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Joined: Apr 2002
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Either susangg did not read the CDNN ACT NOW campaign or she needs a refresher course in basic reading skills. Cyber Diver has not asked the diving public to join a boycott of Belize. Here's what Cyber Diver says:

"MAKE A DIFFERENCE - ACT NOW!"

"Write government officials in Belize and the United States and demand full and open accountability for Peter Hughes Diving, and justice for the families of the Wave Dancer victims. You may use this letter or write your own. Be sure to fill in your name and home or business address in the body of the letter. Finally, enter your correct email address and click on ACT NOW. The letter will automatically be sent to all of the recipients listed at the top of the letter."

Clearly, Cyber Diver is urging people to speak out on behalf of accountability and justice, NOT A BOYCOTT. They leave it to you as to how much leverage you want to attach to your letter.

In my case, I cut some of the letter and added my own personal thoughts but I left the final paragraph stating that I will not travel to Belize until a proper investigation has been completed. Consumer boycotts are only effective if those who are targeted understand that there a price to be paid for ignoring (in this case) public safety. I'm sorry if that bothers some of you but it's how I feel. I will not go to Belize until it is clear to me that government officials have not been paid off to ignore the deaths of 20 people including two Belizeans and my friend.

Cyber Diver has left it open to each of you to respond according to your own conscience. Based on what many of you have said here, you agree with Cyber Diver that we must at least "demand full and open accountability for Peter Hughes Diving, and justice for the families of the Wave Dancer victims."

Please listen to your hearts and join this campaign so that the lives of the 20 people who died on the Wave Dancer are not lost in vain.

Bob

I just want to add that targeting government officials in Belize (and Washington) is appropriate for two reasons:

1. Government officials in Belize (not Hughes) are responsible for ensuring that a complete and thorough investigation is conducted into the causes of the Wave Dancer deaths.

2. Boycotting Hughes before a proper investigation has been completed is nothing more than a public lynching. Wisely I believe, Cyber Diver has targeted government officials, not Hughes.

Having said that, it is my personal opinion at this time based upon the available evidence that Hughes is not a responsible boat operator. Everything, including the decision to resume operations in Belize just a few weeks after 20 people were drowned aboard Wave Dancer, points to corporate greed and criminal negligence. I will NEVER book a trip aboard a Peter Hughes dive boat.

[This message has been edited by Bob Goodman (edited 04-04-2002).]

Joined: Sep 2000
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Bob: I don't know how much contact you have with Belize. I have been coming to Belize for eleven years and my husband and I have owned property there for almost that long. I suspect that I know more about Belize than you, but since I don't know "who" you are, I cannot be sure.
We agree that Hughes engaged in gross misconduct. However, what you lack understanding of (and the letter I read at the Cyberdiver site DID call for a boycott, of travel to Belize; perhaps its now been altered, if so I am glad of that) is a basic understanding of how the Belize government operates, and who would be harmed by the proposed boycott.
If your contention is that tourists should not visit places where there is government corruption, I hope you like staying home, because that is where you will be doing your diving! I don't know many places in the world where there is no corruption, or where governments make bad decisions based on questionable criteria. (Even the US...perhaps we should call for a boycott of US tourism because our corrupt Congress has refused to make airlines safet to fly.)
As I attempted to explain to you, the Belize government does not make decisions on matters like who to issue permits to based upon either the views of its citizens or safety practices.
These liveaboards bring very little money into the Belize economy. We should be encouraging people to come to Belize, stay somewhere locally, and go on day trips with the many fine dive operators on Ambergris Caye, Caye Caulker, Placencia Peninsula, etc. and refrain from booking a trip on liveaboards. I can guarantee you that nothing any government does will cause corporations like Hughes to become more safety conscious...but the buying public can influence them by not buying.
Again, I urge you to focus your calls for a boycott on the people who they are most likely to affect and who are responsible for what happened.


Susan Guberman-Garcia, Attorney at Law. Phone: 510-792-2639
Fax/Voicemail:: 510-405-2016 Email: [email protected]
Joined: Apr 2002
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Susan, I get the impression you are looking for an excuse not to participate in an open-ended campaign that calls for justice and accountability. Such apathy will do nothing to support Belize's tourism industry.

Or maybe you are just confused about how this consumer action campaign works. The targeted officials receive letters from many individuals as opposed to one letter from Cyber Diver signed by many individuals. While it is true that the vast majority of participants will probably send the sample letter as written stating that the sender will not visit Belize until designated officials fulfill their responsibilities to investigate the Wave Dancer deaths, many will also change the letter (as I did) to suit their own requirements. As I mentioned in my previous post, Cyber Diver encourages participants to do exactly that. Read again Cyber Diver's instructions about how to use the CDNN ACT NOW form (which you seem to have missed in my previous post):

"MAKE A DIFFERENCE - ACT NOW!"

"Write government officials in Belize and the United States and demand full and open accountability for Peter Hughes Diving, and justice for the families of the Wave Dancer victims. You may use this letter or write your own. Be sure to fill in your name and home or business address in the body of the letter. Finally, enter your correct email address and click on ACT NOW. The letter will automatically be sent to all of the recipients listed at the top of the letter."

There is nothing here about being required to send the letter as written or an obligation to endorse a consumer boycott. So rewrite it and send it to reflect your opinion that Hughes was grossly negligent and should be investigated.

In my case, I sent the letter with some changes, however, I left the final paragraph which states that I will not visit Belize until government officials fulfill their responsibilities to thoroughly investigate the Wave Dancer deaths.

The argument some people make against boycotts (and trade sanctions) demonstrates why they are so effective. The fact that boycotts inflict financial pain is exactly why they can make a difference that benefits everyone in the long run. Look at South Africa and Fiji to understand why apathetic or corrupt officials make positive changes when they are made to understand that unacceptable policies will not be tolerated.

In this case, the question is whether the diving community will accept apathy or corruption in Belize that necessarily endangers their lives. I certainly hope not. Governments and their maritime safety agencies are responsible for ensuring that commercial passenger carrying vessels comply with safety certification requirements. They are responsible for investigating the causes of injury or death aboard the vessels they certify to carry passengers for a fee. When they fail to fulfill their responsibilities and obligations to the public, everyone is affected and the damage is often far worse than the impact of a consumer boycott.

You are dead wrong when you state that government officials cannot force operators of commercial passenger vessels to comply with their safety requirements. And I suspect many in the diving community have already concluded that the Wave Dancer deaths stemmed from problems inherent not only to how Peter Hughes operates his vessels, but to apathetic or corrupt government officials in Belize. The appearance of government maritime safety authorities winking at Peter Hughes after the deaths of 20 people only serves to drive safety-conscious dive travelers elsewhere.

That's why, if you want to support the Belize tourism industry, you will also support Cyber Diver's campaign demanding justice and accountability.

Bob Goodman

Joined: Mar 2001
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Well stated Bob Goodman. I am surprised to hear such sensable words coming from a "wingnut, straight jacket wearing nut who needs to be locked up somewhere". LOL

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Well Bob...Like I said, I don't "know" you but I'll betcha that I was organizing political actions and compaigns when you were still a gleam in your mama's eye..

The problem is not MY lack of understanding of the power of the boycott or of letter writing..the problem is YOUR lack of understanding of how the Belizeans who are involved in the tourism industry live and work. Your knowledge seems (again, I don't "know" you) to be from a long distance vantage point.

I would like to invite you to sit down with one of the local dive boat owners, who has put in his time working as crew, saving his money for 10 years until he could buy his own boat and launch his own business...and tell him why you want to bankrupt him because you don't like something the Belize government did or did not do. Ask him if he thinks its a cool idea to do that.
If you are not willing to do that you oughtn't to be calling for a boycott.

You see, when you call for boycotts, you need to move out of the world of the theoretical and into the real world of the day to day working person and see how your plan will impact him or her.
You should also be willing to take some guidance from the local people before you start "helping" them. Ask THEM what they think of your plans.

If there was a desire by Belizeans to have gringos like you start a boycott of Belize to protest abuses by liveaboard companies, don't you think you would know about it?
How many ordinary working folk in the tourist industry have told you they support such a boycott? I will bet its a big fat ZERO.
Take a lesson from one of the most successful boycotts in history: the Alabama bus boycott. Do you think it would have been successful if it had been started by white people from outside? No! It worked because the decision to boycott was made by the local community, who weighed the risks and benefits and started to march ahead.

If you want to launch a boycott of an American company, or a letter writing campaign to urge the Belize government to impose conditions upon re-licensing that company, that's fine. But supporting a boycott of the working people of Belize is not appropriate unless the Belizeans want you to do that.

And I don't think they do. I don't think you've asked them. And that is my point.


Susan Guberman-Garcia, Attorney at Law. Phone: 510-792-2639
Fax/Voicemail:: 510-405-2016 Email: [email protected]
Joined: Mar 2001
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Bob,Susangg, et al: I am disapointed that this discussion has turned into a debate on the credibility of Cyberdiver and the effects and or need for a boycott of Belize. The original post adressed the concerns that the investigation, or lack of, and the allowing of Peter Hughes to resume operations before the completion of and findings of the investigation were finished. It seems that most of the people contributing to this discussion have a common goal, what is best for Belize and the people who visit Belize. I look at what a person writes. It does not matter to me if, or how many times, he has visited Belize or what his nationality is. If that were the criteria, Piasano would have the last word. This is a very important subject that deserves imput from as many people that care to. So, let's keep the debate going and try to focus on the objecitves that are important. It might be a case of the end justifies the means, and it doe's not matter who the messanger is, if the message is correct.

Joined: Apr 2000
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All of us are reading, but not replying.
Keep us updated on the information. Thanks


Dare To Deviate
Joined: Apr 2002
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I agree Warren and I also appreciate your positive contribution to this discussion. It is an extremely important issue and I have carefully avoided being lured into meaningless and distracting comparisons based on 'who got here first', 'who has been here the longest', etc. There is far too much of this posturing on message boards and as you suggest, such crude strategems tend to impede the discussion rather than persuade.

My advice to Susan would be to climb down off the anti-boycott soapbox before it collapses under the weight of scrutiny. It should be obvious to you and everyone else following this discussion that I am not "calling for a boycott". If you carefully review the CDNN ACT NOW campaign, you will understand that neither is Cyber Diver.

Each of us must do what our conscience dictates and Cyber Diver has left us plenty of latitude to do exactly that.

Susan, correct me if I am wrong but I have the distinct impression that you will not participate in any campaign that even begins to suggest that things are not as they should be in Belize. Your fixation on the final sentence or two of Cyber Diver's sample letter as if it were chiseled in stone appears to be a smokescreen to cover up the same moral deficiency that has apparently led authorities in Belize to cave into business interests, rather than conduct a thorough investigation of what caused so many deaths aboard the Wave Dancer.

It's very sad and disappointing when people become so obsessed with business as usual and the bottom line that they are willing to overlook fundamental problems that threaten public safety.

Twenty people died in Belize last October aboard a commercial passenger carrying vessel inspected, certified and registered by the government of Belize. The dead deserve more than a wink from maritime safety authorities who appear to share your concern about disrupting Belize's tourism industry.

As I have already suggested, the irony is that killing the investigation will do far more to harm Belize's tourism industry. That's why you should get off your soapbox and support the CDNN ACT NOW campaign with a letter that will tell authorities exactly why YOU feel an investigation of the Peter Hughes Wave Dancer deaths is imperative.

Bob

Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 717
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Gotta love this board!
You all know what they say about opinions,
.................Everyone has one!!
Richard

Joined: Sep 2000
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WellgGee Bob Goodman...I guess you've BUSTED me!
yup, that's me..."morally deficient," business-as-usual-bottom-line-obsessed, non-government-criticizing, cover-up-supporting,non-shit-disturbing little old me....I guess you got me!


Susan Guberman-Garcia, Attorney at Law. Phone: 510-792-2639
Fax/Voicemail:: 510-405-2016 Email: [email protected]
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