matter whose neighbours they may be. Given the misery they were about to impart to their fellow man, and the violence they were pre-prepared to inflict to achieve their ends, there should only be one sentence. Regardless what the Privy Council in London might say.

So much for the "theory" that crime is not being committed by San Pedronos.

Just because they live on San Pedro doesn't mean they're San Pedranos.

I think there are some Perez's and Nunez's that would disagree with you.

...and Paisano is Palestinian.

bywarren, an apology, I let my relationships with San Pedranos blind me to the fact that not everyone is as good as the people I spend my time with. You are totally correct.

Thanks, SimonB. My point, although I did not expand on it fully in the first post - for a reason, was to try and get people to look at this crime issue in the whole picture. We all love San Pedro and San Pedranos. But not all of San Pedro is perfect and not all San Pedranos are either. It is just like when crime was discussed earlier on the board, many chose to take the position that San Pedro is a great place because the crime is less than in Jamaica or elsewhere. But if the crime issue is to be resolved, it must be recognized for what it is and where the causes of it exist. It would be much easier to blame the crime only on the vagrants on AC. But if the crime issue is to be solved, there is a much broader picture to address. The community must take a "realistic look in the mirror". When San Pedro was the place I love to remember, it was totally crime free. I believe that was a direct result of the attitude of the community. And it is great to see the community rally against crime now. But let's not just take the easy way and accept some crime because it is less here than elsewhere, or only blame it on the vagrant issue. Lets set the community standard that no crime is acceptable in San Pedro by anyone because that is the way San Pedranos are. I am not willing to accept that San Pedro judge itself relative to Jamaica or any other place. I hope it will set the standard based on the way it was. That might seem like a high and difficult standard to meet, but I firmly believe that a community like San Pedro can achieve that.

bywarren ,damn ,you are good.. you are right on the money again ..

Are the facts straight on this bust?
How do you fit over 2 tons of powder, people, and equipment on a skiff? Maybe a charter boat, but a skiff? Wouldn't the amount of money the SP boys carried to the deal have been in the 10's of millions US? If all facts are true that means that some San Pedrano's have world wide Cartel connections. I'm with Warren on this issue, the crime problem starts with the privileged and oozes down to the riff raff.

Have you seen the size of the skiff used at Aqua Dives? That was a drug boat that they found abandoned on the outer cayes, looks like it could haul a decent load.

Abondoned planes are found on mainland areas.
Abandoned boats off shore.

Those with big money are able to abandon!
Watch for the extra gold.....it's visable.
Watch the tourists head for the gold.
There's going to be some sad tourists.
Thank goodness!

Some interesting info that my twin brother learned from people he knows. The skiffs can carry 1000 kilos. The captain gets paid around $150,000US per run. There are two mates on board that get around $50,000. And there is the forth person, the "baby sitter" that works for the cartel and is in charge of seeing the drugs get where they are going and the money gets paid. Most of these people are from Nicarauga. If they get caught, the penalty in 10 years and they are out in 3. And while in jail they are living as good as they would be at home and there family is taken care of. Too much money and too much temptation.

One of my comments posted on another board (www.koncas.com)

"Now if I am required to explain the difference between local violent crimes and international drug trafficing on the high seas, I shouldn't waste memory on Konca's servers. Belize has ALWAYS profitted by illicit trafficing, learn your history not offered in books. It was either GUNS in the various wars including the US Civil War, BOOZE during the US Prohibition, WEED in the 80s, COKE in the 90s to present as well as TERRORISTS and ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. Being a border nation to NAFTA makes it impossible to stop."

1,250 kilos, 3 islanders, 1 Honduranian. Just shipping agents, not their stuff, wholesale value $US37,500,000. Value in Colombia $US1,250,000.00.

Happening for a long time, search "cocaine wet drops" on google, and will continue to happen, like sharks teeth.

SIN

The Honduran is a "local", married to a San Pedrana. Father of 2 San Pedranos.

So, an all Belizean/Island group locked up in a Mexican prison. I've heard you can live like a king in Mexican jail if you have somebody on the outside to pay the bills. I guess they need to hope that the US doesn't attempt to extradite them to the States.

What would merit the US authorities extraditing Belizeans from Mexican custody to the US?

Nothing I can think of to warrant extradition - unless there are some type of conspiracy allegations linking the arrestees w/ US citizens.
Recall a report that 75% of the cocaine headed for US goes through Guatemala and Belize gets a fair share of the trafficing as well.
White Lobster.

The international war on drugs. The DEA/Coast Guard was also involved in the pursuit. The eventual destination for the coke is the US.

You know these guys have been in the DEA sites for years - they just have to be caught red handed with the goods.

It's actually a US led "War on Drugs", a campaign started by Nancy Reagan in the 80's. Most (if not all) countries aided by the US have joined in this fight, at least on a superficial level. Ref: Mario Villanueva ex Governor of Quintana Roo, Mx.

Anything outside of 12 miles (from the coast) is within US Jurisdiction. Which is irrelevant anyhow, if the US Gov. has warrants for you, they will get you, one way or the other.

For Belize, US and Mex to all jointly find these guys, some 30 miles offshore, with a major player aboard, lends one to believe an investigation was under way for some time now. I would fail to believe they would pinch this crew withouth knowing all the details on the run(s).

SIN

SIN, you stated major player. Which one was the major player?

Your last sentence in the above post, please explain. Thanks

Crazy?

On the last sentence above. I doubt three different countries would just happen to spot this boat 30 miles offshore, at night, with a major load of uncut coke aboard.

From what I know (very limited) the US agencies will investigate for months and sometimes years before they grab someone. They want to have all the details, connections, starting and ending points, middle men, means of travel, fueling, etc... before they net the small fish. I can't see them investing in such a sting which will, at the most, give them four boat captains and a TINY TINY TINY dent in the amount of cocaine crossing the southern border of the US.

Just as a side point, a poll, not a personal view. Will importation of illegal drugs ever be stopped when the US (1/10 of the global population) is the largest consumer of these subtances in the World? Will small time dealers stop offering drugs to tourists here in Belize, when over 1/2 of such visitors do purchase?

SIN

Amanda, I know the Honduranian that you mention, he and his brother managed to rob us a least twice. Was picked up on robbery charges a little over a year ago and didn't serve a minute.

Thanks, I know this subject is difficult.
Ok, they must have known all the details.

Not sure who is the keeper of the records, to show which population is the largest consumer.

You say, 1/2 of the such visitors do purchase. Again who is the keeper of that record, or is that an excuse for the small time dealers?

Not an excuse, but a little ole' common sense.

I wouldn't sell timeshare if EVERYBODY said "NO".

It doesn't make these small time crooks "correct" or right for selling illegal narcotics. It's illegal in Belize and to most morally unacceptable. It does help to put in to perspective who is to blame.

Drugs would not be offered to visitors if drugs were not used by visitors.

Colombia would be shut down if the millions of folks in the US stopped using.



SIN

According to the US Dept of Defense cocaine consumption in the US has fallen from 400 metric tons in 1990 (80% of the world wide consumption) to 300 MT in 2000 (50% of ww consumption).

The rest of the world is just catching up.

So for 600+ MT produced in 2000, 50% was consumed in the US.

This was five years ago. The past five years have witnessed a "re-birth" of the cocaine epedemic. Useage is up in the US and also globally.

Defense Link

SIN

Sin, I want to understand you.

So let me try, ok US consumers, are the only consumers keeping Colombia open for business?

US has also caused a major addiction in people living on Ambergis, too? Because the visitors buy on Ambergis?

US needs to blame all the countries between US border and Colombia, for US addiction? I think NOT. Each person is responsible for their actions, not others.

Peace

SIN - interesting link - I agree: as long as there is demand there will be supply and US appears to provide the bulk of the demand. Like most things the issue is a little more complicated though - supply is also linked to a lack of alternatives for the suppliers. An example is the coffee industry. Mennonite Central Committee, one of the world's largest relief organizations, has a program which helps central american farmers get fair trade prices for their crops. Due to falling prices paid for coffee (a lack of fair trade) in many areas of the world, and especially central america, farmers have turned to illicit crops such as coca (used to make cocaine) in order to make a living wage. When US and other industralized countries are unwilling to pay fair prices for products produced elsewhere there are widespread ramifications. We are all interconnected. Chloe's also correct, we are all also responsible for every action we take.

Missin' the point here amiga or misunderstanding me.

I'm not blaming the US, althogh the CIA did flood LA with cocaine in the 80's (diffent topic for that one).

Are gun manufacturers and/or dealers to blame for the bloodshed found within the US or the people purchasing such weapons? So in this case it is the USER (of such weapon) who has responsibility. Why the difference with drugs. The US provides a HUGE market for this shit. It was the US and European scientists that invented it! Freud was in love with it and Coca Cola promoted it nationwide. I'm simply asking (questioning), where does the majority of the blame fall? With the users OR 300+ metric tons or the countries that are manufacturing and trafficing it? Pehaps both?? --- chicken, egg ------

If so, where to focus the tax payers dollars to curb drug abuse? With the user or the supplier? No user - no suppliers. No supplier = new supplier around the corner.

I plainly stated "visitors". I stated a fact that drugs are for sale because THEY ARE USED here. No mention of local addicts? I don't think we have a major addiction here. Lost me on that one. Lots of folks smoke weed here, some use coke, but I wouldn't blame that on their interaction with visitors or tourists. Although I would have to say I never used Ecstacy until given by a guest staying at a hotel where I was working.

Bob Marley - "I throw me corn, but call no fowl"

SIN

Don't put yourself in harms way for the US cocaine market. Find another way to earn money.

Keep yourself and your neighbors safe, don't help us so much, we obviously have plenty cocaine already.

Not meant to be flip, I truly feel that way.

Who are you addressing? The guys who are presently in a Mexican jail? The ones who have nice big homes here and nice new cars?

I noted people that I had met and talked with years ago on Ambergris, had changed so much when I returned. I inquired of others, WHAT is going on with them, they are not the people I knew before. COCAINE was the reply.

I knew the US was to blame. I just knew it...

Your comment is very helpful, as usual.

Sort of like this?

Exactly! A true statement...

I think we should just adopt Singapore's policy. Wouldn't bother me in the least. Truthfully. In the US and Belize.

Izzat better? Other suggestions?

Interesting debate, but what still frosts me is that one of the perps has been caught in robberys and petty theft on the island in the past, with little or no consequence. On to bigger and better things it seems.

What does Singapore have that the US doesn't?
Punishments prescribed under the Singapore Penal Code are: death; imprisonment; forfeiture of property; fine; and caning. Apart from these penalties, habitual offenders may be sentenced to corrective and reformative training, preventive detention.

I haven't seen anything to suggest they are meeting with results any better than US and there has been a striking increase in prison population, which could mean that judges in
Singapore have preferred to use imprisonment more frequently or could just mean that they are handing out longer sentences. Either way - no notable decrease in crime.

L&T - once again, right on the money. Without prevention and early intervention "little crimes" almost inevitably become "big crimes."

Oh - duh - guess what Singapore has that US doesn't is caning - still no appreciable benefits I'm aware of.

When I was down last year my fishing poles were stolen from my front porch...I complained....I was told it was cute.....that I should not leave stuff out, it is an invitation ....to me it is theft/tresspassing...the local attitude needs to be reversed or things will get much worse..In my opinion there is an internal problem on the island...clean up your own house first....My opinion

dex, that is very true. The whole island has to change our attitude about theft. We've taken a permissive stance far too long. Now, I also worry that as people began to feel more threatened by violence etc. we may find citizens arming themselves for protection. Another new set of problems comes with that scenario.

Too late...they are and have been. To be legal it's an expensive proposition. Annual gun permit fee is $500

Wholeheartedly behind this last point. There is a culture of theft, plus the childish one of "not telling" on someone you see stealing. Sometimes feels like a conspiracy.

Well. just have to tell you my big mistake. Last year when I was fed up with Charile stealing my orchids, decided I would go online and order handcuffs, with the idea that if I caught him, would cuff him to my cart and drag his happy ass to town. Not a good idea, still getting spams wanting me to buy the whips, chains, and leather!

Dear Lovey
The next time you are in the market for law enforcement equipment please let me know - hubby's in the field. In the meantime - could you please forward me a couple of those wibsites

Law, Yes, I would like some advise from your hubby on a couple of things. Incidentally, never have apprehended Charlie, but Thurston and I are having a ball

Supply and demand will always keep these guys in business..

Lovey it is well documented that small crimes lead to big crimes when all they get is a slap on the wrist..No Fear so why not?

It all goes back to Knowing RIGHT from Wrong and having the FEAR of Impending Doom from (fill in the blank)it you play you should Pay and Pay dearly....

I doubt we will ever win the war on drugs here in the US so what are the boards thoughts on legalizing it,taxing it and putting the growers out of business when their crops are not worth a hellva lot ??.

Legalize it..........Bob was right all along!!

Booze during prohibition made organized crime millions. It's no secret why drugs are being kept "taboo" and illegal.

If for some reason big business no longer controlled the free world, illicit drugs could be made legal and taxes and controlled similar to booze and tobacco (ATF to ATF&N for narcotics).

Prices could maintain giving less to the cartels and more to the farmers and taxing agencies.

Imagine, like John Lennon, just wishful thinking.

SIN

lovey,
david & i will be there soon, , , , , do you still have the handcuffs?

how is it that when you talk to SOME san pedranos about the drug bust incident and shooting at the law enforcement officers,they take part for the guys involved,as if it was ok what they did.on the other hand if it would of been outsiders,they would have had a vigil about the crime .i am a sanpedrano and proud of the island but wrong is wrong and they should be punished..

I'd say that some of the "legal" drugs are pretty big problems in society - ask the families of alcoholics and/or the victims of drunk-drivers.

Dear San Pedrana, I applaude you for your stance. I like to think most San Pedranos feel as you do. That is the only hope we have for taking back the island from those who would turn us in to an armed camp. you can be a powerful voice in the fight.

What on Earth is everyone arguing about? Nice job by Belizean law enforcement with admirable cooperation from their Mexican counterparts.

Good job by them.

nj ..... I don't understand your comment. I reread the entire thread and did not see all the arguing you refer to, just up front debate. Thats what this is for.

E !

I understand it is just up front debate, I just want to try to shift the focus on giving some credit to the law enforcement folks who did a good job.

One can always move to Amsterdam.

I agree.. drugs are bad of course... but typically people that do them harm themselves more than anyone else.. Robbery is the express act of harming others....yet still gets MUCH less attention!

I don't know about Belize, but in England most crime is committed by youths aged 14-19, and much of that is nowadays drug-related. So anyone who pushes drugs is very directly affecting the lot of ordinary people.

In Florida it's 16-24 mostly. When you figure crack babies started showing up in the schools in 1990, it's easy to see that this is the second generation affected by crack. Let's not forget the kids of the drug users and pushers. One of the kids I work with was running crack for his Mom on the streets at 7. Others are neglected at best, often abused, even sexually abused by the guys Mom keeps around to keep her in drugs. These kids are emotionally and physically scarred, and may never grow up to be productive adults. Something needs to be done.

Some of the best information on the " BIG PICTURE" of drugs, U.S./Mex Banking and CIA involvment in Central America can be found at these two sites : www.fromthewilderness.com/free/pandora/courage.html and www.NarcoNews.com which include reports from Al Giordano of the Mexican daily - POR ESTO ....It's interesting that citibank bought Roberto Hernandez Ramirezes' BanaMex . Where did Vincente Fox celibrate his victory after being elected ? at Roberto H.Ramirezes' Haciendia in Cancun... Roberto Ramirez has been exposed as one of the biggest drug traffic/financiers/launderboys of Central America; and while all this tends to "BANKRUPT" The Americas some blame tourists ....I would bet that in two weeks that "haul" finds it's way to the coast of Arkansaw...and that Bill Clinton gets his share.

I doubt Clinton is getting his share of anything but the royalties on his book.
No one pushed more drugs through Central/South America than the Reagan administration with Ollie North and the Contras, but then again some folks like revisionist history.
And the Bushs', nah, don't even want to go there.
Heading to SP tomorrow and the current crook and war monger is the last thing on my mind.
Peace.

Capatilism at it's best!

I thought it ironic how Ronald Reagan's economic policy (no more Belizean sugar imports) directly affected Nancy's "War on Drugs".

Sugar cane was replaced with Marijuana, a more profitable export. Orange Walk was THE PLACE in the 80's!! I can still show you the airstrips where the Menonites would load cargo JETS full of this cash crop (Blue Creek area).

Does anyone remember the steel poles on each side of the straight stretches of the Northern Highway?

SIN

I remember seeing straight stretches of the highway being "torn up" with temporary turnouts every so often ...rumored to be done by the gov't ( both BZ and US)in attempts to stop light planes from flying in and landing on the highway.

Never heard of the Mennonite connection though....seems a little far fetched, but who knows.

I was shocked when I heard of the Mennonite connection too but it's true. Gangsta's - who woulda thought? My friend in the BDF used to tell some stories!

I am Mennonite and also heard of this when it occurred in the late 1990's. It was a cause of sadness in our church. I don't know a lot of details but heard it was a small group of Mennonites from Mexico transporting primarily to Canada. Mennonite, much like Jew, is a term descriptive of either/both a faith and an ethnic heritage. Just as all Jews do not practice the Jewish faith, not all Mennonites practice the Mennonite faith.

yeah, I know a couple of Amish dudes that deal coke in Lancaster, PA.

What a bummer. Not only do I find out that some San Pedranos break the law, now you tell me that Jews, Mennonites and Amish do also.

Guess nothings sacred when the fear of any God dosen't even work over the Power of money...

...drugs have ruined countless lives. ...so, let's make it legal???

Bill, that logic is far too complicated for some to understand. :rolleyes:

...alcohol has ruined countless lives. ...so, let's make it illegal???

drugs aren't legal?? (cough...cough....), oops thought I was in Amsterdam again!!

Just picked up this book at (plug--what a cool place) Image Spot in Belize City.
Out of It: A cultural History of Intoxication its an in depth read on why people get blotto, documented historically, with a bit about productivity in the work force, religious zeal and the formation of laws, crime and punishment... such topics... a thick read, but so far interesting.

Dear readers, I've just read all the crap and opinions you've posted concerning the 5 persons in jail. It's ver sad to hear how you all can judge others. We are all humans and we have feelings just like you if you have any. There's only one person fir to judge and that is God. Remember that we all have a tail. Not all that glitters now will be forever. Your lives can change with the blink of an eye. I hope that the same way you have a black heart to judge, the same way you help the families behind to pay their bank, because there are lots of bills behind.Try to live and let live. Remember that many people like you come Belize, and we don't even know what you are running from or hiding. Like the Marley saying: "Who the cap fits, let them wear it." Interested

We know these people and have lived with them for the past 20 years. Everybody knows that there are risks in life, and hopefully they were wise and have their families prepared in the case of this eventuality.

Many of us have lived the easy come, easy go lifestyle - an option that folks in the "real world" don't often get.

Sometimes our lifestyles catch up with us and we have to pay the price.

I am sure most people on this thread have sympathetic feelings for the wives and children of the 5 guys - but all are entitled to opinions and entitled to judge.

Live and let live - so long us you don't negatively impact my life and my ability to provide for my kids and my ablity to pay my bills!

Thanks for giving us your direct point of view. I hope all is and goes well in your quiet world or appearance. You are right. we are all entitled to give our point of view. Just as you've known them for the past 20 years doesn't mean that we don't know you. I hope you can provide for your family always, because you never know what tomorrow might bring. Now you are happy, but tomorrow we never know.

I applogize if I don't get you "Interested". Amanda will be fine because it sounds like she doesn't break the law which is what these guys did. We'll ALL be fine as long as we don't break the law(s). These guys committed serious crimes! I don't get what you're saying. Someone please explain to me!!!!!!!!!!

P.S. They should have put some of their "earnings" aside for times like this, to pay bills. (I can't believe I'm giving advise about drug sellers). Good grief! :rolleyes:

Member 7526 - I'm not trying to acertain anything to anyone. I'm giving my point of view just as they are. About breaking the law, no one is perfect. You don't know who does or who doesn't, because they will not tell you. Of course these are serious crimes, but let the law do their work instead of others talking and saying things that they are not 100% of. Another thing, stop being sarcastic about giving advice to "drug dealers", because you yourself might have something to hide, and none of you were there to acertain what happened. Let the law do their job and stop speculating. God ---- it!

P.S I can't believe I have to deal with people like this, but I know they exist.

Wow, getting a little heavy. I can definitely say, I am no longer "Interested" in this thread.

Hey Angela Carr - law breaking is for kids and bad guys. I don't think I could handle the stress! I must admit it is a little boring at times, but I am getting quite used to being law abiding.

Sorry Interested, but I'll save my tears for the countless families torn apart by drugs and the innocent newborns I've watched go thru withdrawl because Mom was doing coke. Cocaine that was put out on the street by those 5 "upstanding" citizens.

Too funny Amanda.

I am still confused. Sounds like "Interested" thinks that most of us break the law. I think quite the opposite. Yes it's true that no one will admit it but I can't imagine that a many people do more than speed, in a car (the people that I know). I wonder what kind of people Interested spends time with. Certainly not law abiding citizens! That would just be crazy!

Or is Interested refering to the Apocolypse?

I believe they make legal drugs for folks that are always looking on the dark side. Depression is a sad state of affairs - I prefer my rose coloured glasses.

Your life is what you make of it and how you choose to live it. This includes being prepared for the rainy days.

Be positive, stay healthy, always be prepared and if you can't see life this way .... seek help.

So true Amanda, Life can be so good when we take responisbility for our own actions.Think we just have to focus on keeping our neighborhood crime free and a place where our kids and grandkids can live without worry. Don't forget our birthday is coming up and of course we our older and "wiser". Lovey

Thanks again you all for your nice comments. Again, it's all speculation after speculation. Now, of course you have rose coloured glasses. keep it that way. I just hope you never forget your dark past. And for you all interested in the topic... I'm closing down for today. Topics and debates will continue. Bye!

Money + greed + drugs = violence
violence = robbery + murder
robbery + murder affects EVERYONE -

How selfish of them to harm others by having ANYTHING to do with these drugs under the guise of 'taking care' of their families. BS

No Excuse for it. PERIOD. No dark past. No rose coloured glasses either.

Arrogance, greed, aire of invincability, show off. Traits of the small timer thinking they made the big time. They aren't hard to spot.
When one shows up at the gas station with alot of empty drums to be filled, It's doubtful that they are going night snorkeling.
They are now at a place were the husband sucks the 300# wifes %&*#.

They're families now suffer.

Lovey - birthday lunch at El Divino! See you there.

Money + greed + drugs = Capitalism.

Arrogance, greed, aire of invincability, show off = GEORGE W. BUSH

How comes people are allowed to fry their livers and rot their lungs but to explode their heart is illegal? Is one level of addiction better or worse than another?

SIN

Interesting information on "levels of addiction." http://www.lpo.org/Tools/DrugProhibitionPDFs/Addictive%20Qualities%20of%20Popular%20Drugs.pdf

Right on, SIN!!!!! Bravo, well put!

Correction to all you non-Europeans: Drugs are NOT legal in Amsterdam, Holland. Sale of hash and pot to be consumed on the premises is legal at the licensed "coffe shops". Quite many American tourists have learned this the hard way. The Dutch authorities (like any other country with any sense) are very tough on drug smugglers and dealers.
Anyone who thinks that crack, cocaine etc. is to be compared to tobacco, pot and alcohol should have their head examined.

Dear "Interested", with all due respect - you're an idiot if you think that the only one who can judge is (your?) God. Tell that to the crack babies and the families who have had their lives destroyed by drugs, designed to make greedy people rich - people who do not get the concept of doing an honest day's work and be proud of it.
A drug dealer is not a service provider. It is a greedy a-hole with no respect for other people's lives and well-being. Get a job!

Well, I rarely post messages on this board, but this is actually a very serious issue that we need to deal with. Drug trafficing is not a romantic and exotic trade. "Scarface" might be one of my all-time favorite movies, but that could partly be because the "hero" gets wiped out by bullets.

The drug trafficers could rot forever in Mexican jails for all I care.

Ebbe, If you see this, could you give me your website. I seem to have lost the info you gave me. We'll be home Tues. Judy

Absolutely! It is www.matagrandestudios.com
See ya...

compassion + freedom + determination=GWB

arrogance, show off =FRANCE

Sorry SIN

drugs usage escalaltes and leads to violence and harm to others. Alcohol and cig PRIMARILY hurt the user. drugs have a larger effect on others.

Wyoming Carla,
Very nice....concise and to the point... I also don't have a "dark past" or own a pair of coloured glasses....

Ever lived with an alcoholic? Ever burried a child killed by a drunk driver? Is alcohol a gateway drug. If not, is it part of the solution or part of the problem?

Make a rule, die by the rule. "No drugs" is a great stance and should include all chemical drugs including alcohol and nicotine and tobacco. But for the Gov't of the day to regulate how we kill ourselves or what poisons we consume is democracy? Protecting the user, those around him or the tobacco and liquor industries?

Splecs, no needs for apologies to just me, the remainder of the world should be apologized to as well.



SIN

I don't understand most of this. We're talking about people who went out secretly at night armed to the teeth, with the intention of shooting themselves out of trouble if they were apprehended (as indeed happened). Their objective was to make an indecent amount of money virtually directly ruining other peoples' lives. How can anyone have the remotest sympathy for them? Does it matter that there are other people doing other anti-social things? Perhaps we shouldn't punish men guilty of wife-battering because we should be grateful they didn't kill their wives?

Think they're pissed because it was such a lousy 401K plan.