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#152468 05/14/03 08:22 AM
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got this update for those who follow it:

A little over a year after Belizean environmentalists, backed by NRDC, temporarily blocked construction of the proposed Chalillo dam in the Macal River valley, Fortis Inc., the Canadian corporation behind the dam, has contracted with a Chinese construction company and is preparing to begin building. And it seems that the company brokering the deal between Fortis and the Chinese builder is none other than AMEC, the engineering company that conducted the supposedly independent environmental assessment of the dam.

Fortis's latest push to start building followed a Belizean appeals court's refusal to overturn the government's approval of the dam. But Belizean environmentalists are appealing the decision further, arguing that AMEC's assessment was flawed and downplayed warnings by its own consultants about the dam's consequences for the region. Meanwhile NRDC and our partners are upping the pressure on Fortis in its Newfoundland home base, readying another legal challenge, and pressing AMEC to end its involvement in the construction of the dam. With the rainy season fast approaching, delays by AMEC or the contractor or imposed by the court would forestall the construction for several months.

Cameron Diaz Reaches Out to Protect the Macal River Valley
Spurred to action by a recent visit with NRDC to the threatened Macal River valley, actress Cameron Diaz wrote a letter urging the public to speak out before it's too late. "The rainforest home of the jaguar and the scarlet macaw stands on the brink of oblivion," says Diaz. "Its fate rests very briefly in our hands."

� HELP PREVENT CONSTRUCTION OF THE CHALILLO DAM by forwarding Cameron Diaz's letter and then sending a message to AMEC.

#152469 05/14/03 09:44 AM
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With only one more appeal pending to the Privy Counsel in London, all impediments to building the dam have been removed. If the process, by some miracle, is reversed it will be on the basis of the environmental impact study leaving the economics of building the dam to the fate of the future. Meanwhile, the light is green for go.

#152470 05/14/03 02:17 PM
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confused eek mad frown

#152471 05/16/03 04:40 PM
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We've been having continuous and VERY irritating power failures for the past 2 weeks now...the frequency and length of them seems to be increasing. These power failures cover most of Northern Belize, from Belize City up.

They,Belize Electricity Board, (BEL) are blaming faulty switches, the Mexican electricity supply, the dry season etc. etc. for the power outages.

HOWEVER! The theory that is beginning to circulate around Belize is that the BEL (owners Fortis of the Dam) are putting the squeeze on their customers to get public opinion swayed in favour of the dam.

Well, I run an Internet bar...it's really hard to make money while the power is out....I am now in favour of the dam. I'd actually prefer a small modern nuclear facility on some of that crappy marshland by the Western Highway..we could sell the excess power to Mexico, but I guess Belize is a little small for such a big project. BEL is a monoply and they win. Sorry scarlet macaw, your days are numbered.

#152472 05/17/03 10:18 AM
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Chris, don't give up the ship yet! How bout solar power?


Grace DeVita
#152473 05/17/03 12:32 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Grace:
Chris, don't give up the ship yet! How bout solar power?
And possibly wind-mills out in the cayes catching the sea-breezes........mel.


Mel Sinderman
#152474 05/17/03 01:09 PM
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With regards to windmills -in the early 80's a huge project was devised from Sotogrande to Algeciras (Southern spain)-it is still there today and it is quite scary driving on the coast road as you just here the thump thump of hundreds of space age looking windmills turning their respective blades/arms-especially when a gale starts blowing.
yes there is a point to this-it turns out that these windmills stopped various bird migrations,and a number of species have disappeared-there were calls for the windmills to be closed down but to no avail-we are talking here of one species with the dam.
Solar power -from what I have seen on a purely consumer construction level is bloody expensive to construct,and from the people that I know who have it do not think it provides cheaper power.
My vote is lets go with the dam

#152475 05/17/03 01:19 PM
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Solar power is very dirty in reality, despite what the greenies say.....banks and banks of lead acid batteries are needed just to power one house from solar power...imagine a whole island....how many TONS of lead acid batteries would be required, and they would have to be replaced every 3 - 5 years.

Wind power......you'd never get 24/7 electricity even from the many square miles of land you'd have to cover with ugly wind turbines, We have too many calm days....unless you went with those tons and tons of pesky batteries again. Also, I doubt wind generators would do too well in a hurricane, although watching a 35ft propeller whiz past one's house at 100MPH would certainly have good "shock video" entertainment value.

I think the idea of a Central American - owned (ie. costs and usage shared by interested countries of Central America) nuclear power station on the Western Highway is at least as daft or feasible (depending on your position on the Looney Meter) as solar or wind power for Belize. I like it (the nuclear idea) a lot!

#152476 05/17/03 06:45 PM
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As far as I{m concerned, let them build the thing half way, then blow it up. Just think of the positive impact on tourism. We can call it the Michael Ashcroft Ruins. mad

#152477 05/17/03 09:13 PM
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Intelligence is a gift but not to all

#152478 05/18/03 11:25 AM
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While we are on the energy-fuel topic on this string, are there any gasoline-alcohol plants in Belize ? Sugar cane juice inverts to high potent alcohol easily mixed with petrol. Could it ease some of the gasoline prices ? Best-Wishes-All, Mel........


Mel Sinderman
#152479 05/18/03 12:59 PM
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A project was just announced this last week to reopen the Libertad Sugar Mill to produce motor fuel.

#152480 05/21/03 07:16 PM
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Well, you dam supporters out there - I hope you like TAXES, because the dam deal is the most one sided contract I have ever heard of and the people of Belize will be taking it in the shorts for 50 years. (Not the pols, though, I am sure some Swiss bank accounts are nicely fattened these days..). This "deal" will bankrupt Belize and in the end, there will be no more power than there could have been with free and competitive enterprise, taking advantage of both old and new technologies, including solar, wind, bio fuels, fusion, and yes hydro power (but on a small scale, like Five Sisters Resort utilizes).
Instead you have a FIFTY YEAR MONOPOLY, paid for with borrowing and increasingly high taxes. The only people at risk are the people of Belize.


Susan Guberman-Garcia, Attorney at Law. Phone: 510-792-2639
Fax/Voicemail:: 510-405-2016 Email: [email protected]
#152481 05/21/03 11:13 PM
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Susangg: Betcha you're glad you moved to Panama where the government is 100% honest and everything is perfect.

#152482 05/22/03 12:25 PM
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Ha Ha Jesse, nice one!

susangg, how many Five Sisters-sized hydro plants would it take to power, say, Ambergris Caye? About 500 or so should see it done, right? How about Belize City, another 2000-3000 or so? Cayo would look really lovely with every 100ft of river sporting a little hydro plant.

The folly and myth of solar and wind power have already been dealt with on this thread.

Your suggestions are really just the rantings of a good clean-air tree-hugging liberal and not really practical or cost-effective for the purpose of providing a decent alternative to the dam. My nuclear power plant joke would work better than any of your suggestions and it is JUST a joke.

Speaking of tree-hugging liberals, how many acres of natural pristine bush and incidental wildlife did you wipe out to build your house in Panama?

I know you have a good brain, Susan...if you could just keep the underlying lefty politics out of your writings perhaps good WORKABLE ideas would flow.

#152483 05/22/03 02:12 PM
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Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness that created them.


If you must choose between two evils, pick the one you've never tried before.
#152484 05/22/03 04:10 PM
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We need power and all the we can get-maybe Panama will send us some for free or maybe a wacky lefty will leave billions of dollars to BEL so that they can operate for free.

#152485 05/22/03 04:43 PM
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By any means necessary-gotta keep Chris' internet business humming along regardless of the BIG PICTURE of all of the consequences the dam will have. It will bankrupt the country, but let's just live on the short term thinking/planning. Nevermind those pesky humans and wildlife who live in the valley, who have been living there forever, leaving light footprints on the landscape, but all the while LIVING well. Let's bring more trucks and cars to the island too! Maybe the country of Belize will soon be just like Dallas!

#152486 05/22/03 07:52 PM
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I have an idea let us all go back to the eighteenth century and I can be the robber baron.You lot can be the serfs that have to keep me in the style I want to become accustomed to.

#152487 05/22/03 07:55 PM
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Hey Anthropy, I don't own or run a vehicle, just a push bicycle. Or had you not noticed? How about you, do you live here and if you do, do you own a golf cart?

As for the rest of your post: you're right, let's keep my Internet cafe going, after all I pay my electric bill every month. Question is, how to generate reliable 24/7 electricity for Belize as the country grows.

If you don't want to know my own SERIOUS solution to the problem stop reading now. For the rest of you it is: bring in enough modern gas or diesel turbine generators to provide Belize with electricity now and well into the future. Increase the cost of electricity by whatever percent is needed so that this can be paid for. I would be willing to pay increased bills, question is, would everyone else? After all, BEL is a private business and needs to make a profit to run effectively. Yes, we would be at the mercy of the price of oil, but we are anyway.

We probably don't need the dam, but we do need to provide practical alternatives if the argument against its construction is to be won. The Greenies and Lefty's amongst us are going to have to face the fact that there is no perfectly clean solution to Belize's future electricity needs....fossil fuel generators are the ONLY practical and affordable alternative to the dam that I can think of.....I'm looking forward enormously to any other solutions.

Having watched people here on AC struggle with the MASSIVE costs of providing a few watts of power for their off-the-electric-grid houses on the Southern part of the island, it is clear that wind and solar power as practical or affordable alternatives don't work. After all, if the dam is only being built for the purposes of padding politicians pockets then wind or solar would have been MUCH more profitable in that respect. I am sure that Fortis/BEL/GOB would have put forward plans for such methods if they thought it would actually produce the required megawatts at a reasonable cost. My guess is that the cost of wind or solar is so prohibitive that the funding required would be out of proportion to the population base of Belize and the World Bank would have laughed at such a funding request.

Now, I'm off outside to lubricate my bike chain with fossil fuel oil. What an evil, anti-environment man I am!

#152488 05/22/03 09:45 PM
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Am i surprised that Miss Anthropy and Susan gg do not reply to a reasoned debate?
Of course not

#152489 05/22/03 11:14 PM
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"Lefty" huh? You know, that is one of those terms that some folks trot out when they do not have an answer. It's one of those buzzwords that means very little in today's world, but a good substitute for THINKING.
Take my complaint about the dam: That it is a monopolistic, anti competitive boondoggle that will saddle Belizean tax payers for 50 YEARS with a contract that requires Belize to pay way above market rates for electricity but leaves Fortis (the multinational that got the sweetheart contract) with no risk whatsoever and immunity for virtually anything (including failure, disasters, etc.) A contract that was awarded with NO COMPETITIVE BIDDING, and with no public scrutiny of the financial aspects.
THAT is the primary problem with this project - it is a recipe for national bankruptcy.
And indeed, large dams and other giant monopoly no bid contracts have often proven disastrous in developing countries.
While many parts of the developing world are moving at least somewhat away from monopolies and towards free competitive enterprise (now there's a real "lefty" idea for you) in the power and other utility sectors, Belize has just said 50 years worth of NO to ALL innovation, ALL competitive power sources, and signed a blank check on behalf of Belizean tax payers.
We are living in a time when old methods of providing power (like diesel generators, as just one example) are available at much reduced costs, and where new methods (like biofuel and fuel cells) are beginning to be available.
There are many small operators who would be willing to provide power at competitive rates to different sectors of the Belizean public, if only they were allowed to do so. And Belize is blessed with a climate that would allow some parts of Belize to use natural resources - sun, wind and plant oils - as part of the energy mix.
But the Belizean pols have issued a resounding "stay away" to all of this = for 50 years. And that includes the continued ban against cooperative mini power plants that could bring power to poor villages in rural areas...if only the monopoly laws were changed. But they will not be.
The Belizean government is slouching towards bankruptcy. How many of you will be joining it over the next few years....nickled and dimed to death by the tax man to pay for this obscenely overpriced and one sided contract?


Susan Guberman-Garcia, Attorney at Law. Phone: 510-792-2639
Fax/Voicemail:: 510-405-2016 Email: [email protected]
#152490 05/22/03 11:23 PM
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Chris asks: "Speaking of tree-hugging liberals, how many acres of natural pristine bush and incidental wildlife did you wipe out to build your house in Panama?" (A question unrelated to the issue of the dam, and presumably posed to discredit me rather than respond to my complaint about anticompetitive sweetheart contract for the dam...)

Answer: We cut down enough coconut trees and a couple of other trees around the perimeter of the home to ensure a clear sun path for the solar panels and to prevent coconuts falling on our heads. We cut enough bush around the house, path to the house, pathway down the slopes to the beaches, and around the construction sheds, utility shed, and temporary housing for construction workers to discourage fer de lances (the crew have already killed two) from continuing residence there.

We also continue maintain the two nature trails through the land so that people can walk along them.

Similar areas will be cleared for the second and third houses.

Beyond that, there has been and will be no interference with the jungle and it will remain as pristine as it was when we bought it.

Want to see it? Go to http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4290923989&p=4229497929&idx=58


Susan Guberman-Garcia, Attorney at Law. Phone: 510-792-2639
Fax/Voicemail:: 510-405-2016 Email: [email protected]
#152491 05/23/03 08:08 AM
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Susan-read the other posts-not just yours and one of Chris's-also it is good to see that you are being a property developer using lots of natural woods, and I fully believe you when you say you have chopped down just a couple of trees,by the way,when did you last visit Belize for more than a couple of days.

#152492 05/23/03 08:46 AM
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I am sorry to see this thread degenerate into a contest of who chopped down the cherry tree or who rides a bike instead of battery driven golf carts...and i suppose my initial sarcasm was unneccessary, as i am not british. The issue is the dam, I think. and it brings up myriad other issues of utility power. we are dealing with utility power issues here in the US as electricity was deregulated a few years back and has caused major chaos in the distribution of power at reasonable rates to the end users. Privatization of a country's resources is the problem the way i see it. It removes the resources and management thereof belonging to the citizenry into the hands of corporate entities. BTW I am not a greeny, lefty or a witch, just someone with a personal perspective. I live long periods of time in Belize and the U.S. each, not that this is required to give a crap about this dam project which will make electric power even more expensive to the end users, and no more reliable I'm betting.

#152493 05/23/03 09:21 AM
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English-please.
I think we all agree that the power in this country is sub-standard,and it maybe that the dam is not the best way to go.
Unfortunately this arguement has been going on for over 6 years and the end user is getting a service that is going noticeably downhill by the week.
The dam has been approved,for better or worse,and it will provide more power to the end user - it may cost more but so what-remember electricity is not a right but something you/we have to pay for.

For businesses on the island who have suffered power outages-just want a guarranteed source of power so that their clients can run their a/cs-

It comes to keeping the visitors happy so that they will recommend Belize to their friends and unlike some (Susan) keep coming back,and help the basic economy of the country.

Lets look at the downside-Belize defaults on its loans to the World Bank-that really will not be a surprise and then we end up with a debt free dam.

#152494 05/23/03 10:05 AM
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Hola Susangg;

Yes, seen the pix, very nice, lots of lovely natural jungle hardwoods being used on your first house. Bet the howler monkeys where THAT came from love you! You're planning two more houses, that's great! FYI, I am building a new house here on AC. Cement/steel foundation, cement columns and beams. Steel frame, cementboard (Plycem) walls, vinyl siding, galvanum insulated roof. So far, no trees chopped down. Ummmmm...I lie....Caribbean pine steps and fence posts. I am such a pig developer.

Seriously, Susan, it's just a fact that by our very being on this planet Earth and wanting a life of ambition and comfort we are by definition users of its resources. You and your husband are one couple and yet you have shown us that you have a yacht, two condo's on AC, a hardwood house under construction in Panama AND with two more planned. I don't know what homes you own in the USA or elsewhere...I hope they're lovely, though. You worked hard for them.

"What is right for me is wrong for everyone else?"

The ONLY way we can reverse the drain on the Earth's resources is by reversing man's desire for more and more possessions (ie. reverse the desire for economic growth). Doesn't look like you're prepared to step back into the stone age, Susan. I know I'm not, but at least I'm happy to admit it.

Why is this relevant to the dam? Your bio-fuels and little village electric plants do not begin to address our (and YOUR) desire for more and more possessions and growth. Improvements in education means that young villagers have ambition and the desire for something more than a few pigs and a straw floor. The traditional Mayan hut no longer has appeal as a dwelling. They want nice houses, cars, stereos.

It's in our nature.
We want to have what we see. The more we have, the more we want.

Because of our genetically inbuilt greed, the big boys get to build their dam.

#152495 05/24/03 01:22 AM
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Hi Folks,
I don't have much to say these days as I always get sandblasted.
I will offer this.

Mother Earth has a way of healing herself. She did it with the dinosaurs and she will do it with the human race too. We, the human race, are a boil on the ass of Mother Nature. She will find a way to dispose of us. If not the wars, then plagues,droughts,AIDS, SARS, Bin Laden, Whatever.
We, with the intelligence she gave us, have been able to postpone and ingore our fate.
Our respect for this planet is based on our need to reproduce and 'give the kids a better life'. That's all well and good but this planet solves its own problems. It has been doing so for millions of years so why do we think we can change Her? I, as a poor example of a human being but one none the less, respect and enjoy the chance she has given me to live out my life and I will try to make the world a better place for my grandchildren BUT we, as upright walking hemorrhoids on this planet, will have to accept the fact that She will dispose of us one way or another. It's inevitable.
A dam here, a dam there, it makes no difference. It gives us something to do while she decides our fate. The Mayans and Egyptians had to build worthless monuments as busy work. We, at least have evolved to a point where we can build something that will make us more comfortable as we await our destiny.
I vote no on the dam issue anyway.
Jim


Jim
#152496 05/24/03 01:45 AM
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I vote "no" with Jim. Enough said. Everyone's entitled to their opinion.

#152497 05/24/03 07:32 AM
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This month's quote: "Mellontolatry, or the worship of the future, is a fuddled religion." --C. S. Lewis


If you must choose between two evils, pick the one you've never tried before.
#152498 05/24/03 01:26 PM
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It is interesting that some people prefer to personally attack me on matters unrelated to the dam instead of responding to my issue, which is that a devastatingly one sided 50 year sweetheart monopoly contract is NOT the best way to bring badly needed power to Belize and that this contract will result in higher direct costs (utility charges) and higher indirect costs (higher taxes to pay for the borrowing). I have seen none of these attackers explain why opening the marketplace to competitive power suppliers is not far better than perpetuating a monopoly that the small number of tax payers in this tiny country cannot afford to sustain.

Instead, I am attacked for building in Panama with local woods. That is an interesting topic in and of itself and the politically correct argument is not necessarily the most factually supportable one. I have to question why some feel one is a better steward of the environment by importing concrete pre fab products instead of building with local hardwoods. I would not presume to criticize someone who prefers prefab to hardwood for reasons of budget or taste, but the argument that building with local wood causes massive deforestation is simply contrary to historical facts about the economies of lumber producing regions.

If you look at the places (and there are many in my home state of California) in all the forested areas of the world where clear cutting and other massive deforestation has occurred, the culprits are major corporations buying up huge tracts of forested land, clear cutting, and selling for export, NOT local millers who are supporting a local building industry. Exportation of raw natural resources uses up those resources quickly, with no lasting return. In contrast, the development of local value-added industry is the very thing that can save a community from the economic decline that massive export of its resources usually brings. (And no nation ever became prosperous by selling its raw products to other countries to develop value added with).

When you build with local wood, milled and cut at local mills, and worked by local furniture makers, carpenters and construction workers, you are actually lessening the likelihood that the local forests will be clear-cut. You are helping to create a sustainable local economy that will have far greater favorable impact than merely selling off the trees for export. The local people will try harder to hang on to their forests instead of selling them off to a multi national for clear cutting if there is a local economy that is built around it.

In the Bocas del Toro archipelago, where we are building, housing has traditionally been built with local hardwoods, some of which are so hard that you have to drill before putting in the nails. (That is why they are termite resistant). We are continuing that tradition. In so doing, we are supporting a local building contractor, the local wood milling company, local craftsmen and furniture makers, and many construction workers (building a home with wood is far more labor intensive and takes longer to build than the alternatives, especially pre fab concrete mix products). Further, the small locally owned company that sells the wood does not engage in clear cutting. Trees are selectively and individually logged, to specific order.

PS: We do not have a "yacht." We have a 37 foot catamaran. Hardly a yacht. And what does that have to do with anything? Does having a sailboat make us unqualified to opine on either monopoly sweetheart contracts or anything else?

And no, we are not planning to live in the "stone age" nor do we advocate that for anyone else. I am not sure why Chris chose to make those comments instead of addressing my complaints about the dam contract. I guess it is intended to posit the false (but politically useful) construct that the choice is either: (1) Chalillo Dam with 50 year sweetheart monopoly contract and resulting excessive taxation or bankruptcy and environmental disaster, or (2) go back to the "stone age" with no power to allow modern conveniences. That is a false analogy, since there is a third alternative: open the market to free competitive power enterprise, with full financial disclosure.


Susan Guberman-Garcia, Attorney at Law. Phone: 510-792-2639
Fax/Voicemail:: 510-405-2016 Email: [email protected]
#152499 05/24/03 02:57 PM
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What constitutes a yacht a 39' catamaran-anything that costs under 5,000,000 dollars-anything with a sail -Susan your arguments are reasoned but unfortunately they really are one sided,and in global terms do not make sense.
As the other posts have stated this debate has been going on for years and only now is your voice being heard over the ramparts,when it is all too late.
Selective logging is Ok as long as everyone does not participate.

#152500 05/24/03 03:53 PM
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Hola Susan;

What a lucid and reasonable argument you make.

Nevertheless I'll tell you why your "competitive bidding small companies, little hydro plants, fuel cells, small diesel generators" solutions don't fly....you actually said it in your post but you obviously didn't realise it. You are right. Belize IS a "Tiny Country." You can't have multiple electric utilities serving such a small customer base. None of the companies would make money. And, how do you make a proper electrical grid for the whole country? Who would own the lines? When would one company's power lines end and another's begin? What would happen if one small company servicing, say, the Toledo District, went out of business because THEIR customer base was too poor and small to pay for the massive costs of servicing and replacing power lines spread out over 100's of square miles and serving just a few people per square mile? Would any of your other small companies in the other towns or districts be able to pick up the slack? Would they even be willing to do so? I mean, why MAKE a company provide power at a loss?

What would happen if an imaginary "San Pedro Power Company", which might be making small profits, had all of their infrastructure wiped out by a hurricane? Even if insurance paid up in full, would the "San Pedro Power Company" have the industrial muscle to get everything re-built and up and running in a reasonable time? BEL did a few years ago when we got hit by Keith because they pooled their hefty resources from the mainland to help here and in Caye Caulker. We didn't lose the tourist season for 2000-2001.

Your little electrical companies idea can't supply the power while people like you AND ME and just about everyone else want "Growth Growth Growth." Furthermore only a large power monoply can supply such a miniscule country and make a profit. And, the large power monopoly wants assurances that they can stay profitable for a long time. In any case, the Belize tax payer will not take it in the shorts on this one. What WILL happen is the dam will run for a certain amount of years. If and when it is determined that it didn't work as planned the loans will be defaulted on and wiped out. Thanks go to Pedro for this very true observation. I'll bet you $100.00US (one hundred dollars US in words, can't be too careful with lawyers, you might knock a zero off if you lose!)on this one....might be a few years, though, before you have to pay up. Email me at [email protected] if you want to take the bet smile

You are right, your catamaran isn't a yacht. What a huge blunder on my part. Can I at least call it a boat? And, I am sorry, I was not aware that Panama does not export its fine tropical jungle hardwoods and is, in fact, a nation that is totally devoted to saving its natural resources. (In reality, lots of countries talk the jungle conservation talk, NONE walk it.)

Susan, I don't mean to attack you because you want stuff.... you're really just a capitalist like most other successful people. I think it's great that you have wealth and want more. In that respect you and I are just like Fortis.

#152501 05/24/03 04:16 PM
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Have found this exchange of words and ideas, most interesting. Fair exchange. Thought provoking to say the least.

Chris your above overview of all the posts, is reasonable.

How many customers does BEL presently have in all of small Belize?


Dare To Deviate
#152502 05/24/03 04:32 PM
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I would estimate 50,000 tops but I will say I am not sure but there is only a pop.of 250k,and various areas do not have power(albeit that number is growing smaller by the day)

#152503 05/25/03 12:49 AM
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Maybe 50,000 customers. Supply and Demand!


Dare To Deviate
#152504 05/28/03 12:43 PM
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Me thinks Susan not going to bet!!!!!!

#152505 05/28/03 03:46 PM
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50,000 is a good approximation and usage increased almost 9% over last year. This is not a black and white discussion, other than will it work. I've spoken to engineers who say they can construct on the shale foundation, but it will cost more. No one has given us the new reconfigured budget to look at and none of these engineers live here or will be held accountable if the project does not work as promised. And you have to remember to factor in the cost of the 3rd dam upstream from Chalillo that will be required to make Chalillo and Mollejon operate properly. We can't depend on MX as an energy source when they can't fullfil their own needs. We had outages (outrages) constantly for a two week period. It's not easy to conduct a wired life under those conditions. I don't see the poeple in power considering any alternative power sources, so don't talk to me about wind, solar, hydro. Talk to Lynn Young at BEL, they make these decisions. But they won't consider alternative alternatives.. We also have to take into consideration that this area is unique and considered the Noah's Ark of Belize because it is a breeding area for so many cherished creatures. I was about 30 miles upstream from where they plan to build the dam a few weeks ago. It is breathtakingly beautiful. It would be a shame to loose this. A dam shame. But like the rest of the world, it's all going anyway. Just a matter of time til people usurp for their needs. No easy answer without more geological and hydrological data, which will help to determine whether this thing will even fly as promised. Then take into account the costs and environmental loss.


Maya Travel Services
#152506 05/28/03 04:21 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 736
Offline
Well put Maya travel. Unlike Chris, I don't count myself as one of the genetically greedy people, while I admit that i live well and do not deny that I am a consumer. Killing off the valley with an ill conceived plan is just ridiculously stupid. LIke any scheme of this sort, politicians and other public servants' pockets have already been filled with "incentives", so that 1/3 of the occupants of the country of belize who have electric utility access may or may not get better power service by irreparably damaging the habitat of certain people and creatures. And yes, the earth is cleansing itself as Jim pointed out, I totally agree with his take on that aspect, its only a matter of time before everything is transmuted one way or another. Its an unknown to all as to how this dam plan will work out, and being flip about it may alleviate some people's frustration and fear of doing without what they determine they need to be happy. Only time will tell, and all that is ruined by this scheme of lining the pockets of foreign corporations for a marginally better, or worse, power source, gained at the expense of a large region of life in a very tiny geographical country, is just sadly moronic.

#152507 05/28/03 10:27 PM
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,191
Offline
Anthropy, how terribly deeply touching. Now, all you have to do is come up with a viable solution for providing reasonably priced and reliable electricity to a maximum of 250,000 mostly poor consumers spread out over 8000 miles. (No need to put your ideas on this board, why change the habits of a lifetime? Tell it to the BEL).

#152508 05/29/03 04:13 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 736
Offline
Gee whiz Chris, MEOW! My opinions are FREE. If you want in-depth technical analysis, research and solution proposals regarding YOUR personal electrical power problems, you'll have to pay for it, and I'm guessing I'm out of your price range. Same goes for BEL. Best wishes to you in your future endeavors.

#152509 05/29/03 04:19 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 256
M
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M
Ground breaking ceremony was held yesterday at the site, helmed by Min of the Environment and Dep PM, John Briceno.

Speak now or forever hold your peace (or piece?).


Maya Travel Services
#152510 05/29/03 07:26 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 8,868
S
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S
From LOVE FM: GROUND BROKEN FOR CHALILLO PROJECT
Ground has been broken for the start of the Chalillo Hydroelectric Project. During
ceremonies yesterday Deputy Prime Minister, John Briceno, gave the keynote address. He
stated that Belize is a developing aspect in every aspect; with more houses and land being
made available to Belizeans and along with these comes the necessity of providing energy
supply. Briceno added that the Chalillo project is an integral part of power generation
planning to meet Belize's energy needs. In his address, President and Chief Executive
Officer of Fortis Incorporated, Stanley Marshall, called on opponents of the project, to
respect the decision of the people and government, pointing out that the project has
received all environmental and regulatory approvals, and that these approvals have been
upheld by the Supreme Court and the Court of Appeal. The Chalillo Hydroelectric Project
will be built with the highest international construction and environmental standards. Work
is scheduled for completion by January 2005, with the storage component completed and filled by
September of next year.

#152511 05/30/03 12:29 AM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 70
K
Offline
K
WOW--I just read the entire dam(n) thread. I had to read Susangg's response twice, because the first time I read it quickly and I thought she was actually denying being a tree-hugging, died-in-the-wool, liberal. After a second, more careful reading, I realized that she didn't.
Even though our politics are at opposite ends of the poles, I think she made some good points. However, on her description of logging and forest practices in her home state of California, she was dead wrong in many respects:
1)California does not export most of its logs. By far, the majority of its available logs are processed in the state by people who work in sawmills, veneer plants, plywood plants, oriented strand board plants, and paper mills to make the wood products need by the THIRTY FOUR MILLION people that live in California.
It is true that some of the logs are exported, but that is primarily due to the fact that the air heads and greenies have effectively gutted the timber industry and forced the closure of a majority of the sawmills in California. Under Clinton, and the Northwest Forest Plan, the logs available for harvest in Oregon and California was less than ten percent of historical averages. Without the raw material (logs) the mills must close, and all those hard working people that worked in the industry for many years, and all the people that depended on them were out of luck.

2) Clear cutting is not necessarily a bad thing. For some shade intollerant species like Douglas Fir, Western Hemlock, and White Fir, clear cutting provides the best environment for them to thrive when replanted. It just so happens that these are the predominant species of conifers on the western slopes of the California mountains. There are ten trees planed for every tree harvested, and they do grow back. The coast range in Oregon and California were heavily logged after WWII, and they have now regenerated to the point that they are being logged again. Trees are a renewable resource. If you plant them again after the harvest, they will grow.

Why are they killing the Fer de Lance? Don't they have the same right to live and be happy in the jungle like any other snake? If everyone kills them, some day there won't be any left. Why should they be treated any different than the spotted owl or the marbled murrelet?

#152512 05/30/03 12:54 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,672
L
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L
I live in Sacramento, Ca. Did any of you know that my hometown contains the more trees than any city in the WORLD? Tis a fact.

#152513 05/30/03 09:31 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,035
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I actually thought it was Moscow-all trees planted by Stalin.

#152514 06/09/03 12:18 PM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 713
S
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S
this is from the Reporter, page 21 of the June 8 issue...

GOB's Dirty Little Secret
by Meb Cutlack

For more than 4 years, stories have abounded about "First Belizeans" being offered spectacular building sites around the new so-called "lake" which will be formed if and when Chalillo is built.
Well, the secret is not yet officially out, but the truth is now apparent. It is not just a few house lots to its "friends" that government has in mind, but the international marketing of hundreds of house lots on a scenic road to be built around the Chalillo reservoir.
News has reached me from sources within the Lands and Survey Department that at least one surveyor and draftsman or two are hard at work plotting out the miles of scenic road which will be built--on what is presently National Park and Forest Reserve land to surround "Lake Chalillo."
Of course, the "lake" will in fact be anything but a scenic delight. For years to come, it will be a mosquito-ridden swamp with the perpetual stench of rotting vegetation and poisonous mud banks, as water rises and falls according to hydro demands.
What is will certainly also be is a milk cow for favoured Belizeans handed the right to "develop" this precious and unique wildlife area Belize.
The project has moved from hurriedly jotted sketches and badly drawn maps scrawled on the back of envelopes to surveyors' drawing boards. And it has been enlarged from just a few scattered lots to possibly the most major land development scheme ever hatched in Belize.
Consider also that just last week Cabinet, "decided to act to modernize Belize's stata laws. This will be achieved through streamlining and broadening the scope of the Strata Titles Registration Act.
Now, while this law is basically designed to enhance opportunities for foreign owners to buy into condos, there is not doubt that it could also be used to establish and pass on ;to foreigners, ownership titles in areas such as the Pine Ridge and even in national park areas.
And, despite the fact that the whole Chalillo issue is still tied up in a lawsuit to be considered by the Privy Council in London this month, Government has already started the Chalillo project rolling.
Belizeans should take a very good look at the Macal River because if you think that the much debated Environmental Impact Assessment did its job, think again.
According to Lynn Young (CEO Belize Electricity Limited) at last week's groundbreaking: "What we have to do over the next year or two is to study the river flows, because between here and Mollejon, there are other tributaries in the river, and so you have to study these tributaries. If they are flooded, then you might not want to release as much water. In dry season when those are very dry, we would have to release our water from here. So over time, we're gonna learn how to manage it to get the best performance at Mollejon and the least environmental impact."
But don't be confused by BEL's Chief Engineer Joseph Suknandan's statement that day: "We will release on meter cube per second, which is about half this water, all day. An. And then you would release how much water you need for Mollejon. So let us say it would vary during a typical day, if the Mollejon needs all of it to keep Mollejon running at full capacity, you then release that amount.... So what you will do, you will manage the amount of water that you release here, and you'll only release exactly how much you need at Mollejon."
I say, "Don't be confused," because of course Chalillo has nothing whatsoever to do with water or electricity. It is about big bucks: big bucks from gravel, big bucks from cement contracts, big bucks from high investment returns and huge bucks from land deals.
It's about the selling of Belize to the highest bidder--if indeed government even bothers to tender these contracts rather than just hand them over to its cronies. In which case, it's just about the usual selling of Belize; it's water, electricity, communications, Mayan past, ports, airport, timber resources and now even its Parks and Reserve land.
As Mr. Fox said recently about Fortis, a sentiment endorsed by Amandala: "Give them their money back over a period of time and interest on their capital and bank rates and get a management team in here that has in mind the best interests of the citizens and our economic development."


Susan Guberman-Garcia, Attorney at Law. Phone: 510-792-2639
Fax/Voicemail:: 510-405-2016 Email: [email protected]
#152515 06/09/03 04:00 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 736
Offline
What a crying shame. Business as usual I guess.

#152516 06/09/03 05:11 PM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 5,255
OP Offline
ok. i started this thread, not having a clue it would snowball.

i do not know politics. i do not know law. i have no facts.

but i visited the macal valley twice and it was magical to me. i am saddened that it is changing. i would feel better if i knew the people of belize would profit (figuratively) from it. seems like no one knows that answer.

all i know is my children got to see it before it was gone, and i am proud that they as me "why is the rainforest disappearing, mom?". i wish i had better answers for them.

i made this when i returned last year. take a good look and say goodbye:

http://www.pbase.com/image/3737764

j.

#152517 06/09/03 10:15 PM
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,191
Offline
Yes, how touching. Let us not forget that the article appears in the very anti-PUP newspaper The Reporter. Let us also not forget that no alternative to the dam was offered by the author.

That is PRESCISELY the problem with the people trying to stop the dam project: lots of protests, lots of crying but almost NO-ONE willing to offer the PRACTICAL alternative solution, which is more conventional generating capacity using up to date equipment. The anti-dam people, have played right into Fortis' hands.

BEL is, right now, installing a big, new gas-turbine generating plant on the Western Highway at Mile 9-ish. It is designed to take up the slack when the present hydro plant in Cayo drops capacity due to dry weather. What is wrong with a couple or three more of these to secure Belize's electricity supply 24/365? We could keep our Macal Valley just the way it is now. Anyone on the anti-dam lobby got a problem with that?

Question is, will the people fighting the final court battle with the Privy Council have the brains (and pragmatic decency) to offer such generating plants as an acceptable alternative to the dam?? Have any of the petitions presented to the "courts" in Belize suggested even remotely that the people protesting the dam would accept a compromise solution of conventional and MODERN generating capacity? I am gonna guess the answer is NO because only outrageously expensive and impractical solar, wind and little mini-hydros are acceptable to the anti-dam people because COMPROMISE is not a word that comes easily to them.

I cannot believe that the Privy Council of the UK would not find in the anti-dam lobby's favour if they (the anti-dam lobby) would show the Privy council how easily BEL could supply electricity using regular (but MODERN) fossil fuel generators. I stress "modern" because new motor technology would help keep fossil fuel pollution down, just as it does with anti-dam protestors SUV's.

Isn't compromise worth a try?

#152518 06/10/03 02:54 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 736
Offline
Chris, I don't know what you expect to accomplish by ranting about these "anti-dam people", whoever "they" are. What is already in motion has nothing to do with getting more and better power supply to Belizeans. What is happening is the carefully planned exploitation of one country's natural resources by several outside corporations, which in turn will provide huge financial gain for a few politicians and probably several foreign land scam investors along the way. You seem to lump together those people who are displeased about the unreasonable destruction of an existing enchanting ecosystem, with a small lobby of useful idiot green freaks participating in the court case, when in fact the whole court thing is a diversion from the facts, a charade to give the "People" the false assurance that their is a venue of fair play at work. How touching indeed.

#152519 06/10/03 03:45 PM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 5,255
OP Offline
ouch! not sure if chris was offending me or not. i clearly stated that i have little to no involvement nor expertise. i just was passing on info recieved.

some of us are dreamers. shoot us. i am a private tree hugger. i feed the birds. i put out deer blocks. i teach my kids to respect nature. i am no activist. i do not tell anyone else what to do. i have no alternatives or answers. BUT, i thought just throwing out the post may make someone who DOES have facts or answers step up.

i thought if those who had not seen the area would like to, i'd post the pic. http://www.pbase.com/image/3737764 see it now, abracadabra! gone. i only express my personal feelings. sorry.

#152520 06/10/03 05:37 PM
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,191
Offline
I think what I'm trying to say is that the dam could be stopped if sensible compromise solutions could be presented to the Privy Council.

I think I am also trying to say that: Anthropy = DUUUUUUHHHHHHH.

#152521 06/10/03 07:23 PM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 713
S
Offline
S
Well Chris, we finally agree! Big gas turbines is infinitely better than the proposed dam, from both an economic and an environmental standpoint.

It is difficult to persuade people to oppose the dam if you cannot present them with an alternative. That is what the government has done. It has acted as though THIS PARTICULAR DEAL is the only one that could possibly have been done, and then set up a straw man, the straw man being: "We have to have more power. Are you against having more power?"

It is the government of Belize that refused to open the market up for bids and proposals, alternatives to create more power that could have been discussed, analyzed and debated (and most importantly, scrutinized by honest bean-counters). Instead, the people were presented with a fait accompli, a deal made in secret, with no public accountability and nothing to compare it with. The kind of deal that is the hallmark of corrupt politicians.

Make no mistake about it: The big issue here (as is the case with so many other issues) is GOVERNMENT CORRUPTION. Not what kind of power to have, and what would it take to create it. The alternatives for creating more power WERE NEVER ON THE TABLE TO BEGIN WITH.


Susan Guberman-Garcia, Attorney at Law. Phone: 510-792-2639
Fax/Voicemail:: 510-405-2016 Email: [email protected]
#152522 06/10/03 07:33 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,336
T
Offline
T
i wish i was in the belizean government...atleast the only piles of paper those mofo's hide behind is dinero..

#152523 06/12/03 09:37 AM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 256
M
Offline
M
Excuse me, but we are an independant country and are not going to the privvy council to ask permission to build a dam or discuss options. The case before the PC will merely determine if the NEAC assessment process to approve the dam was flawed from the get go. And dare say one could not find many more sensible or capable attny than Lois Young Barrow, whom the NGO's engaged to argue that the NEAC environmental assessment process for the dam was flawed and needs to be revisited with new data and reviewed by people whose careers will not be affected by the way they vote.


Maya Travel Services
#152524 06/12/03 10:23 AM
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,191
Offline
You mean "independent"....people place so much importance on the word, one might as well spell it right.

Wouldn't hurt the case if Lois could show that we are well capable of providing all our electricity needs for the future without the dam.

#152525 06/12/03 10:57 AM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 713
S
Offline
S
Canada aids massive dam projects

By GEOFFREY YORK
From Thursday's Globe and Mail

Beijing - Canada continues to give financial support to massive dam projects around the world, despite mounting concerns that the dams are
causing environmental damage and forcing millions of people to abandon their homes, according to a new report.

>From the rain forests of Belize to the famed Three Gorges of China, the Canadian government and private sector have persistently promoted dam
projects that inflict damage on people and the ecology, according to the report, which was issued today by a coalition of Canadian environmental and human-rights groups.

In the latest evidence of Canada's strong support for foreign dam projects, Hydro Quebec is helping organize a congress of the International Commission on Large Dams next week in Montreal.

The meeting is "a symbolic indication" of the "increasingly aggressive export plans" of the key players in Canada's dam industry, the report
says.

By supporting foreign dams so enthusiastically, it says, the Canadian government is ignoring the recommendations of a major study in 2000 by
the World Commission on Dams, which called for greater awareness of environmental risks and the rights of the affected populations.

Foreign dam projects are a lucrative business in Canada, especially since the country is now the world's top producer and second-biggest exporter of hydro-electricity, the report says.

The report mostly blames the Canadian International Development Agency and the Export Development Corp., which have given financing to
feasibility studies and business contracts that pave the way for hydro dams around the world.

"Canada continues to be active in the promotion of large dams," the report says. "By using market intelligence through foreign missions, trade missions, strong marketing campaigns in priority markets, and Canadian government financial support through the EDC and CIDA Inc., Canada continues to aggressively promote this industry."

In Belize, for example, CIDA has spent $466,234 to finance environmental and feasibility reports that helped promote the Chalio dam on the Macal
River - one of the last undisturbed rain-forest valleys in Central America. The CIDA grants over the past three years are expected to pave
the way for $12-million in contracts to Canadian businesses from the Belize dam project, the report said.

In China, the EDC has provided $189-million in loans for Canadian-built equipment for the massive Three Gorges dam, including $153-million for General Electric Canada to build six turbines for the project. China announced yesterday that it had finished the first stage of filling a
huge 436-kilometre reservoir behind the dam - the biggest in the world. About 500,000 people have been forced to move to make room for the dam,
and another million are expected to be relocated by the time the project is finished.

In Southeast Asia, CIDA has financed studies for 15 dams on the Mekong River which are expected to displace 180,000 people in Cambodia, Vietnam
and Laos.

The report calls for a moratorium on CIDA and EDC support for large dam projects until Canada has reviewed its policies and determined how to
comply with the recommendations of the World Commission on Dams, an independent alliance of governments, development agencies, businesses,
multilateral organizations and non-governmental groups.

The commission spent more than two years researching the issues and holding public hearings before publishing its recommendations in
November, 2000. But the Canadian government has ignored the recommendations, even though it had supported the commission's work financially, according to the report. "It is time to end the silence," it says.

A CIDA spokeswoman said the agency will not comment on the report until after its official release.

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20030611.udamm0612/BNSto
ry/National/


Susan Guberman-Garcia, Attorney at Law. Phone: 510-792-2639
Fax/Voicemail:: 510-405-2016 Email: [email protected]
#152526 06/12/03 11:30 AM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 5,255
OP Offline
please, no personal attacks. got this today:

Because you've taken action online to help us save the Macal River Valley in
Belize, I thought you'd want to know that this spectacular rainforest ecosystem
will be featured by Steve Irwin, the "Crocodile Hunter," on his television show
this week. The show will air this Friday, June 13, at 9:00 pm on the Animal
Planet channel (please check your local listings as the time may vary).

Steve Irwin says the Macal River has "more animals per minute" than any other
river he's paddled. This is a great opportunity for you to see the endangered
home of the jaguar and the scarlet macaw that our BioGems Campaign has been
fighting to save. Last month, the Canadian energy company Fortis Inc.
officially broke ground on the Chalillo dam project that would destroy the
heart of this irreplaceable wildlife habitat. But with the rainy season
underway, it is unlikely that Fortis will make much progress on construction
this year. And in the meantime, public opposition to the dam is growing in
Belize and around the world, and our partners are continuing to challenge the
dam in court.

#152527 06/14/03 06:12 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 11
NAZ Offline
Offline
Please, let us stop being so condisending to one another.
Yes Belize is a small developing country. That is another phrase in republican-speak for third world.
Alternitive solutions to the damn will never be used or considered because they do not generate enough money to line the pockets of those involved at the top.
What it amounts to is the people that have more want more and the people who have not get less. A few species of animals, some pristine nature and small villages of subsistence cultures are no match for those that sit at the top.
Ever since the begining of time, if the man in the cave on the west side of the mountain liked his sunset then the man on the east side would come and try to take it away from him.
We have not advanced that far from the caves. Modern weapons and computers are only elaborate clubs.
eek eek

#152528 06/16/03 08:28 AM
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 84,397
Offline
from one of the online news sources...

Chalillo bill: "Wrong and utterly perverse"

While most of the fireworks
exploding in
Belmopan today were aimed at the
Social
Security Bill, it was another
piece of
legislation--debated late in the
afternoon--that
may have more important long-term

ramifications. The Macal River
Hydroelectric
Development Bill attempts to
speed up the
construction of the Chalillo Dam. Ground was
officially broken on the
controversial project late last month, but those
opposed to it are attempting
to stop it in the courts. They have thus far been
unsuccessful, but are in the
process of appealing the adverse ruling to the Privy
Council. What the bill
seeks to do, however, is something that any student of
constitutional law
can tell you is impossible: it attempts to place
Chalillo beyond the reach of
the constitution. Section 4 (d) reads: "For the
avoidance of doubt and for
greater certainty, BECOL shall proceed with the
design, financing,
construction and operation for the Chalillo Project in
accordance with
paragraphs (a), (b) and (c) of this section
notwithstanding any
judgement, order or declaration of any court or
tribunal, whether
heretofore or hereafter granted, issued or made."

Clearly, a law which places any person or activity
beyond the reach of the
system of justice is incompatible with the notion of
constitutional rule. The
government must know this, and we can only assume that
the bill, which
went through all three readings in one day, was
enacted in order to ease the
concerns of BECOL's potential financiers. That noble
cause
notwithstanding, Leader of the Opposition Dean Barrow
described the bill
as "wrong and utterly perverse". Actually, this may be
one time when
Barrow's hyperbole came up short. The fact is that,
whether you like
Chalillo or not, this bill may be the worst piece of
legislation ever passed by
the House of Representatives.

#152529 06/16/03 09:29 AM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 256
M
Offline
M
Even people who are for the damn are against this bill for the precedant it creates.


Maya Travel Services
#152530 06/19/03 12:02 AM
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 5,255
OP Offline
(sorry for the worst pun ever, but...)

damned if you do, damned if you dont. had many talks with locals & gringos this week on the matter. everyone has an opinion, that much is for certain.

unrelated, the power never went out while i was there.

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