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#225112 - 12/31/06 11:40 PM Big Brother .....
Anonymous
... is here, and he's American.

Originally Posted By: Telegraph.co.uk

US 'licence to snoop' on British air travellers

Britons flying to America could have their credit card and email accounts inspected by the United States authorities following a deal struck by Brussels and Washington.

By using a credit card to book a flight, passengers face having other transactions on the card inspected by the American authorities. Providing an email address to an airline could also lead to scrutiny of other messages sent or received on that account.

The extent of the demands were disclosed in "undertakings" given by the US Department of Homeland Security to the European Union and published by the Department for Transport after a Freedom of Information request.

About four million Britons travel to America each year and the released document shows that the US has demanded access to far more data than previously realised.

Not only will such material be available when combating terrorism but the Americans have asserted the right to the same information when dealing with other serious crimes.

Shami Chakrabarti, the director of the human rights group Liberty, expressed horror at the extent of the information made available. "It is a complete handover of the rights of people travelling to the United States," she said.

As the Americans tightened security after the September 11 attacks, they demanded that airlines provide comprehensive information about passengers before allowing them to land.

But this triggered a dispute that came to a head last year in a Catch 22 situation. On one hand they were told they must provide the information, on the other they were threatened with heavy fines by EU governments for breaching European data protection legislation.

In October, Brussels agreed to sweep away the "bureaucratic hurdles" preventing airlines handing over this material after European carriers were threatened with exclusion from the US. The newly-released document sets out the rules underpinning that deal.

As a result the Americans are entitled to 34 separate pieces of Passenger Name Record (PNR) data — all of which must be provided by airlines from their computers.

Much of it is routine but some elements will prove more contentious, such as a passenger's email address, whether they have a previous history of not turning up for flights and any religious dietary requirements.

While insisting that "additional information" would only be sought from lawful channels, the US made clear that it would use PNR data as a trigger for further inquiries.

Anyone seeking such material would normally have to apply for a court order or subpoena, although this would depend on what information was wanted. Doubts were raised last night about the effectiveness of the safeguards.

"There is no guarantee that a bank or internet provider would tell an individual that material about them was being subpoenaed," an American lawyer said.

"Then there are problems, such as where the case would take place and whether an individual has time to hire a lawyer, even if they wanted to challenge it."

Initially, such material could be inspected for seven days but a reduced number of US officials could view it for three and a half years. Should any record be inspected during this period, the file could remain open for eight years.

Material compiled by the border authorities can be shared with domestic agencies. It can also be on a "case by case" basis with foreign governments.

Washington promised to "encourage" US airlines to make similar information available to EU governments — rather than compel them to do so.

"It is pretty horrendous, particularly when you couple it with our one-sided extradition arrangements with the US," said Miss Chakrabarti.

"It is making the act of buying a ticket a gateway to a host of personal email and financial information. While there are safeguards, it appears you would have to go to a US court to assert your rights."

Chris Grayling, the shadow transport secretary, said: "Our government and the EU have handed over very substantial powers to gain access to private information belonging to British citizens."

A Department for Transport spokesman said: "Every airline is obliged to conform with these rules if they wish to continue flying As part of the terms of carriage, it is made clear to passengers what these requirements are.

The US government has given undertakings on how this data will be used and who will see it."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/01/01/nusnoop01.xml

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#225125 - 01/01/07 06:30 AM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
Marty Offline
anyone with an american passport that travel overseas is in that big database now. we're all possible threats

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#225128 - 01/01/07 09:26 AM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Marty]
Sun&sand Offline
My thoughts are, I have nothing to hide, and if it keeps just one person from doing something stupid, I'm all for it. If you don't want to play the game, stay out of the air. What is the worst that can happen with the gov. getting this information? Why does it seem to be an invasion of our privacy when they ask for information, but when something awful happens, we want to know why the government didnt' do anything to protect us? We can't have it both ways, unfortunately. This seems the lesser of the two evils.
_________________________
Live so that when you arise in the A.M, Satan shudders & says..
'Oh sh t..she's awake!'

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#225132 - 01/01/07 10:26 AM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Sun&sand]
ArtZ SmartZ Offline
Thank you S&S. My sentiments exactly. If it protects us from another 9/11 then so be it. Happy New Year
_________________________
ArtZ SmartZ

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#225133 - 01/01/07 10:37 AM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ArtZ SmartZ]
Nova Offline
I agree with S&S - anything that keeps me safe. Every time I fly, I make sure I thank the security folk - usually suprises them, but they are responsible for getting me to my destination alive and them doing a thorough job is critical to that. However, I do take issue with my work emails available for scrutiny. Sensitive information that is not for anyone's eyes other than the intended recipients. Personal emails, on the other hand, would likely shock the most jaded sailor! LOL (I have some very "naughty" friends with twisted senses of humor!)
_________________________
It's never too late to have a happy childhood!

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#225144 - 01/01/07 02:14 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Nova]
Anonymous
You do realise just how much private information the US government will now be gathering on travellers, and how insecure that information will be? And that identity fraud is becoming one of the biggest economic crimes in the world?

I see in Europe the growth of an unelected all-powerful autocracy which terrifies me. So long as the people at the top choose to be benign all is well, but what if people get into power who choose otherwise? There are now no checks and balances to stop them doing whatever they will. How many people realise how insidiously Hitler gained power, and that despite his appalling acts he never broke any law of his country?

Too much centralised power always frightens me, whether it's in Europe or America, and the first step to power is knowledge. Anyone read Orwell?

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#225151 - 01/01/07 03:08 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Orwell was great fiction, Pedro2, however IMHO Americans and Europeans had better be concerned about the threat from "outside" (Islamic Fundamentalists) rather than the threat from within. Both may be insidious but one is much more immediate.

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#225153 - 01/01/07 03:11 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Almost goes without saying - I'm with Pedro2 on this one. No, you can't have my civil rights - I'm still using them.

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#225157 - 01/01/07 03:31 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
sweetjane Offline
p2, we were just talking about that hitler issue last night, how no one realized until they were in neck deep. scary stuff, and i dont think i like it.

one guy in a zillion puts something in his shoe and customs goes bezerk. what happens if someone trys to swallow explosives? cavity searches for everyone?

i'm with you guys. this world is getting outta hand...

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#225160 - 01/01/07 03:47 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: sweetjane]
Sun&sand Offline
I'm very sorry that in order to secure our skies, we have to give up a few civil rights. It's too bad that the safety issues have to impede on our rights as Americans, and that for the sake of keeping my children safe, I have to give up a few rights. I wish it were otherwise, because I don't want to feel like I'm being scrutinized every time I purchase an airplane ticket. But, I would so much rather give up a few rights, than sit down beside a radical terrorist, and have no place to go but die with him. My children and grandchildren and their safety are my concern. I would give up all of my "civil rights" to keep them safe. Wish it wasn't the way the world has turned, but it is, so I'll deal with this. It seems a small sacrifice right now. Perhaps, later, when they are taking more, and we are receiving less, I'll rethink my position.
_________________________
Live so that when you arise in the A.M, Satan shudders & says..
'Oh sh t..she's awake!'

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#225162 - 01/01/07 03:57 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Sun&sand]
JeanH Offline
I'm with Pedro on this one too. I've gotten into numerous arguments at various venues when trying to cash a personal check and refusing to give my social security number. It says right on the card "not to be used for identification purposes". The state of Iowa used to have SS numbers on our driver's licenses, they've finally changed that.

I don't mind being searched when I fly, but I really don't want the airlines or the government knowing exactly where I spend my money.

I don't think I would be willing to give up all my civil rights, even for my kids. And after being raised by me (and my husband), my kids would agree with me.

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#225163 - 01/01/07 04:06 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: sweetjane]
Anonymous
What goes without saying? P2 makes a dozen points...clarify.

IMHO - I find the IRS Codes much more offensive (too much info)than how much information the US gov't collects on foreign travellers (or for that matter what the NSA collects by intercepting communications).
The most important civil liberty I have is my life. The ONLY thing I expect of my government is to protect that life.
Philisophical debates are delightful, however, at some point there is the problem of reality. Some accept what is visible in the world today, others bury their heads in the sand. Reality is that the US is at war. I would prefer NOT to disarm my government while it is fighting that war.
(Do not take this to mean I believe the gov't should be given Carte Blanche. I'm sure the ACLU, etc, etc., will selectively choose their battles). Just MHO!

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#225164 - 01/01/07 04:07 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Sun&sand]
Anonymous
Originally Posted By: Sun&sand
Perhaps, later, when they are taking more, and we are receiving less, I'll rethink my position.

Hope it's not too late then.

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#225176 - 01/01/07 04:58 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
sweetjane Offline
s&s, on air travel i have been with you. it is what i have to do for safety, i understand and follow all rules. but it is getting harder and harder. last (domestic) flight i was only 1.5 hrs early and they refused to put my luggage on and missed flight.

it isnt that which bothers me. nor to the IRS who i faithfully report everything to. like jean, i recently did some investing and had to give my ss# out a dozen times, and first time in my life it concerned me.

and, my private life is my own. i do not want anyone in my email or personal affairs.

as law has said on other issues, where does it end?


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#225196 - 01/01/07 09:28 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: sweetjane]
Sun&sand Offline
I can agree on private emails, personal affairs. I think if the gov. wants my SS number, passport number, or anything else that has to do with my flying/purchasingpower/traveling in and out of the country, I'm all for it. I change my email address often, so that isn't a biggie, and I don't have anything I need to hide otherwise. My bank accounts aren't a big secret, either. It's so easy to get a lot of this information online now, I'm just not going to worry about "big brother" getting his hands on it. If you don't want them to find out something, don't do it.
I hope it's not too late when if and when I decide to stop going along with it, but I'm willing to take that chance. I think the ACLU is a much bigger threat than our government when it comes to taking away rights. Our right to public prayer has been taken away because a few non-believers were offended. I think it has already gone too far. But, where our safety is concerned, I think it's important to cooperate. I hope no one is hurt ever again from terrorist actions, and if I can help in any way to deter another attack, count me in. My husband was to be playing racquettball at the Pentagon on 9/11, and I was in a total panic when I couldn't find him. I never want anyone to go through that. My heart breaks for those who lost loved ones. I will voluntarily cooperate with those in power to protect us.
_________________________
Live so that when you arise in the A.M, Satan shudders & says..
'Oh sh t..she's awake!'

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#225204 - 01/01/07 11:25 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Sun&sand]
Anonymous
Well said, s&s!

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#225215 - 01/02/07 12:46 AM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
collyk Offline
I know I am going to regret this, but its been a while since I did something I'll regret, so it's about time. I am just curious as to when the world changed. The only change I notice really is that the TV is full of scaremongering news and flying has become a real pain and far less pleasurable.

I can only recall in my lifetime - but haven't there always been wars, conflicts in the middle east, lots of bombs and people dying all over the world. When I was a kid we thought that the Russians were going to unleash a nuclear bomb on us and we were all terrified. As a younger person, I experienced many bombs, which killed people. At the time the people who did the bombing were known as 'terrorists' by some and freedom fighters by others, but now they are a legitimite political party with seats in government.

I can remember frequent bombings and planes being hijacked throughout my youth. So I just don't get how perfectly reasonable people have been so manipulated into believing that the world is somehow a less safe place (actually in most parts of the world it is statistically safer, which is evident in increased life expectancy and lower infant mortality rates - the biggest threat to human life immediately are cars). It is depressing to see so many people living in fear to the extent that they are willing to give up their rights to privacy. Any information or rights you give up now you will never be able to reclaim no matter who is in charge. If you happen to be someone in opposition to whoever is in charge in the future, you may find yourself seriously regretting having allowed someone to know your personal business. Not only that but this information will eventually be used by insurance companies, banks, credit companies, pharmaceutical companies (they are working hard on developing targetted advertising for drugs).

So, if someone could please explain to me when or how things changed dramatically in the world to make it a less safe place recently and how having my personal details will help make it safer, I would be grateful.
_________________________
www.conchcreative.com
Belize Wedding Photography

http://www.belizebirdrescue.com/bekindbelize.html

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#225231 - 01/02/07 07:49 AM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: collyk]
Sun&sand Offline
Good point, collyk. I agree that there has always been reason to be cautious, wars have been fought forever, planes have been hijacked, fear of bombings. I don't know when it started and don't know when it will end. I believe that human nature is good, and most people will do the right thing, and the promise of swift prosecution for the guilty may tend to keep some people from doing the evils. Unfortunately, the fear of God isn't instilled in a huge population, or the love of their God encourages radical acts. When we were growing up, our parents, or at least my parents, taught us right from wrong, we placed a value on human life, prayer was a part of our daily life, even if it was to just say grace at dinner and bedtime prayers. We were taught that if it isn't yours, leave it alone. If it hurts someone else, don't do it. I see every day, kids who couldn't care less if it belongs to someone else, if they want it, they'll take it, even if it means killing to get it. When parents leave the parenting up to the schools, the judicial system is afraid of what will happen to the judge if the gang leader is prosecuted, we ALL loose rights, even if they aren't publically stated. We lost control when we lost the compassion for eachother, when the kids had kids and had no idea how to be parents, when the "system" failed us. Now, it seems that a lot of people want the protection, but don't want to give up anything in order to get it. I don't know what the answer is, but I will gladly give up a few civil rights in order to feel safer.
_________________________
Live so that when you arise in the A.M, Satan shudders & says..
'Oh sh t..she's awake!'

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#225232 - 01/02/07 07:53 AM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Sun&sand]
Sun&sand Offline
Oh, and I don't know how giving up a few personal details will make things safer, but if it does, what's the worst that can happen. I mean, are we really so self absorbed or paranoid that we think the government is out to get us as citizens? If so, we should have thought about that a long time ago. I think they are happy we pay our taxes, and have bigger things to go after. If I'm wrong, I'll eat my words for sure, but I doubt they want my little piddly bank account, my investments, my credit cards..nope, I think they have bigger fish to fry.
_________________________
Live so that when you arise in the A.M, Satan shudders & says..
'Oh sh t..she's awake!'

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#225235 - 01/02/07 08:50 AM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Sun&sand]
sweetjane Offline
colly, you cant see me but i am giving you a standing ovation. extremeists have exsited throughout history. as a non-practicing jew, my people have been hated and under threat and persicution for centuries. it didnt shake us. people freak when we tell them we are travelling abroad, say "omg, arent the people violent there, i'd never do it. we are goning to vegas instead." we have never had one iota of trouble overseas. it is the people right here at home that are the most closed off and self-serving.

s&s - who took away your right to public prayer? if you mean in schools, well, i am more or less agnostic, so i do not want that forced on my kids, nor the non=christians in their schools. BUT, what you say of kids, in my experience, is a US phenomona. i dont see it in my travels.my area people only care how others perceive them. must have huge house huge car designer clothes. to have this, both parents work full time and no one is left to raise those children but uneducated day care providers.(i stayed home with my kids for 11 years, and still do). costa rican kids had nothing, and they shared it. turkish kids would never steal, it is against their religion (they also do not drink at all and have respect for their parents to the nth degree). i only see the envy, separation from family and values, and financial competition here in the good ole US.

perhaps my issue isnt with the govt so much as where our materialistic society and media and the resulting envy and fear has taken us.

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#225238 - 01/02/07 09:40 AM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: sweetjane]
Sun&sand Offline
I agree with you, sweetjane. I see it only here in the US as well. I have never experienced a fear in other countries, and we do travel extensively. On occasion, we have felt a little intimidated, but never afraid.
I also stayed home with my kids, as long as I could, and then took a job that allowed me to be home when they were home. I understand that today, it's almost impossible for a lot of people to do that, and it's easier to have the schools take care of the difficult stuff.
I respect your wish to not have your childred subjected to prayer, I don't think religion should be pushed down anyones throat if it isn't welcomed. I hope in return that you respect my wish to allow my kids to pray, and if your kids don't want to hear it, then don't listen. I don't have anything but respect for your religion, even thought I don't necessarily agree with your beliefs. Who is to say which one is right? I believe as I do, and give anyone else the same right, without question. But, when things go wrong, we are always looking to blame someone else. We need to look at ourselves and how we fit in to the puzzle. If we want to feel safe, we may just have to give a little. It isn't always about us as an individual. Sometimes, we might just have to give as a cohesive group, to make sure we, as individuals are protected.
Not a lecture, but something to think about. How wonderful it would be if we never had to be afraid, or concerned for our kids, but I'm afraid those days are over. I so wish it was different.
_________________________
Live so that when you arise in the A.M, Satan shudders & says..
'Oh sh t..she's awake!'

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#225240 - 01/02/07 10:57 AM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Sun&sand]
Anonymous
S&S - America is still one of the safest countries in the world for its citizens, despite what's happened and what's going on now. The biggest problem America has to deal with is the fear of terrorism. When I see US "security measures" at airports I'm afraid the words "panic" and "headless chickens" come to mind. How many actual terrorists would be intimidated by these measures? Wouldn't they just enter Mexico and drive over the border? How many potential terrorists does Tony Blair think will decide that entering Britain is too difficult once the new ID card system comes into operation?

Rykat may be right that Orwell wrote great fiction, but what he produced was a biting parody of what he saw going on around him, and people's reaction to it. He knew short-sighted people would be happy to give up all their liberties in favour of what they saw as salvation, but he knew the whole construct had the deliberate and malevolent intention of doing just that.

Don't just read fiction - look at what Hitler actually did on his rise to power, and the intricate planning he employed to ensure he could never be accused of breaking any laws. Or much further back, read EA Freeman's book on William the Conqueror, and see how he knowingly and deliberately manipulated the legal systems of England and the Papacy to get what he wanted. Back to modern times, look at how the development of the EU into an anti-democratic and autocratic superstate was planned in detail by its founder back in 1923, and how those plans have inexorably followed through.

The one major mistake people have always made is to believe that history doesn't repeat itself. Successful history ALWAYS repeats itself, because selfish people can see a benefit to them in making it happen.

In case that's a bit abstract, let me reinforce what Collyk is saying. If we give up our liberties in favour of what we believe may be short-term salvation we will have much time afterwards to regret our short-sighted decision.

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#225242 - 01/02/07 11:22 AM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Sun&sand]
sweetjane Offline
s&s, i believe you & i have more in common than this tread implies. and, tho i was born & raised jewish, i too dont agree with many of the beliefs either. i do not have a religion, only values. my kids' dad is a non-practicing catholic. all my kids friends are christian. i teach my kids 'to each his own', there is no right or wrong religion, and they indeed would respect your kids right to pray however they choose. we just dont think it should be in secular public school. prayer in school also makes many upwardly mobile asians in their school uncomfortable. separation of church and state.

due to my personal circumstances the past few years, i have re-thought a lot of things, and completely changed my thinking and my life. i have no problem with self-responsibility, tho i agree with you that many do. at this point, i think to feel safe and have a chance at a simple and happy life, i will have no choice but to leave my country. i am a (if i had to be classified) liberal, and now that is equal to an enemy of the state, and is a curse word. i am watching my future grandchildrens' world being choked to death because the bush family has personal oil interests to protect, (did you know brazil uses alternative fuel now and imports NO foreign oil??), soccer moms need Navigators, and the rainforest (as i saw in CR) is being decemated so the new american condo owners can eat big fat steaks instead of ricenbeans and fruit.

i sadly believe the american dream (work hard and you will succeed and your children will have a better life) has died with our parents' generation. so, i gave up a lot of material things (not my pc or my tivo!) and teach my kids how to be happy with what they have (which is hard cuz dad keeps buying new gadgets).

i'm sorry this had little to do with the original post, but thanks for letting vent.

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#225243 - 01/02/07 11:36 AM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: sweetjane]
sweetjane Offline
just read pedro's post. i read an interesting fiction book recently, in case you think the airport security is a panacea. fiction, but could happen:

idea was second generation islamic extremists already living and highly educated in biology/science here. they slowly and quietly released a chemical into society over a 10 yr period to allow a certain common bacteria or virus (?) to not have antibodies in us. the virus was so old and long battled, we had stopped making the cure. then, once we all were suseptible, they quietly released the virus. no one understood how simple it was and couldnt figure out what the people had. our bodies couldnt fight it, LA & NY were quarantined and by the time scientist knew what it was, millions died. others had killed each other to get a bed in an overfilled hospital.

airport secuity measures would never help a situation like this. if there is a way around, and someone has the patience and intellect, they will find it. again fiction, but sometimes fact is even scarier.

have a nice day laugh

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#225244 - 01/02/07 11:48 AM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: sweetjane]
Sun&sand Offline
Again, I agree with you, sweetjane. I, too, taught my kids values, more than religion. I believe in a higher "authority" and do have a relationship with my God, but I dont' feel the need to stuff it down others throats. Actually, we believe in the Great White Spirit, as my dad taught me, but mom was convinced that we needed to know her God, as well, so we know both.
I admit I find some of this debate concerning. In any event, I stick to my original opinion that I'll do what I can to keep my family safe, and to keep yours safe as well. If it is a mistake, I'll deal with it then. It it isn't, ebby tings gonna be OK.
We are leaving this country as well, as I think GWBush is waaay too self absorbed to see the forest for the trees. We pay an exorbitant amount of taxes, get hit harder every year, and haven't noticed much in return. I don't support the war in Iraq, and I hate having to contribute to it. But, that's a different subject, so we won't go there now.
I hope we get a chance to meet eachother, sweetjane. I know we have much in common, and I think I could learn from you.
Have a great week.
Susan
_________________________
Live so that when you arise in the A.M, Satan shudders & says..
'Oh sh t..she's awake!'

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#225246 - 01/02/07 12:12 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Sun&sand]
Otteralum Offline
I am a libertarian, and as such favor individual rights more than most. However, I am also a realist. In the end, the issue of rights vs. security comes down to where you want to draw the line.

Constitutionally and ethically, I think you can draw that line at our border. Communication and travel coming in or out should be subject to scrutiny. Beyond that, I am vehemently territorial over my right to privacy.

If anyone's interested in my take on life in general -- www.PurpleThink.com
_________________________
Say it 5-times fast: "I buy my BBQ and Belikins on the beach at BCs!"

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#225247 - 01/02/07 12:16 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Sun&sand]
collyk Offline
Very interesting and respectful debate. I can only add that for those of you concerned for the safety of your children (statistically your children are less at risk now than they ever have been), lets just hope that the information that you are willing to surrender now for their perceived safety is never used against them or your grandchildren by a future government. As we know, history tends to repeat itself. When it happens I dearly hope that yours are not among those persecuted. The Jewish community is not alone historically in being a persecuted people but I think many either don't know that or don't think about it and that makes them feel very safe with sharing their personal information. There have been times in recent history when being a protestant/catholic would lead to your death, being a single woman who likes cats would lead to your death, being romany would lead to your death and government backed genocide still continues to flourish all over the world. May not be happening in your country now, but while you remain scared of the bogey man from outside, it may be that he can exploit that opportunity to jump up and bite you in the bum.
_________________________
www.conchcreative.com
Belize Wedding Photography

http://www.belizebirdrescue.com/bekindbelize.html

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#225250 - 01/02/07 12:39 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: sweetjane]
Anonymous
Originally Posted By: sweetjane
idea was second generation islamic extremists already living and highly educated in biology/science here. ..... airport secuity measures would never help a situation like this


In the London bombings of 2005 (I think - I tend to lose touch after a while!) I think all of the bombers were identified as living long-term in Britain, some were born there, and one had been a teacher of primary school children in a remote rural (and ostensibly peaceful) area for many years. Not one of those people would have been caught by any of the "security" measures current or contemplated in Britain or the US.

I think the expression is "locking the stable door after the horse has bolted".

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#225251 - 01/02/07 12:51 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Sun&sand]
Anonymous
Originally Posted By: Sun&sand
In any event, I stick to my original opinion that I'll do what I can to keep my family safe, and to keep yours safe as well. If it is a mistake, I'll deal with it then.


As Collyk says, you may by then not be able to. For example, at present Britain could cecede from the EU, however difficult that might be in terms of practicalities. But there is a treaty in draft that will make membership of the EU irrevocable - once that is passed, and the bulk of the EU population have no idea that this treaty exists or of what is being done purportedly in their name, it will be an act of civil disobedience to attempt to cecede. The EU army (which already exists, though most Brits don't know that) will be sent in and the "revolt" will be put down. Yet lots of Brits (in particular) fondly believe that whenever they grow tired of this "club" they can opt to leave it.

This is why I find present developments frightening, and the unwillingness of many people to see what is happening around them deeply disturbing. How many of the people Hitler sent to the gas chambers thought they'd ride out the storm in the hope of something better on the other side?

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#225257 - 01/02/07 01:48 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: collyk]
Anonymous
[quote=collyk]I know I am going to regret this, but its been a while since I did something I'll regret, so it's about time.

Don't ever regret having an opinion whether "us" knuckleheads agree with it or not.
Having said that. I am not trying to be a wise a**, but other than annoying airport security, what rights to privacy do you feel have been taken away say in the past 5 to 10 years? Or, what civil rights have you been deprived of during that same period?
I ask that question for an answer, not as a lead in to slam!

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#225266 - 01/02/07 02:28 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Rykat - check (in the UK online newspapers) what rights the US authorities have recently taken for themselves over (eg.) people flying in from Britain. They will secretly inspect and probe all email and bank accounts they know about, and record all the information collected in a vast database. And once they know of these accounts they will continue to monitor them indefinitely. They will make decisions based on this information against which there will be no appeal. This would be illegal in Britain, but the US authorities simply said that unless they have these powers they will ban all incoming flights from Britain, so the UK government has agreed to break British law.

Already since 9-11 quite a number of British people have been denied admittance to the US based on incorrect information, usually related to mistaken identity. In one case earlier this year (I think) an airliner was ordered to return to Britain when it was already halfway across the Atlantic because the US authorities believed (wrongly) there was an "undesirable" on board. Quite apart from the cost to the airline (not compensated) what about the vast inconvenience and cost to the passengers, many of who were actually US citizens? You see, once the machinery has been put in place on the basis of preventing terrorism, it will be abused and used for whatever political or other reason the authorities choose - they aren't accountable so don't care.

In every case there has been vast expense and inconvenience to the people concerned, with no possibility of any appeal or recompense. The US authorities simply don't care - in no case (so far as I can tell) have they ever apologised, not have they even acknowledged that their facts were wrong and promised to change them. This is being done at your expense and in your name - do you approve of it?

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#225268 - 01/02/07 02:32 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
collyk Offline
Rykat, I by no means regret having an opinion. It is the expressing it on a message board that I may come to regret. It is a good question that you ask and in fact, in some ways some of my civil rights have probably improved in recent years. But as Pedro2 points out, things in Britain and Europe are changing at a rapid pace and these changes are concerning.

The way some of my rights have been infringed already is that information that was previously private is now available to marketing companies, insurance companies and banks. I don't like that. Medical records in the UK are much less confidential and while I don't think I have anything to hide now, one day I might feel I do or something seemingly innocuous now may be an issue in the future as a result. I don't think it is the government's business, much less any private company's business what religion I practice, whether I participate in legal activities or not, which social or political organisations I may be affiliated to, what my educational status is, my health, who I have relationships with what I watch on TV, what sort of food and household items I buy and where I bought them, etc etc. This is all information that is now being collected and stored by British and USA Governments and could be used against me in future. It is also available to commercial interests. I don't like it and this is something that has definitely crept up on us in the last 5 - 10 years.
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#225270 - 01/02/07 02:49 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: collyk]
Anonymous
Originally Posted By: collyk
Medical records in the UK are much less confidential


There was a case in England a few years ago of someone being refused life insurance, but when she asked why she was told it was confidential. She went to the relevant ombudsman (someone who checks and can override the administration) and after a lot of effort managed to get the decision opened to her. It turned out she was recorded as being HIV positive, though to her knowledge she had never been tested and certainly her lifestyle didn't suggest this was likely.

She tried to discover how the entry had appeared on her records but was unable to do so, on grounds of confidentiality (!). She requested an HIV test but was told this could only be done without her being told the result - another medical nonsense - but after a further struggle managed to get that ruling overturned. She then had the HIV test, which was negative. Her battle to get the medical record amended was then equally fraught - she was first told that the latest test result would be entered into the record, but that the earlier (incorrect) entry could not be deleted. This would mean a life insurance company, using automated procedures, would still regard her as HIV positive. Eventually she managed to get the record changed, having spent over two years and a lot of money and nervous energy.

This is just an example of mindless bureauocracy which can and does happen in any country, but based on personal information secretly gathered and disseminated. See any link to the main thread?

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#225273 - 01/02/07 03:02 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
Anonymous
No I don't see any link to the main thread there Pedro2, went thru something similar over 25 years ago(high blood pressure...insurance, never got it corrected) See no connect between that and today's security.

I was not aware of the restrictions in Europe and GB as far as airlines go...you mean to tell me when you board an airplane at Heathrow you have to provide US authorities with your e-mail address and bank account numbers to board?
Who is requesting the other info? Religion, food, tv shows?
Guess I gotta get out and travel more. On second thought maybe not!!

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#225274 - 01/02/07 03:06 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
Anonymous

You fear the threat from within.
I fear the threat from 'with'- out.
Convince me to agree!!!

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#225275 - 01/02/07 03:10 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
collyk Offline
Maybe you do Rykat. This sort of spying has been invading our lives insidiously for some time. With respect to food, all credit card usage is recorded and analysed as are reward and loyalty card schemes at stores. Anyone who has cable or sattelite has all of their viewing monitored. All employers in the UK require employees to fill out equal opportunities paperwork and your religion as well as other personal stuff is included. But this data is gathered in other ways as well. I am not paranoid myself as I really don't care and I just get on with my life, but I do feel that it is naive and sad that people think that this sort of information will keep them safer when it could be the contrary.
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#225276 - 01/02/07 03:13 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Rykat - I am surprised you don't see what to me is an obvious connection, but never mind.

You'll see if you read any of the online newspapers that the information is all being secretly gathered. If you pay by credit card you've just given them that account, and if you email any questions about your flight or booking to airline or agent, that gives them that account. From the data associated with the email they can (usually) tell the IP address of the computer it was sent from, and they can then search for any other email accounts accessed from that IP address. Until fairly recently this would have been impracticable, but as computing power increases in leaps and bounds it's quite straightforward.

And by installing spyware on your computer they can find out virtually everything you do on that machine.

If you don't know this is both possible and actually happening then you're living a decade in the past.

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#225281 - 01/02/07 04:00 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
LtoZ Offline
It is ironic that we call Muslim's terrorists- when here in the US we have individuals who bomb and threaten those who work at Planned Parent hood, those individuals who do hate crimes against an individual who they see different or that individual who does not live their life the way "they" think they should. Or those individuals who mail out packets of anthrax - are those terrorists? The press does not report these individuals as terrorists -those who bomb and murder- they report them as just your run of the mill criminal- where as if you are muslim your a terrorists. Is it okay for the TSA to require a pregnant muslim women to expose her belly in full view of the public to inspect if she is really pregnant? I think it important to protect ourselves but to also be aware of what it is we are protecting ourself from.

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#225282 - 01/02/07 04:10 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: LtoZ]
sweetjane Offline
i spent 10 days in turkey this past may, and i can tell you that muslims, not the extremists, are the most humble, friendly, outgoing, god-fearing, family-oriented, 'please come into my home we'll make you tea' people we have encountered. they will not steal or rip you off, it is against their religion.

i am more concerned i cant smoke in a bar here, my impeccable credit was messed with by Chase when i turned down a mortgage they offered to me, and i buy stuff online a lot so the underworld has access to my SS# and identity.

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#225284 - 01/02/07 04:14 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: LtoZ]
Sir Isaac Newton Offline
Olympic Park bombing
Oklahoma City

What is the profile of the child molestors in the US - white males from 20 to 55 years of age.

Perhaps all the other nations should profile before US white males are allowed to visit their country. I am sure there are more sex offenders than terrorists - fa sheezy
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#225285 - 01/02/07 04:16 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Sir Isaac Newton]
Sir Isaac Newton Offline
If the gov't did things to keep us safe, cars would be banned and we would walk or bike to work. Travel is dangerous but we are all willing to take the risk for speed and convenience and oh yeah, the oil business.
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#225295 - 01/02/07 04:52 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: LtoZ]
Anonymous
This is a very good point, LtoZ. In England we have many Muslims leading peaceful blameless lives, and whilst some of us think it would be better if more of them integrated more fully into UK society we can't really blame them for that. Lots of "minority" groups feel that to integrate would destroy their identity.

Saying Muslims are terrorists is a false generalisation which is damaging, hurtful and unproductive. Sure, some Muslims are terrorists (or just criminals), but then so are non-Muslims.

I have a problem with religious extremism whoever perpetrates it, and in the past Christians have probably outdone Muslims in their brutality (in fact I have a problem with religion anyway, but that's another matter). But I have a bigger problem with calling people terrorists purely because of their racial or cultural background.

There is an excellent book called Al-Qaeda by a British journalist Jason Burke (see an extract at http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/reader/0141019123/ref=sib_fs_top/203-3948046-6785541?ie=UTF8&p=S00U&checkSum=KeF6Jl9QWKK6Jju6rQOvR01AWFkXwueDO8AlXyHv6xw%3D#reader-page) which gives a very plausible explanation for Muslim extremism and points out that conventional interpretations of it are wrong and dangerously misleading. It certainly suggests that western attitudes to it, as demonstrated by the governments of both the US and Britain, are wrong and highly counter-productive. As it says, "the threat now facing the world is far more dangerous than any single terrorist leader with an army, however large, of loyal cadres". I strongly recommend anyone concerned either about the extremism itself or with the Bush/Blair approach to it to read this book.

Above all, please let us recognise that we are dealing primarily with attitudes, and countering someone's negative attitude about you and bringing them round is far more difficult than shooting them. Much better in the long run as well.

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#225299 - 01/02/07 05:20 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Sir Isaac Newton]
Anonymous
P2,some good points, don't know if true, but maybe.
LtoZ ?
sweetjane, Turkey,a rare gem - Democratic, Islamic (maybe Iraq will look the same in 20 or 30 years).
Totally agree with the smoking crap but there is no connection with PC and national security or invasion of privacy. The PC police will take "it" away just as quick as your gov't. Remember, those no smoking laws are being passed(small towns especially) by duly elected officials - who elected them? The PC "majority rule" idiots!?

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#225301 - 01/02/07 05:35 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
Anonymous
P2
"Saying Muslims are terrorists...."
"I have a problem with religious extremism..."

No one will disagree with those statements. What is the point of the book? What is "the threat now facing the world..."?

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#225303 - 01/02/07 05:45 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
LtoZ Offline
Aren't terrorists a group who terrorizes someone because of there beliefs? Because they do not like what they stand for?

terrorists are groups- not a nationality and it is not correct to categorize.

I don't know if I was misunderstood- but I do not think Muslims are terrorists..

america is such a young country and all the fighting in the middle east has gone on for centuries, who are we to think we can solve it?

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#225305 - 01/02/07 05:55 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
sweetjane Offline
rykat, i must say you have been a real gentleman here. kudos.

but, am i thick? or once they are elected, by whomever, then those officials ARE the gov't. no difference to me. the PC is the govt, who are pushed into making PC judgement calls thanks to the 'moral majority'. and if think that isnt so, then why is abortion a political issue? govt regulates business as well, and is allowing all kinds of rule bending with our personal and private information instead of protecting its citizens and their rights to privacy. and, as far as i know, the cia, fbi, nsa, whoever, has been free to make a file on anyone they want willy-nilly, for whatever reason they want. my ex wrote a paper on the sandanistas in college and got a 'file'. dumb, and scary.

and, as i said, now democrats are terrorist lovers. how much do we let go before someone speaks up for us, says the emperor has no clothes, and have this country ruled by the people and for the people? and i ask again, where does it end?

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#225310 - 01/02/07 06:05 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: sweetjane]
KC Jayhawk Offline
SJ, government of the people and for the people is still run by "people", with all their insecurites, failings and moral convictions. No government can be devised where ALL citizens of a country agree with ALL dictates of government. And no system of government can include ALL moral precepts (or lack of them) in its ruling philosophy. These are givens, and what we can do in this country and under this system to change our national course is far superior to what most persons on this planet have been blessed with. I can bitch about governmental interference with my personal lifestyle choices, but I can also rest assured that I will not be hauled off in the middle of the night because I dared to vote for George Bush or Barack Obama or Barney the Dinosaur. I am not inclined to paranoia, so I sleep pretty well.
_________________________
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#225313 - 01/02/07 06:16 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Sun&sand]
seachange Offline
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
Benjamin Franklin


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#225317 - 01/02/07 06:27 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: KC Jayhawk]
sweetjane Offline
kc, my friend, indeed all you say is true. i am not paranoid, i am concerned. and i have nothing to hide and sleep well at night myself. people arent being hauled off in the middle of the night in canada, sweden, costa rica, japan, or belize for that matter either. what i am is frustrated and disappointed. i am a advocate of fairness by nature, and i see so much unfairness.

we do not, as a people, get the oppotunity to vote on whether i can smoke in a bar, have an abortion, drive barefoot, have access to an affordable alternative fuel car, allow gay marriages, or have my privacy of finances and identity protected, and so on.

i am no expert, and never will be. i am just a person. i am very interested in hearing all of these views, this is how i learn. thank you all for participating.

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#225318 - 01/02/07 06:49 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: seachange]
Bobber Offline
One of our senators in years past made a statement which at the time I thought was a copout. On more thought ( I do think) I realized that he was correct. He was being called to task for a vote by some of his constituents who did not agree with him. His response was, by my recollection, along the lines of "You did not elect me to vote your way. I was elected to vote my conscience. This is a representative government. I represent you." So much of our politics today is either run as a popularity contest, or is expected to be a popularity contest.
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#225321 - 01/02/07 07:25 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Bobber]
Otteralum Offline
Yes Bobber. This is why I am very alarmed at the prospect of the US constitution becoming a "living document." This is just another way of saying that whoever is looking to win the next "popularity contest" can and should change the constitution to mean whatever the prevailing sentiment is. Horrible idea.

A strict interpretation of the constitution, as written, should forever be honored. Otherwise, popularly elected individuals can abuse us all.

If times change, great. Change the constitution -- otherwise sit down.

For practical purposes, what does this mean?

- The federal governemnt can levy taxes for national defense, promoting interstate commerce (i.e.: setting standards for the highway system), the postal service, and, well, that's pretty much about it.

- All else should be left to the states. States are poweless now because the feds tax too much. If the feds stuck to national defense, the states could experiement with socialized health care or anything else they want without imposing oppression on us all.

God help us if we continue down the path of senators being able to apportion monies for bridges to nowhere, promoting public art projects, and a litany of thousands of other expenditures that have no other purpose than payola for special interests.

Arrrrrggghhh
_________________________
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#225322 - 01/02/07 07:48 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Originally Posted By: Rykat
What is the point of the book? What is "the threat now facing the world..."?


You really need to read the book, or at least read the reference at the URL I gave. He is essentially saying Al-Qaeda is a way of thinking, a philosophy, not a specific group of people. And the more they see their ideas and ideals challenged the more they feel they have to defend themselves. The key thing is that the number of people who think this way is growing all the time, and all that Bush/Blair have been doing encourages and accelerates this process. But please read the book - it's extremely well written and authoritative and contains vastly more than I've said here.

I should have thought the threat facing the world was fairly obvious - religious extremists wreaking havoc everywhere, people afraid to travel, this thread basically.

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#225325 - 01/02/07 08:55 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
Bobber Offline
I am still wondering how one would change the philosophy. Is fighting them encouraging them? Would capitulating gain us anything? Is this about the Israel/Palestine issue? What is the dynamic here? My opinion is that it is a political issue, and the only way they could gain any traction is by wrapping it in religious outrage.
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#225330 - 01/02/07 10:02 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Bobber]
Sun&sand Offline
Wow. I'm enjoying the banter, and I am learning a lot from all of you.
I'm not very political, have my own beliefs, don't vote party, but vote issues. I will take what I'm learning here to the next election, and use it hopefully to make a wise choice.
I still don't object to big brother wanting a little info from me, so perhaps I'll just back out of this conversation now, and see how it goes.
Thank you all for your superior knowledge of this issue, and for educating me. I am so proud of all of you, even if I don't totally agree with you.
Peace!!!
_________________________
Live so that when you arise in the A.M, Satan shudders & says..
'Oh sh t..she's awake!'

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#225342 - 01/02/07 10:41 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Sun&sand]
Anonymous
Hold on s&s, you ain't gettin' outta here that easy. :-)

Completely agree, O. The Constitution as a living document only opens the door to further "writing" of the law by judges instead of what they are supposed to be doing, interpreting the law. Hopefully, with the present SC, strict interpretation will be back in play.
p2, you're URL doesn't tell me who the author thinks the threat is,at least I wouldn't think him so naive as to believe it is Al Qaeda. Better look to those states(and we all know which)sponsering the terrorism eg.Iran/Hezzbolah et al. Al-Qaeda is a pimple on an elephants a** without a state sponser...money!

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#225357 - 01/03/07 01:24 AM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
Anonymous
I'm not sure what the quote at the URL says, as it goes on several pages and I haven't looked at them all. But the point is that there is no "them" as such. Al Qaeda is not a body of men, or a nation state, or any collection of these. There is no organisation called "Al-Qaeda", despite what Bush/Blair and other shallow politicians say. It is an idea, an ideal, rather like a religion, and as such it's very hard to counter. Rather like Christianity, where they say you must have "faith" without seeking any intellectual support for that faith - the more it's attacked, the stronger the motivation for the "faith". The author does suggest hatred of the west may be borne from envy, but in itself that's also way too simplistic.

You really do need to read the book, as the subject is very complex. To encourage you, look at the Amazon.com website for the book and read some of the comments about it. It isn't "just another book" written by someone who thinks he understands what's going on, but an erudite and very well researched and cross referenced study by someone who has been closely involved in the area for many years. Please don't ask me to give a slick answer to what an expert struggles to cover in a lengthy book - I can't do it and I won't try.

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#225368 - 01/03/07 03:29 AM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
DB Offline
Extremism - whether conservative, liberal, religous or otherwise is dangerous IMHO. What has happened to reality, realism and practicality? Seems these are criteria left off the table and too much is decided on emotion and from the hip decision making.
Guess everyone's practicality depends on each one's situation maybe? These issues have been around since the dawn of man and will be until........
Just my 2 cents. Appreciate the forum smile


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#225384 - 01/03/07 08:44 AM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: DB]
sweetjane Offline
if officials are truely to be elected by popular vote, gore should have been elected president, and the very real issue of global warming would be being addressed. (had to squeeze that in).

remember i told you brazil has stopped importing foreign oil by producing their own alternative fuel. if we had doone that, we would not be concerned about protecting a family's personal business interests with our troops, and maybe the polar bears would not now be on the endangered species list because their food supply's timing has been altered by early ice break-up.


Edited by sweetjane (01/03/07 08:55 AM)

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#225388 - 01/03/07 09:49 AM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: sweetjane]
Anonymous
Bit of a divergence from the original thread, but do you think anything we might have done differently would have made any difference to the polar bears?

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#225391 - 01/03/07 10:16 AM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
Sun&sand Offline
I wish we were more self sufficient, and didn't depend on the other countries for our oil/fuel. I also wish we paid more attention to the environment when we could have made a huge difference in what's going on today. I wish the big businesses didn't have so much influence on how we manage our forests and oceans, world wide. I wish we didn't have to consider the possibility of evil taking over the good when we board airplanes or enter big buildings. But, hindsight is 20/20, and if we are smart (mighty big IF) we'll learn from the past mistakes, and do what ever we can to either correct the past errors, or vow not to make the same mistakes again. If it was just this easy. I don't know what the answer will be. I pray we find it before it's too late.
_________________________
Live so that when you arise in the A.M, Satan shudders & says..
'Oh sh t..she's awake!'

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#225392 - 01/03/07 10:32 AM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
Bobber Offline
I am in awe of President Bush. Who else has the power, in 6 short years, to adversely affect the climate and kill off the polar bears. Why is global warming the sole fault of the US? China and Russia produce more polutants than we do. I wonder what stupid thoughts went through the country founders to reject a popular vote for president. Could there possibly be any logic behind this? If you came from a large family, did you vote for dad as the family head? If there would have been a vote, would he have won? As far as "personal business interests" coming before the good of the country, what is this other than a rehash of the allegations that were the stock of the liberal campaigns. How about Clinton releasing oil from the strategic oil reserve ( I believe, twice) back in the mid 90's? Granted it was for cause, but the mutual beneficiaries to the action just happened to be big campaign contributors. Whew!, Unload completed for now.
_________________________
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#225435 - 01/03/07 12:15 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Sun&sand]
sweetjane Offline
no, of course not, p2. but maybe we could alter it for the next species in line to possibly go extinct because their climate and seasons are changing.

bobber, only US and australia of major countries didnt sign kyoto. we are largest co2 producer in the world by far. we made electric cars, and let the auto mfr PACs pull them. not our fault, but we arent helping either.

last week i replaced 25 lightbulbs in my home to low energy, lowered my thermostat several degrees, called handyman to reinsulate, switched to 50% wind energy. wish i could afford a hybrid, but cant.

i am not political, but i am environmental if i can.

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#225455 - 01/03/07 03:18 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: sweetjane]
Otteralum Offline
yeah we could have signed Kyoto and just ignored it like the EU did. Notice that their CO2 emissions are actually UP over the past 5 years???

At least we're dealing in reality -- geeze.

I agree with SJ that each of us should strive to be good stewards of the earth where we can. I have the answer (self-righteous as I am) in case anyone cares to consider it.

http://www.purplethink.com/epinion/PurpleGas.asp

Like it'll ever happen...
_________________________
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#225457 - 01/03/07 03:22 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Otteralum]
Anonymous
Otter, I don't know how realistic most Americans are about the issue. My impression is as long as they get their Happy Meals and their SUV's they're happy.

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#225458 - 01/03/07 03:38 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
Otteralum Offline
True law, but even more reason to make it a financial necessity. The Happy Meal and SUV set only like their Happy Meals and SUVs because it's fast and cheap (Happy Meals) or a status symbol (SUVs).

Make it fast, cheap, and trendy to do the right thing and we'll all give a s**t. Am I making it too easy??
_________________________
Say it 5-times fast: "I buy my BBQ and Belikins on the beach at BCs!"

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#225462 - 01/03/07 03:58 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Otteralum]
Bobber Offline
Jane, I applaud your committment. If nothing else, it saves you money that can be spent on travel.
Just doing some internet surfing, I see that it is accepted that the US produces 25% of the worlds CO2. Projections are that it will reduce through non-Kyoto means by 25% over the next ten years. I also see that the major greenhouse gas is water vapor (about 70%) I look at the carbon footprint and see that in the next ten years, the developing nations of the world will overtake the US (they are going up, we are coming down)in emmisions comprising the footprints based on an average. Perhaps there may be two sides to the coin? Reduced demand/usage is obviously a good thing, but don't be so fast casting stones regarding Kyoto.

OH, and Al G. spends a lot of time in private jets, going around convincing folk they should reduce their personal carbon footprint.

Sometimes opinions are all we have, this is mine.
_________________________
Been there, done that, the washing machine ate the T-shirt

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#225468 - 01/03/07 04:32 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Bobber]
Anonymous
Aww,sj, this thread was going so well till ya took that left turn at globullsh** warming! :-)
Anyone for Polar Bear steaks?

Rational 'purple' opinion, O!


Edited by Rykat (01/03/07 04:37 PM)

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#225471 - 01/03/07 05:09 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
sweetjane Offline
Ry, which brings us back to denial and buck-passing helping the nazi's to gain power. if i dont see or admit it, it doesnt' exist?

bobber - you are probably right, but i didnt see the gore thing yet, i read and watch science channel a lot. and, of course there are 2 sides to every coin. the questions are will 25% in 10 years be enuff, and can anyone reign in china (and others) in this respect. unfortunatly, i guess we won't know until we get there.

i am not perfect by any stretch, but i am learning, and trying to change. the wind power will actually cost me a little more for now, but i am trying to do my part...i have children, i want the best for them....

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#225472 - 01/03/07 05:32 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: sweetjane]
Bobber Offline
Consider everything you hear, on TV, read or whatever, from whoever (including Al Internet)as coming from someone who has a pony in the race. They will present facts (that support their idea, anyway), will fail to mention anything that contradicts their idea or belief. In general, take everything with a grain of salt. Pretend that all of these people screaming for your attention and support as latent timeshare salespersons ( we used to call them generically, snake oil salesmen).
_________________________
Been there, done that, the washing machine ate the T-shirt

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#225473 - 01/03/07 05:43 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
KC Jayhawk Offline
Bobber, great mental picture of Algore jumping off a golf cart and asking me if I've ever been to Banyan Bay!! laugh
_________________________
When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.

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#225475 - 01/03/07 05:53 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: KC Jayhawk]
Bobber Offline
Yeah. I remember back when he was vp. The security folk supposedly had code names for all of the principles. His was, again supposedly, algore.
_________________________
Been there, done that, the washing machine ate the T-shirt

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#225516 - 01/03/07 11:10 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Bobber]
Anonymous
algore/snakeoil..........Yup!!!

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#225519 - 01/03/07 11:39 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
TIMO Offline
reading some of these posts makes me think i am reading the screenplay from a michael moore film. same old tired rhetoric, give me something new to discuss/hash/ argue about....geeeeshhh!

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#225525 - 01/04/07 12:27 AM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: TIMO]
collyk Offline
If you are so bored TIMO, why don't you start an interesting and stimulating thread.
_________________________
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Belize Wedding Photography

http://www.belizebirdrescue.com/bekindbelize.html

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#225526 - 01/04/07 12:40 AM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: collyk]
Anonymous
because, Collyk, it's so much easier to simply generalize and namecall smile

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#225527 - 01/04/07 12:47 AM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: collyk]
TIMO Offline
where did i mention bored.....would like to hear some new arguements is all. the references to stolen elections and wars for oil, are old talking points. the same people complaining about govts. over stepping their bounds will be the same ones yelling the loudest about not being adequately protected after the next attacks. (god forbid) people want to do us westerners harm, and make tapes stating such all the time. it really doesn't matter what your politics are, you and i, we are targets just the same. wish it weren't so, but thats my opinion.

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#225528 - 01/04/07 12:50 AM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: TIMO]
TIMO Offline
who did i call a name........reading comprehension at its finest.

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#225529 - 01/04/07 12:53 AM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: TIMO]
Anonymous
TIMO, despite whatever delusions of grandeur you might have, you are not the only person who has posted here, thus you are not the only person to which my comment may have applied.


"Power has a way of undermining judgment, of planting delusions of grandeur in the minds of otherwise sensible people and otherwise sensible nations." - Senator J. William Fulbright, 1966


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#225530 - 01/04/07 12:53 AM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
Anonymous
Oh, and I'll match my reading comprehension skills against yours any day of the week.

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#225533 - 01/04/07 12:59 AM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
TIMO Offline
no delusions what so ever...the general flow of the posts seemed to indicate you referring to me. i humbly apologize if i have responded in an offensive manner.

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#225535 - 01/04/07 01:00 AM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: TIMO]
TIMO Offline
wow you must be real smart...i am so impressed.

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#225537 - 01/04/07 01:03 AM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: TIMO]
TIMO Offline
i have a book of thought provoking and inspirational quotes too!!

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#225539 - 01/04/07 01:10 AM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: TIMO]
Anonymous
I'm pretty difficult to offend, so no offense taken. I'm also pretty difficult to impress, so am a bit surprised that you are so easily impressed by someone you know nothing about. And before you hasten to explain that you were utilizing sarcasm, I got that. Am not surprised that you would be so quick to critize the "reading comprehension skills" of someone you know nothing about.

As for your thought-provoking book: ever read it?

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#225540 - 01/04/07 01:15 AM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
TIMO Offline
we ccould go tit for tat all night.... but i'll just let it go. as to the book, no, it looks good on my bookshelf though. g'nite.

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#225542 - 01/04/07 01:18 AM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: TIMO]
Anonymous
wink

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#225543 - 01/04/07 01:22 AM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: TIMO]
collyk Offline
Targets? Targets of what exactly? Bad advertising? Boring guys at the bar? Sorry I don't get the target thing. If you are saying that you live in fear, I can only state again that if you believe this it is very sad because as a 'westerner' you are safer than you have ever been. You are likely to live a longer and healthier life than ever in history and compared to the majority of people in the world you live a very priveleged life.
_________________________
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Belize Wedding Photography

http://www.belizebirdrescue.com/bekindbelize.html

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#225576 - 01/04/07 02:39 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: collyk]
Anonymous
AH HA!! "safer than you have ever been"? I guess we all know WHO we can thank for that!!!???!!! Thankyou, collyk, WE know the answer!

"Government's first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives". (Ronald Reagan)


Edited by Rykat (01/04/07 02:59 PM)

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#225584 - 01/04/07 03:56 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
sweetjane Offline
law, i think you're smart. laugh

i travel, as many of you do. what i see is that americans are not well viewed in some other countries (me & bf try hard to be like ambassadors, humble visitors. people often tell us they are surprised that we are so open, honest, and nice).

i'm taking another chance...but since the fact that we westerners are targets has been established here, anyone want to question WHY westerners as a whole are targets? like maybe our attitudes? maybe because we tend to think our ways of doing things are better than everyone else? maybe because we put material wealth before our own relatives, our old, and our poor? maybe because we go into countries we shouldn't? maybe because our corporations are all over the world exploiting other nations' citizens? not facts, just guesses.

though i know i am grateful and fortunate to have been raised here, i believe their reasons are the same reasons i am becomming disillusioned with "western" culture. please dont bash me, JMHO.

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#225586 - 01/04/07 04:06 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: sweetjane]
collyk Offline
rykat,

Sorry I wasn't clear enough about what we are safer from. We have a longer life expectancy and are healthier. Death and illness are the biggest threat to humans, followed by things like cars, cigarette smoking and alcohol abuse, not scary nasty bearded men hiding in caves in the sand. But all I can do on this subject now is shrug and say - if you choose to live in fear and instill that fear in your children, that is up to you. If you want to let that fear restrict your freedom and liberty, that is up to you as well. I am not scared and not willing to give up my freedoms. I like to relax and enjoy my life. I've been lucky enough to be blessed with good health and I am going to enjoy it for as long as I can. It does make me think though - I've been around a lot of bombs - primarily IRA but there were others. How many people currently living in such fear of terrorists because they've heard about on the news have actually experienced a terrorist action first hand? Nothing greater to fear than fear itself and wow is it a powerful tool in control and manipulation.

And Sweet Jane - I don't think Westerners are targets any more than other people. People from the USA have long been loathed in Europe - its not a new thing. When I arrived in London in 82 'yanks' were absolutely hated and vilified.
_________________________
www.conchcreative.com
Belize Wedding Photography

http://www.belizebirdrescue.com/bekindbelize.html

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#225587 - 01/04/07 04:08 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: collyk]
Marty Offline
W pushes envelope on U.S. spying

New postal law lets Bush peek through your mail
http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/485561p-408789c.html
BY JAMES GORDON MEEK
DAILY NEWS WASHINGTON BUREAU

WASHINGTON - President Bush has quietly claimed sweeping new powers to open Americans' mail without a judge's warrant, the Daily News has learned.
The President asserted his new authority when he signed a postal reform bill into law on Dec. 20. Bush then issued a "signing statement" that declared his right to open people's mail under emergency conditions.

That claim is contrary to existing law and contradicted the bill he had just signed, say experts who have reviewed it.

Bush's move came during the winter congressional recess and a year after his secret domestic electronic eavesdropping program was first revealed. It caught Capitol Hill by surprise.

Experts said the new powers could be easily abused and used to vacuum up large amounts of mail.

"The [Bush] signing statement claims authority to open domestic mail without a warrant, and that would be new and quite alarming," said Kate Martin, director of the Center for National Security Studies in Washington.

"The danger is they're reading Americans' mail," she said.

"You have to be concerned," agreed a career senior U.S. official who reviewed the legal underpinnings of Bush's claim. "It takes Executive Branch authority beyond anything we've ever known."

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#225590 - 01/04/07 04:18 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Marty]
Marty Offline
so now our government can peek thru our main. listen to our phone calls, go thru our back records, keep files on anyone who goes in or out of the country.

the KGB would be PROUD of the reductions in our basic privacy under this president.

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#225592 - 01/04/07 04:22 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Marty]
Anonymous
agree to partially disagree, collyk. I do not live in fear. Fear does not restrict my freedom, liberty or any aspect of my life,especially living in one of the safest communities in America, however I do try to be a pragmatist. I prefer to look at the world as it really is and not bury my head in the sand,hiding from the truth. There is plenty of evil, plenty of ugly. I just want to have my head "up" when and if it comes.

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#225593 - 01/04/07 04:26 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
dogmatic prevaricator Offline
would that be up your ass by any chance?
_________________________
If you must choose between two evils, pick the one you've never tried before.

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#225595 - 01/04/07 04:29 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: dogmatic prevaricator]
Anonymous
no room yours already there.

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#225596 - 01/04/07 04:30 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: dogmatic prevaricator]
Anonymous
dog - no one can say it quite like you! smile

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#225597 - 01/04/07 04:30 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
dogmatic prevaricator Offline
but you're all ass, so there's plenty of room
_________________________
If you must choose between two evils, pick the one you've never tried before.

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#225604 - 01/04/07 05:05 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: dogmatic prevaricator]
collyk Offline
Sorry Rykat, But just your comment that you live in one of the safest communities in America belies your statement that you do not live in fear. I feel safe in any community anywhere in the world and I don't have my head in the sand. I just know what the true risks are in life and they have nothing to do with terrorists.
_________________________
www.conchcreative.com
Belize Wedding Photography

http://www.belizebirdrescue.com/bekindbelize.html

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#225608 - 01/04/07 05:20 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: collyk]
sweetjane Offline
dog, i love you! marty, thanks for the info. my fears are not from the 'outside', my fears are right here too. this stuff is scary and wrong to me. i dont lose sleep, but i have concerns. pages ago i pondered where it will end. i just shake my head.

colly, when i said it was an established fact about targets, i was paraphrasing timo to make a point. not my opinion, as i agree with you, just to set it straight.

overseas as a teen, i too personally experienced a bomb evacuation. luckily for me, it was a dud. like you too, i have felt safer in many places abroad than in some US cities i have visited, including the one i was born in.

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#225610 - 01/04/07 05:57 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: sweetjane]
Otteralum Offline
SJ -- love that you qualify your comments -- you come across as genuine and respectful of others' opinions. Bless you girl.

If you are powerful you are vilified -- this has been true throughout history. If someone hates me because I'm American I think it says more about them as a person that they care to pre-judge me as one person in a nation of 300,000,000.

The U.S. simply believes that the wealth of nations should be managed by private entities rather than governments. This gets us in trouble with the narrow-minded because they see socialist EU nations tax their population to death and spend money on their behalf around the world.

Bear with me. Compared to most of the EU, America's government spends far less as a % of GDP as humanitarian aid to the world, yet we spend more per person than anyone else. How can this be?? Are we arrogant, immoral or just plain rude? No. We choose to allow individual entities (persons and companies) to spend their wealth as they choose. The results have yielded more philanthropy, not less.

I would disagree with SJ that our "corporations are all over the world exploiting other nations' citizens." Hard to find examples of this. And where they have been found (e.g.: nike sweatshops), it's our free press and caring populace that sheds light on the topic, changes things for the better, and forces native companies to do the same in order to compete for good employees. Just because there are more news stories about Americans doing ill, that doesn't mean there are more Americans doing ill. Of course you will see Americans behaving badly in the news -- thank God, it means it's still news that someone would run a sweatshop! I doubt the state-run press in China has uncovered all the sweatshops in that country.

In the end, the economic opportunity afforded by American businesses has raised the standard of living in China, Taiwan, Korea, Japan -- and even most of the EU far beyond what it otherwise would have been. The corrupt socialist nations of Africa were on par with the corrupt socialist nations of SE Asia as far as standard of living. One part of the world embraced freedom of markets and private property rights, another did not. Nobody can say SE Asia is anywhere close to Africa in terms of economic and, hell, just plain human development.

Now, if you want to argue that our MILITARY is out of whack and wreaking havoc, you have an ally here -- we're singing the same tune.

Just my two cents...
_________________________
Say it 5-times fast: "I buy my BBQ and Belikins on the beach at BCs!"

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#225619 - 01/04/07 06:11 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Otteralum]
Bobber Offline
This "perception" of Americans brings to mind a story. During the anniversary celebration (?) of the Normandy invasion, my ultra left wing college student nephew was touring Europe with a college singing group. His impression of France was "When we were in Normandy, the old people would line up to give us hugs, and would weep openly. When we were in Paris, the people would give us dirty looks and treat us as if we smelled bad" (I found that particularly amusing). The funny part was, he had no idea why that was.
_________________________
Been there, done that, the washing machine ate the T-shirt

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#225620 - 01/04/07 06:14 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Bobber]
Otteralum Offline
great illustration Bobber. I'm no fan of ultra left or right wing ideology as it blinds you to common sense.
_________________________
Say it 5-times fast: "I buy my BBQ and Belikins on the beach at BCs!"

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#225626 - 01/04/07 06:34 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Otteralum]
Anonymous
Yet it is an undeniable fact that most Muslim extremists (and many of the not-so-extreme ones) regard the USA as a reincarnation of the devil. Thoroughly evil and to be despised - and destroyed. These people genuinely believe this, so simply dismissing it isn't an answer. This is what the book I referred to majors on - attitudes and beliefs. Do we know what's caused this and how can we reverse it? Because until we do there won't be any peace in the world.

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#225629 - 01/04/07 06:38 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
Bobber Offline
Convert?
_________________________
Been there, done that, the washing machine ate the T-shirt

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#225632 - 01/04/07 06:44 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Bobber]
sweetjane Offline
bobber, i also dont go for extreme anythings. also, he is a college kid, and at that age i knew much less then i understand now.

the muslims i met in (western) turkey were just curious about us. asked a lot of questions. of course, they only got our opinion.

thanks otter, for saying i qualify wink .

i may not agree with everyone, but i (almost) always listen. as kcj so aptly states, i am just a housewife, but also a student of life. i am a work in progress...

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#225637 - 01/04/07 06:49 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: sweetjane]
divingcowgirl Offline
I'm just a piece of work.....so I've been told.... laugh
_________________________
Take the road less traveled

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#225638 - 01/04/07 06:50 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: sweetjane]
Bobber Offline
Jane, he WAS a college student. Now he is 10 years out of school and he considers college kids to be pretty much idiots (although he is still a political leaner). He says the greatest learning experience he ever had was getting out of college. grin
_________________________
Been there, done that, the washing machine ate the T-shirt

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#225639 - 01/04/07 06:55 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Bobber]
Otteralum Offline
Originally Posted By: Bobber
Convert?


lol!! I love it. Muslim extremists want us dead because THEY ARE MUSLIM EXTREMISTS!

They hate us because we are NOT Muslim extremists. Hell, they kill their own if they aren't extreme enough. Geeze -- I think I understand enough thank you. smile

Pedro, I believe we agree on military misuse (tell me if I'm wrong), but philosophically, it's misplaced energy to try and understand the origins of their hatred -- unless , of course you simply like history. I can tell you're a good guy so call me on anything that appears flippant or an attack -- I just gotta get this off my chest.

Muslim fundamentalists have always hated the West -- ALWAYS! It's just now they have the means to do something about it because of oil wealth and nuclear proliferation. That's why it's now so dangerous, not because we did a damn thing.

I'm not going to stop drinking alcohol or require my wife to wear a burkah because they hate us. And, until I do, they will not be satisifed. We can discuss if Israeli policy, backing the Shah, and other actions made it worse -- yada, yada, yada -- it's academic debate, nothing more.

Some more --
http://www.purplethink.com/epinion/Different.asp
http://www.purplethink.com/epinion/Playing.asp
_________________________
Say it 5-times fast: "I buy my BBQ and Belikins on the beach at BCs!"

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#225654 - 01/04/07 07:23 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Otteralum]
collyk Offline
ALL extremists would like to see their 'enemies' dead. This includes Christian extremists, animal rights extremists, anarchist extremist, racist extremists and a whole lot of other 'ists'. Just by existing you are likely to be on one of their hit lists whether you like it or not. I think it is easier for some people to think that there is only one group out there that wants them dead, well think again. So, what is the point in living in fear and worrying about it. You are more likely to get hit by a drunk driver.
_________________________
www.conchcreative.com
Belize Wedding Photography

http://www.belizebirdrescue.com/bekindbelize.html

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#225657 - 01/04/07 07:35 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: collyk]
Otteralum Offline
very true. Well said. Don't live in fear -- live the dream!

(sorry Captain)
_________________________
Say it 5-times fast: "I buy my BBQ and Belikins on the beach at BCs!"

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#225660 - 01/04/07 08:17 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Otteralum]
Marty Offline
i'm an okieextremist

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#225661 - 01/04/07 08:19 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Marty]
Marty Offline
the far left wing and the far right wing meet round back at the garbage can

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#225665 - 01/04/07 09:02 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Marty]
Bobber Offline
dum de dum de dum.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070104/D8MEJEU00.html

Another interesting story. Secondhand info, but trust the source. Take us back to the death of the late great Iranian Ayatolla cantspellit. Pictures shown on the media showed the funeral procession in (I believe) a soccer stadium. The pallbearers were so distraght (said the news) that they dropped the coffin in their grief and if my memory serves me correctly, spilled the body.

The uncle of my then sister in law, an Iranian, reported that the government had offered food vouchers to get the stadium packed. Otherwise it would have been mostly empty. Their mistake was starting to pass out the vouchers while the coffin was being carried. The pallbearers were afraid they wouldn't get their payment, so they dumped the coffin and headed for the goodies. Again, secondhand, but the source is trusted. Sister-in-laws dad moved the kids out when the shah fell, a couple to the US and a couple to the UK.
_________________________
Been there, done that, the washing machine ate the T-shirt

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#225727 - 01/05/07 01:35 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Sun&sand]
Sun&sand Offline
Just a clarification here. I've really been enjoying this thread, have learned a lot. I don't think we "live in fear" but instead live with a certain amount of caution. I don't run with scissors, don't think it's good to Pee into the wind for guys, and don't think I want to board an airplane with someone who refuses to remove his/her shoes going through security. This happened the last trip we took, and they took him off of the plane. No one singled him out for his ethnic background, but his a**holness. I would have taken another plane had they allowed him to board. Does that make me "live in fear" or live with caution? I wasn't afraid of flying, but had a choice in who I flew with. If I don't know, then I appreciate any efforts the Gov. can make to lessen my chances of flying with a weirdo like this. If that's the worst of my day, then it's a pretty good day.
_________________________
Live so that when you arise in the A.M, Satan shudders & says..
'Oh sh t..she's awake!'

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#225734 - 01/05/07 01:58 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Sun&sand]
Anonymous
Good stories, by the way Marty,where does the "mush in the middle" meet at the Rodney King statue singing 'kumbayah'?

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#225737 - 01/05/07 02:05 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
Marty Offline
well Rykat, this time they met at democratic HQ and voted out the repubes

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#225738 - 01/05/07 02:08 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Marty]
Anonymous
Conservatives will return, they always do! Left will screw it up in a few years and back we will come!!!

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#225743 - 01/05/07 02:22 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
reaper Offline
When will the clear thinking Americans take over?????

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#225765 - 01/05/07 04:01 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: reaper]
dogmatic prevaricator Offline
fog generation at it's best
_________________________
If you must choose between two evils, pick the one you've never tried before.

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#225766 - 01/05/07 04:02 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: reaper]
sweetjane Offline
clear thinking americans taking over? a novel idea. good luck waiting for that. even if one got into an elected position, i think the corruption of power would get him, or he will be broken by his constituants. crap shoot. will keep my fingers crossed.

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#225770 - 01/05/07 05:13 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: sweetjane]
Otteralum Offline
left/right wing thinking is killing us all -- is their a better paradigm?

Perhaps you're like me and fall in 3 dimensions instead of 2 -- take the quiz and find out.

http://www.politopia.com
_________________________
Say it 5-times fast: "I buy my BBQ and Belikins on the beach at BCs!"

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#225776 - 01/05/07 05:44 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Otteralum]
Anonymous
Oh Yuch....took the test...

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#225778 - 01/05/07 06:13 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Otteralum]
Bobber Offline
You hit it Otter. Neither side gets what they want (no matter which is best for the country) but settle somewhere in between (again, no matter which is best). Neither side wants to be perceived as being a loser in any issue. If one side had a cure for the common cold, the other side would stifle it because it didn't come from them (altho in my opinion, the sides would not do it equally). I guess that is what you get when being a politician is a lifetime job, if you can just scam enough people or gain enough power. Heavy sigh.
_________________________
Been there, done that, the washing machine ate the T-shirt

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#225782 - 01/05/07 06:53 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Bobber]
collyk Offline
It doesn't matter who you vote for, the government always win.
_________________________
www.conchcreative.com
Belize Wedding Photography

http://www.belizebirdrescue.com/bekindbelize.html

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#225784 - 01/05/07 07:01 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: collyk]
Otteralum Offline
I can see why you feel that way colly, but I refuse to succumb to defeatism on this. Call me naive, but I have to believe there is always a chance to enact real change.
_________________________
Say it 5-times fast: "I buy my BBQ and Belikins on the beach at BCs!"

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#225785 - 01/05/07 07:09 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Otteralum]
collyk Offline
Ah but that is a big difference between you and me Otterlaum. Actually I have admired your posts and your site and we have some stuff in common. But I don't do democracy. I could get into a long dialogue about why, but it is not defeatist at all. I've been on too many committees, boards and done too much political stuff in my time to believe that the majority (which in my eyes equals mob rule) are capable of making sensible decisions on my behalf. Geez am I gonna get hammered for admitting this one.
_________________________
www.conchcreative.com
Belize Wedding Photography

http://www.belizebirdrescue.com/bekindbelize.html

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#225788 - 01/05/07 07:12 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: collyk]
Otteralum Offline
That's okay. Thanks for the compliment.

I see democracy as a means to liberty. Unfortunately I think most see democracy as an ends to itself. This sucks because democracies can vote in Islamic law if they choose (and have).

We made huge mistakes by allowing the constitution to be violated in favor of being "enlightened" and "with the times." BS, it just puts more complexity and bureaucracy in democracy.

I would argue that it isn't democracy you loathe, but what it's been allowed to become.
_________________________
Say it 5-times fast: "I buy my BBQ and Belikins on the beach at BCs!"

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#225791 - 01/05/07 07:35 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Otteralum]
collyk Offline
You are probably corect.
_________________________
www.conchcreative.com
Belize Wedding Photography

http://www.belizebirdrescue.com/bekindbelize.html

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#225870 - 01/06/07 03:18 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: collyk]
Sir Isaac Newton Offline
yawn
_________________________
Check out my site: www.ambergriscayerealestate.net

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#225915 - 01/07/07 06:47 AM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Sir Isaac Newton]
Anonymous
it even breathes?

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#225930 - 01/07/07 02:27 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
Sir Isaac Newton Offline
Is that elephant dung I smell, oh "Hi" Rykat happy, Sunday!
_________________________
Check out my site: www.ambergriscayerealestate.net

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#225940 - 01/07/07 09:13 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Sun&sand]
Tom Reese Offline
Hi my name is Tom Reese, I've been coming down to Belize for over 30 years. I was wondering if anyone knew how I could contact a man with the name of Pete who is a fishing and snorkeling guide, he has a son named Repete but I don't know his last name. If anyone could tell me his number or email address that would be much appreciated. My phone number is 309-944-8901 and my email is tom@springfield-armory.com. Thank you.
-Tom Reese

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#225941 - 01/07/07 09:45 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Tom Reese]
Anonymous
too far away, sweetcakes, must be one of your family members!

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#226750 - 01/14/07 08:54 AM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
Anonymous
It goes on:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=N1YOUENXZE1GVQFIQMGCFGGAVCBQUIV0?xml=/news/2007/01/14/ndata114.xml

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#226757 - 01/14/07 11:24 AM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: ]
Otteralum Offline
bad bad bad idea.

Why is government so concerned about makingthings more "convenient" for me. Just stay the hell out and I'll make things more convenient for myself, thank you.
_________________________
Say it 5-times fast: "I buy my BBQ and Belikins on the beach at BCs!"

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#226854 - 01/15/07 02:03 PM Re: Big Brother ..... [Re: Otteralum]
Anonymous

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