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#265678 - 02/02/08 04:43 AM Gov't Interference Extends to the Schoolroom
klcman Offline
With all the talk, on another thread, about gov't interference in our lives, I found this article rather timely, though I think it stinks.....

http://knox.villagesoup.com/Community/story.cfm?storyID=108448
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But then what do I know, I am but a mere caveman

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#265681 - 02/02/08 05:14 AM Re: Gov't Interference Extends to the Schoolroom [Re: klcman]
azbob Offline
Leve it to those in authority to stop us from doing the things that feel good. Good find klcman.
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"Hold on Tight To Your Dreams" ELO

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#265684 - 02/02/08 06:13 AM Re: Gov't Interference Extends to the Schoolroom [Re: azbob]
Rykat Offline
Only in the Soviet Socialist Republic of Maine. :-)

Now, one and all....has anyone ever failed to smile at the sound of a fart? (I said SOUND)
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GOP - The Party of Lincoln.

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#265711 - 02/02/08 04:03 PM Re: Gov't Interference Extends to the Schoolroom [Re: Rykat]
Otteralum Offline
I think it's silly there needs to be a formal rule. However, it used to be that if a student was being intentionally disruptive, for any reason, the teachers had the support from parents to forcefully bring that child into line. Now, schools need to codify every last possible infraction to keep from incurring the wrath of over-protective parents itching to sue.

As a parent of schoolagers today gentlemen -- this is unfortunate, but I see why stuff like this happens. Sad really.

_________________________
I will have a Belikin -- put it on klcman's tab.

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#265718 - 02/02/08 04:34 PM Re: Gov't Interference Extends to the Schoolroom [Re: Otteralum]
pugwash Offline
I could not imagine having a more wonderful father: he taught me so much, both formally and by example and never raised his hand to me in anger.

If I had pulled the farting stunt, or if disrespected my mother or teachers, I would be sent to my room to ponder my actions, and then I would receive my punishment…never administered with rage, but always with out any doubt as to why….

Today, he’d be in jail, and I would be a ward of the government!


_________________________
It's rarely rocket science, it's usually just math: then again if you can't do the math.......

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#266009 - 02/04/08 07:09 AM Re: Gov't Interference Extends to the Schoolroom [Re: pugwash]
Leah-Ann Offline
Originally Posted By: pugwash
Today, he’d be in jail, and I would be a ward of the government!


Exaggeration and outright false statements ruin discussions like this. Parents do not get thrown in jail and/or have their children taken away for utilizing corporal punishment. Unlike most civilized countries in the world, corporal punishment is still legal in the US. Personally, I find the deliberate infliction of pain as a method of changing a child's behavior abhorrent.

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#266150 - 02/04/08 11:02 PM Re: Gov't Interference Extends to the Schoolroom [Re: Leah-Ann]
pugwash Offline
I'm sure to get creamed for this, but....

Did you forget I was schooled in England, which may account for my wit and intellect, as well as my spelling!

Corporal punishment is lawful in the home, though the defence of “reasonable chastisement” has been limited by amendments to the law in England and Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. English common law has allowed parents and others who have “lawful control or charge” of a child to use “moderate and reasonable” chastisement or correction. A ruling in 1860 by Chief Justice Cockburn stated: “By the law of England, a parent ... may for the purpose of correcting what is evil in the child, inflict moderate and reasonable corporal punishment, always, however, with this condition, that it is moderate and reasonable.” It was left to the courts to decide what is meant by “moderate and reasonable” in any particular case.

In Scotland the common law defence was restricted by a provision in the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act (2003), section 51 of which introduces the concept of “justifiable assault” of children, defining blows to the head, shaking and use of implements as unjustifiable (in relation to children under the age of 16 years). In determining whether an assault is justifiable, courts are required to consider a list of factors. In England and Wales, section 58 of the Children Act (2004, in force 2005) enables parents to justify common assault of their children as “reasonable punishment”, but prevents the defence being used in relation to more serious assault charges. In Northern Ireland, the common law defence is restricted by article 2 of the Law Reform (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Northern Ireland) Order (2006) to the lowest charge of common assault and is not available for offences such as wounding, assault occasioning actual bodily harm, grievous bodily harm or cruelty to a child.

In January 2006, the government rejected calls from the UK’s four Children’s Commissioners to prohibit all corporal punishment, including by parents. Debate is under way again in 2007 as the Department for Education and Skills has launched a public and professional consultation to ascertain the practical consequences of the legal reforms and to gather parents’ views on physical punishment. The findings are to be presented to parliament in the autumn.


Perhaps i was a triffle sudden: I should have said Tomorrow, He'd be in jail, and I would be a ward of the government!

I have no problems at all with ordered and appropriate discipline: there is a world of difference between that and hitting a child in rage

What I find abhorrent is to raise a child with no concept of action and consequence, of civility and manners, and no reasonable expectations of failure without output of effort?

If you teach a kid that them laying on the floor in Walmart screaming will result in your giving them candy in order to get them to stop, guess what happens the next time the kid wants candy........

In the early 80’s I was married, and inherited a totally spoilled stepson: He was 13 when I married his mother and 16 when we parted, and it seemed like no-one had ever said "NO" to him in his life!

The first few weeks as a family unit were rough to say the least: We had to start with 3 simple phrases….please, thank you and excuse me, and then work from there.

I ate macaroni cheese and hot dogs 2 or 3 times a week it seems, but we also ate Dinner each night all together at the table, with real vegetables, and with no TV on. The kids (also an 8 year old daughter) did not have to eat anything they didn’t want to, but no one left the table until we were all done, and a visit to the fridge for a snack latter was not allowed.

I kept him off the football team for one game when he was reprimanded in school for disrespecting a teacher, all this despite the coach telling me how “important” a mid season Pop Warner game was, and the only time I administered a “butt whooping” was when he spat at his mother.

Within 3 months, people were telling us that our kids were so well behaved, and it must be because they were brought up in England, (this despite the fact they had never been out of Texas!) When I replied, “No, its just called parenting” I would get strange looks?

After our divorce, he went to live with his father, who had just been released from prison, and I lost track of him

I last saw my stepson in 1992, 7 years after my divorce from his mother. He came to a Lollapalooza concert that I was working at, and told me that although he thought I was a real Asshole when he first met me, I was the only person in his life who ever instilled any dicipline in him, or showed him right from wrong and he wanted to thank me! His Dad has gone back inside, and most of his friends had been in jail or juvy, but he had remembered some of the lesions I had taught him, and kept himself out of trouble.

It was one of the proudest moments of my life, and I was so thankful I had been able to pass on some of life's lessons that my father had taught me.
_________________________
It's rarely rocket science, it's usually just math: then again if you can't do the math.......

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#266387 - 02/06/08 05:51 AM Re: Gov't Interference Extends to the Schoolroom [Re: pugwash]
seaexplore Offline
what a great story!

I'm a teacher and I see the disrespect daily!

Today one of the other teachers gave an assignment for her class to do a "how to" paper. One of the girls in her class pipped in "How to give a BJ". She was asked to leave the room and went to the office to speak with the principal. The teacher called the girls GRANDFATHER not her parent (parents wouldn't do anything) and the grandfather was shocked that she would say such a thing. The same girl is disruptive in my algebra class because there are NO consequences from mom/dad. I could go on and on about kids....

I have a 7th grader who refuses to be quiet while I'm teaching science- I told him that I would invite his father in to join us and he didn't seem too concerned. I've met this father many times and explained that his student is a BULLY, and DISRUPTIVE in my classroom. NOTHING is done! I issued the kid a referral and it came back the next day FORGED. Called dad- NOTHING was done. Hmmmm...I would love to blister this kids butt for him but I'm not allowed. All I can do is kick him out of class so the others can learn and write him disciplinary referrals that probably don't matter at all at home. And we wonder why kids aren't learning- get rid of the kids who don't want to pay attention and then teachers can teach rather than babysit! Sorry- It's a subject that I feel really strongly about!

I see nothing wrong with a smack on the butt if a kid is being naughty and disrespectful. My parents firmly believed in this as well as time outs and natural consequences. As far as I can see kids have too much power and are running families. And I'm only 33!!!!!
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do I have to get shots to go there? 8o)

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#266392 - 02/06/08 07:32 AM Re: Gov't Interference Extends to the Schoolroom [Re: seaexplore]
pugwash Offline
I want to make it clear that I don’t advocate beatings on a daily basis, it’s just something you never take off the table!

I only ever spanked John once, but that was enough: once he knew it was out there, he didn’t push the limits again. That's why water boarding terrorists or the death penalty for certain heinous crimes should never be mandated against, because as soon as they are, the next thing at the top of the secular–progressives hit list will then get all the attention:its an ongoing war of attrition !

With regard to educational standards:
A recent UKTV poll of under20’s in Britain revealed that 25% though Winston Churchill was a fictional character, whereas 47% thought Robin Hood to be real! 65% believed in King Arthur, yet 47% didn’t think Richard the Lionheart ever existed, and 27% didn’t believe in Florence Nightingale, while 58% thought Sherlock Holmes was a for real crime solver!

Tax dollars (or pounds) at work: Perhaps we were smarter when the threat of a visit to the Headmaster loomed large?
_________________________
It's rarely rocket science, it's usually just math: then again if you can't do the math.......

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#266394 - 02/06/08 11:29 AM Re: Gov't Interference Extends to the Schoolroom [Re: pugwash]
Leah-Ann Offline
I strongly advocate consequences - and they should be something serious - not, "You can't drive the Mercedes this weekend, you have to use the Honda." But I strongly disagree that employing violence in an attempt to teach a child to change behavior is a good idea. While there may be immediate compliance on the part of the child, countless studies demonstrate conclusively that there is an undeniable corelation between the use of physical pain as punishmet and increased child aggression, antisocial behavior, depression and bullying. Sure this isn't true in every case, but there is a marked increase in these areas. (http://www.apa.org/releases/spanking.html)

The strongest message sent to a child who is subjected to physical pain in order to attempt to effect change in behavior is that "might makes right." As long as you are bigger or stronger than the other guy, you can make him bend to your will. This is a horrible lesson and there are much more effective ways to teach correct behavior.

As for torture and capital punishment, how sad that anyone would find this an acceptable way to treat another human being.
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I can never remember which is better . . . safe? . . . or sorry?

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