I agree with you, sweetjane. I see it only here in the US as well. I have never experienced a fear in other countries, and we do travel extensively. On occasion, we have felt a little intimidated, but never afraid.
I also stayed home with my kids, as long as I could, and then took a job that allowed me to be home when they were home. I understand that today, it's almost impossible for a lot of people to do that, and it's easier to have the schools take care of the difficult stuff.
I respect your wish to not have your childred subjected to prayer, I don't think religion should be pushed down anyones throat if it isn't welcomed. I hope in return that you respect my wish to allow my kids to pray, and if your kids don't want to hear it, then don't listen. I don't have anything but respect for your religion, even thought I don't necessarily agree with your beliefs. Who is to say which one is right? I believe as I do, and give anyone else the same right, without question. But, when things go wrong, we are always looking to blame someone else. We need to look at ourselves and how we fit in to the puzzle. If we want to feel safe, we may just have to give a little. It isn't always about us as an individual. Sometimes, we might just have to give as a cohesive group, to make sure we, as individuals are protected.
Not a lecture, but something to think about. How wonderful it would be if we never had to be afraid, or concerned for our kids, but I'm afraid those days are over. I so wish it was different.

S&S - America is still one of the safest countries in the world for its citizens, despite what's happened and what's going on now. The biggest problem America has to deal with is the fear of terrorism. When I see US "security measures" at airports I'm afraid the words "panic" and "headless chickens" come to mind. How many actual terrorists would be intimidated by these measures? Wouldn't they just enter Mexico and drive over the border? How many potential terrorists does Tony Blair think will decide that entering Britain is too difficult once the new ID card system comes into operation?

Rykat may be right that Orwell wrote great fiction, but what he produced was a biting parody of what he saw going on around him, and people's reaction to it. He knew short-sighted people would be happy to give up all their liberties in favour of what they saw as salvation, but he knew the whole construct had the deliberate and malevolent intention of doing just that.

Don't just read fiction - look at what Hitler actually did on his rise to power, and the intricate planning he employed to ensure he could never be accused of breaking any laws. Or much further back, read EA Freeman's book on William the Conqueror, and see how he knowingly and deliberately manipulated the legal systems of England and the Papacy to get what he wanted. Back to modern times, look at how the development of the EU into an anti-democratic and autocratic superstate was planned in detail by its founder back in 1923, and how those plans have inexorably followed through.

The one major mistake people have always made is to believe that history doesn't repeat itself. Successful history ALWAYS repeats itself, because selfish people can see a benefit to them in making it happen.

In case that's a bit abstract, let me reinforce what Collyk is saying. If we give up our liberties in favour of what we believe may be short-term salvation we will have much time afterwards to regret our short-sighted decision.

s&s, i believe you & i have more in common than this tread implies. and, tho i was born & raised jewish, i too dont agree with many of the beliefs either. i do not have a religion, only values. my kids' dad is a non-practicing catholic. all my kids friends are christian. i teach my kids 'to each his own', there is no right or wrong religion, and they indeed would respect your kids right to pray however they choose. we just dont think it should be in secular public school. prayer in school also makes many upwardly mobile asians in their school uncomfortable. separation of church and state.

due to my personal circumstances the past few years, i have re-thought a lot of things, and completely changed my thinking and my life. i have no problem with self-responsibility, tho i agree with you that many do. at this point, i think to feel safe and have a chance at a simple and happy life, i will have no choice but to leave my country. i am a (if i had to be classified) liberal, and now that is equal to an enemy of the state, and is a curse word. i am watching my future grandchildrens' world being choked to death because the bush family has personal oil interests to protect, (did you know brazil uses alternative fuel now and imports NO foreign oil??), soccer moms need Navigators, and the rainforest (as i saw in CR) is being decemated so the new american condo owners can eat big fat steaks instead of ricenbeans and fruit.

i sadly believe the american dream (work hard and you will succeed and your children will have a better life) has died with our parents' generation. so, i gave up a lot of material things (not my pc or my tivo!) and teach my kids how to be happy with what they have (which is hard cuz dad keeps buying new gadgets).

i'm sorry this had little to do with the original post, but thanks for letting vent.

just read pedro's post. i read an interesting fiction book recently, in case you think the airport security is a panacea. fiction, but could happen:

idea was second generation islamic extremists already living and highly educated in biology/science here. they slowly and quietly released a chemical into society over a 10 yr period to allow a certain common bacteria or virus (?) to not have antibodies in us. the virus was so old and long battled, we had stopped making the cure. then, once we all were suseptible, they quietly released the virus. no one understood how simple it was and couldnt figure out what the people had. our bodies couldnt fight it, LA & NY were quarantined and by the time scientist knew what it was, millions died. others had killed each other to get a bed in an overfilled hospital.

airport secuity measures would never help a situation like this. if there is a way around, and someone has the patience and intellect, they will find it. again fiction, but sometimes fact is even scarier.

have a nice day

Again, I agree with you, sweetjane. I, too, taught my kids values, more than religion. I believe in a higher "authority" and do have a relationship with my God, but I dont' feel the need to stuff it down others throats. Actually, we believe in the Great White Spirit, as my dad taught me, but mom was convinced that we needed to know her God, as well, so we know both.
I admit I find some of this debate concerning. In any event, I stick to my original opinion that I'll do what I can to keep my family safe, and to keep yours safe as well. If it is a mistake, I'll deal with it then. It it isn't, ebby tings gonna be OK.
We are leaving this country as well, as I think GWBush is waaay too self absorbed to see the forest for the trees. We pay an exorbitant amount of taxes, get hit harder every year, and haven't noticed much in return. I don't support the war in Iraq, and I hate having to contribute to it. But, that's a different subject, so we won't go there now.
I hope we get a chance to meet eachother, sweetjane. I know we have much in common, and I think I could learn from you.
Have a great week.
Susan

I am a libertarian, and as such favor individual rights more than most. However, I am also a realist. In the end, the issue of rights vs. security comes down to where you want to draw the line.

Constitutionally and ethically, I think you can draw that line at our border. Communication and travel coming in or out should be subject to scrutiny. Beyond that, I am vehemently territorial over my right to privacy.

If anyone's interested in my take on life in general -- www.PurpleThink.com

Very interesting and respectful debate. I can only add that for those of you concerned for the safety of your children (statistically your children are less at risk now than they ever have been), lets just hope that the information that you are willing to surrender now for their perceived safety is never used against them or your grandchildren by a future government. As we know, history tends to repeat itself. When it happens I dearly hope that yours are not among those persecuted. The Jewish community is not alone historically in being a persecuted people but I think many either don't know that or don't think about it and that makes them feel very safe with sharing their personal information. There have been times in recent history when being a protestant/catholic would lead to your death, being a single woman who likes cats would lead to your death, being romany would lead to your death and government backed genocide still continues to flourish all over the world. May not be happening in your country now, but while you remain scared of the bogey man from outside, it may be that he can exploit that opportunity to jump up and bite you in the bum.

In the London bombings of 2005 (I think - I tend to lose touch after a while!) I think all of the bombers were identified as living long-term in Britain, some were born there, and one had been a teacher of primary school children in a remote rural (and ostensibly peaceful) area for many years. Not one of those people would have been caught by any of the "security" measures current or contemplated in Britain or the US.

I think the expression is "locking the stable door after the horse has bolted".

As Collyk says, you may by then not be able to. For example, at present Britain could cecede from the EU, however difficult that might be in terms of practicalities. But there is a treaty in draft that will make membership of the EU irrevocable - once that is passed, and the bulk of the EU population have no idea that this treaty exists or of what is being done purportedly in their name, it will be an act of civil disobedience to attempt to cecede. The EU army (which already exists, though most Brits don't know that) will be sent in and the "revolt" will be put down. Yet lots of Brits (in particular) fondly believe that whenever they grow tired of this "club" they can opt to leave it.

This is why I find present developments frightening, and the unwillingness of many people to see what is happening around them deeply disturbing. How many of the people Hitler sent to the gas chambers thought they'd ride out the storm in the hope of something better on the other side?

[quote=collyk]I know I am going to regret this, but its been a while since I did something I'll regret, so it's about time.

Don't ever regret having an opinion whether "us" knuckleheads agree with it or not.
Having said that. I am not trying to be a wise a**, but other than annoying airport security, what rights to privacy do you feel have been taken away say in the past 5 to 10 years? Or, what civil rights have you been deprived of during that same period?
I ask that question for an answer, not as a lead in to slam!