Belize-N-US, we started this discussion on the other thread but I moved here since it is a new topic.

As I understand it, you are trying to obtain a license to practice in Belize and disagree with their policy to restrict foreign doctors competing with Belize doctors. I get quite a bit of my medical work done in Belize and have been satisfied with the care. I guess I would agree with the policy protecting the Belize doctors from others coming to practice just like the government restricts work permits in other areas. From my experience, I see the availability of medical services by Belize doctors to be sufficient with the exception of many interior areas of the country. I certainly do not see a lack of doctors on AC. Belize doctors certainly do not have the income potential of doctors in the US and I think it would be a disincentive to attract Belizeans to study and practice medicine in their country if the country were to allow US doctors to semi-retire and practice there.

I agree with you 100%. The doctors here are good. Since rates for the doctors here are so reasonable I believe if Doctors from North America come down and start part time/full time their rates would not be affordable to most Belizeans.

I disagree with both of you.

Why don't you say the same about every other industry in Belize then? Why let any American or European into Belize and why give them permits for what they are doing? Who's to say that an American or Europeans rates aren't going to be affordable or necessary in Belize. I thought there were doctors there from other places and from what I heard they were a huge asset on the island.

Correct Bywarren and Purdygirl. A U.S. doctor could not make it with the going rates in Belize, unless he was very well off to start with. BNU, I believe said he was 40 y/o and most likely still repaing loans. JMO

I don't consider it to be a matter of what the US doctors would charge so much as taking business from Belize doctors that have a hard enough time now making a living.

Believe it or not not all doctors who move to a country like Belize are doing it just for the money. Strongly disagree with you all that they shouldn't be given a permit for health care and to save lives.

I disagree.

"I get quite a bit of my medical work done in Belize and have been satisfied with the care. I guess I would agree with the policy protecting the Belize doctors from others"

Warren, that statement is contradictory. If you are satisfied then you would not change to a US doctor would you? If you are satisfied then others are as well and would not change to a US doctor just because he/she are from the US. Then the Belize doctors don't need government "protection" from a US invasion.

Why "protect" the Belize doctors only? Why not extend that same "protection" to utility companies, realtors, dive shop owners, hotel owners, ect.,ect.?

A free market creates opportunties and services, it doesn't limit them.


"I certainly do not see a lack of doctors on AC."

If you were a pregnant woman on AC who was bleeding to death from a placental abruption and needed a C/S delivery to save your life or that of your unborn child then I think you would see a lack of doctors and or services in a hurry.

If you fall and pucture your abdomen on a stick or something and need urgent surgery to save your life I think you will see a need for more doctors and or more services on AC.

These statements are NOT anti-Belize doctors which according to you do a good job. I have not needed them so I have no personal knowledge of their skills. This is simply a statement of the lack of some very important services on the island, some of which I personally would like to be able to provide and be some what compensated for.

take business from Belize doctors? What about all of the other industries Americans, Canadians, and Europeans take away from Belizeans? This is at least a necessity!

Spl, my point is Belize should determine what skills and job they feel are needed for the country and protect jobs for Belizeans. Belize-N-US disagreed with the governments policy of doing this.

Belize-N-US, if you are willing to provide services that are not now available, then I agree with that just like I agree with the doctors that come here and donate services in specialties and areas where it is not available. I do not agree with a US doctor coming to Belize to practice medicine that Belize doctors can provide.

i am commenting in general - not regarding the doctors - in reponse to spl. my understanding is that a non-belizean resident can only obtain a permit to do business if they OWN the business, or it is a business /job that a belizean is incapable of doing.

this is to protect belizeans, and i (tho i don't live there) see the point.

there is always the possibility that gringo transplants who can afford possible higher rates would prefer a gringo dr, but that's a stretch. i do not know of anyone over the years who had a bad experience with the local doctors, tho i'm sure people cannot be 100% satisfied in every case.

ByWarren make some very good points. We have a number of excellent physicians on the island. The PolyClinic does not have the facilites for surgical procedures. That is a somewhat complicated undertaking. First of all the funding needed to equip and maintain such a facility, is simply not available. Post Op care , follow up for complications etc. At present there is no full time anesthiologist. (One is on the island, but has not been able to obtain the necessary liscense.) San Pedro does have a fairly large Spanish speaking population and fluency in Spanish is certainly an advantage if not mandatory.
Belize-N-Us, you may want to consider volunteering on a medical project. There are many such groups offering their services through out the country.

"If you were a pregnant woman on AC who was bleeding to death from a placental abruption and needed a C/S delivery to save your life or that of your unborn child then I think you would see a lack of doctors and or services in a hurry.

If you fall and pucture your abdomen on a stick or something and need urgent surgery to save your life I think you will see a need for more doctors and or more services on AC."


Actually for these cases it is not due to a lack of Doctors it is a lack of facilities. At this time these types of emergencies are transported to Belize City. This is the time you see the BATSUB helicopter come in and bring the patient to a larger hospital with the equipment needed.
Do I think AC need a larger and better equiped clinic...Yes.

Also I think that the only Belizean born doctor on the island is Dr. Daniel

I want to live there full time.

In order to do that I will need some income.

"At present there is no full time anesthiologist. (One is on the island, but has not been able to obtain the necessary liscense.)"

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. You have a needed service and a qualified doctor willing and able to provide said service but is unable to do so for hire do to government "protectionism" which is not needed.

How could I charge more for my services and expect people to use me? A free market would demand that I charge the going rate.

No U.S. doctor would come to Belize with his/her primary focus being money. I know I would make a small fraction of what I make here and I'm ok with that.

"I want to live there full time.In order to do that I will need some income." - LOL LOL i would think you have a lot of company in that statement!!

seriously, how would you perform these complicated services without the facility? can you afford to fund and build it? if not, 'fraid you may be SOL.

i believe a friend on the island once told me their c-section and recovery in bz city cost around $1500 total.

"Do I think AC need a larger and better equiped clinic...Yes"

A facility doesn't have to be large to be adequately equipped. Two birthing rooms and one surgical room would be adequate for the OB services on the island.

All I need is the green light from the government and six years to get my sons out of school, debt squared away and hopefully Belize house built and paid for and I'll be there to set all this up and get it running.

I have already accomplished this at my present location. I came back to my home town and restarted the OB program after it was claosed for 13 years. I have been here 8 years now and still I am the only doctor in town providing these services. Starting from scratch is not as difficult as it may sound.

"i believe a friend on the island once told me their c-section and recovery in bz city cost around $1500 total"

If you're talking US dollars I get paid 1/2 that amount from medicaid which most of my patients are on.

And yes I would plan to build / remodel / equip my own facility.

Without getting into the details of what medical services are and aren't available, my different view point from Belize-N-US is about "protectionism". I believe it is necessary for the Belize government to restrict work permits just as they are doing to protect jobs for Belizeans and those who are not Belizean but have qualified to work in Belize. Just because someone wants to move to Belize they are not entitled to work and do whatever they want - just like in most countries including the US.

bywarren, I am clear on your opinion.

I just disagree with it.

Who do you think I would employ? Answer, local Belize residents.

Who do you think I would mostly serve? Answer, local Belize residents.

This would be a win-win situation as I see it.

Hey, go for it and good luck. You probably have something to offer. Just be prepared to deal with restrictions, red tape, and all the other stuff "island life" will present you with.

Here's an idea... Since it's relatively easy to get a self employment license, why don't you get one to set up a clinic and hire doctors already on the island or in the country to perform the medical services? Or instead rent the clinic beds and offices out to those patients and doctors who need them but don't have them.

May not be your first choice, but would provide you income while providing the services required without a need for a medical license.

Protectionism helps only those in the highest places of power. Protectionism helps noone it is intended to help. Government intervention in any free market activity always has unintended consequences.

I recommend picking up a copy of "The Revolution: A Manifesto", by Ron Paul. It's a great read.

He might want to talk to those who finally got a clinic on the island and how long and how hard it was to accomplish that.

Damn, Dead finally said something I agree with

Belize-N-US, I don't mean to sound condecending, but after 39 years of "experiencing" Belize, you do not want to come here and expect to tell Belize how things should be done.

I'm nothing if not agreeable...

It is understanable that he is frustrated over having the training and experience to fulfill a stated need, but not the legal right to excercise that training and experience to fulfill that need.

That will be just the start of frustration. Don't Stop The Carnival . A better read for moving to Belize than Ron's book.

You may want to talk to Dr. Gonzales, he is the OB on the island and I do believe he has a birthing room, if not 2.

Most countries, including the US, have quotas that determine how many people with what basic job skills will be permitted work permits every year. Why do Americans think that they should recieve special treatment when your own country uses the same basic rules to govern their own immigation policy. Belize is a sovereign nation and has a right to dictate their own rules. If you don't like it....stay home!

Let's look at this "protectionism" from another angle.

Let's say I make mud pies and I want to start a mud pie company in Belize. If I'm allowed to start my mud pie company then I will need employees. Who will I employ? I will need a mud pie factory. Who will build it? I will need mud pie transporters? Who will deliver my pies? I will pay taxes. Who will I pay my taxes to?

Answer to all of the above.....the Belizean people!

How can this not benefit both me the mud pie maker and the Belzean economy in general?

Some may say, "but no one will buy your mud pies". Again, how can this adversely affect the county of Belize? If I fail then I alone bare the finacial hardship of my failure not the Belizean government.

KB you live in Canada who are you to tell anyone to "stay home"?
And what's your problem with America? You guys rely on the US to protect you from invasion.

UT OH !

I don't like it when America does it either. So I can't stay home... I can't go to Belize... who will take me????

I do not know of one country on earth that operates on a pure free market economy. We sure don't in the US. And if that is one of your criteria on where to live, Belize should be near the bottom of your list.

America isn't a free market environment?

Please enlighten me.

Tarrifs, import and export duties and quotas, subsidies for certain sectors of the economy, tax incentives and disincentives just to name a few. Not familiar with your profession, but aren't there quotas for entrance to medical schools?

My definition of a free market is where the market dictates not the government.

And also let me enlighten you some as well.

In my relatively short career (10 years in private practice) I have worked with or interacted with other doctors from Canada, Brazil, Itally, Germany, Jamacia, India, Pakistan, Yugoslovia and Columbia. And those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. All those doctors were granted a U.S. license to practice medicine. All those named above even went to medical school in their country of origin. Some of those named above even completed their residency training on their country of origin.

NONE were denied a license in order to protect the U.S. doctors already here.

Are you telling us the US has no restriction on anyone coming from any country?

Not sure if 40 yrs. in practice actually entitles me to "enlighten" anyone, but I believe most doctors from foreign medical schools and residency program must pass U.S. boards to practice in the U.S.
Belize also requires physicians to serve as government employed physicians for a required number of years.

Come on Warren. You know I don't mean that.

All doctors must pass U.S. boards to get a U.S. license.

But you already knew that.

Very interesting thread....I practiced medicine for 35 years...US born, trained and US Citicizen. 15 years ago I was able to get approval from the Belize Govt. to practice in Belize, as long as I do not charge for services....hey they let me in, I still practice when I want, and can do good in the country of Belize.....its their country....so if they want to limit foreign physicians it is there right....

The facts are that all countries have limits on who comes and works. Belize is no different. You might not agree with Belize policy, but it is their policy. And if you expect to move here, you better accept right from the start that you are not going to change that. After you read "Don't Stop The Carnival" get use to saying the serenity prayer. You will be saying it over and over again while in Belize.

Are you building a hospital or clinic? How many people would you employ? How many other jobs would be created because of you coming down here and working?
Because your mud pie example states that you would be building and employee creating several jobs...

It is well established that a physician can donate their services. This topic is about allowing fee for service in order to allow young or young at heart doctors to live there full time and collect some money for their service.

I look forward to the day I can do as you, come and go as I want and practice for free but that day is a long way away for me.

I would rather be able to move there soon and collect a lot less money than to move there much later in life and be retired only.

I understand your comments "young apprentice", The average Belizean physician nets less than $50,000 US in private practice if he or she is extremely resourceful, owns a pharmacy and lab services, and has other sources of revenue generation. Now the folks at the Private Clinics can "skim off" more money, as witnessed with the recent Universal Health scam.....but lets assume, depending on you specialty you pull down 135,000-$750,000 US per year currently.....are you willing to practice for $30,000 US, working 80-100 hour work weeks. My Belizean collegues work that many hours.....just thoughts to ponder.

"Are you building a hospital or clinic? How many people would you employ? How many other jobs would be created because of you coming down here and working?
Because your mud pie example states that you would be building and employee creating several jobs"

A clinic. I currently employ 6 full time employees, 2 partime employees, a clean-up person each evening and a grounds keeper each week.

The hospital employs 5 R.N.s for OB and 4 nursery aids all only for the OB service. Surgery employs 6 full time R.N.s and several aids, house keeping ect. which work for OB services as well as surgery services.

I purchase thousands of dollars worth of clinic supplies each month from various companies (much more so than I like).

A single busy doctor has a significant positive impact on the local economy.

You can argue all you want using US analogies. Plan fact - it does not apply to Belize.

"are you willing to practice for $30,000 US, working 80-100 hour work weeks"

As stated earlier, in six years I will hopefully be in a position to work full time in Belize provided I can make enough money to pay my routine bills.

I work that much now, the work load will not be an issue for me. I don't do much else. I just think I'll be much happier when I can go home at the end of the day and sit on my dock, eat fresh sea food, and listen to music at Fido's.

The model in Belize is somewhat different and the costs of running a practice are much higher. For example, the typical private practice physician in Belize (Belize City doesn't count) does not have a nurse, no receptionist, no nuses aids and no janitorial service...the physician does all of these things. Usually their office has no more than 1-2 exam rooms/which double as their office. So trust me from experience, you will not generate the economic impact on the Belize economy like you do in the US. You practice medicine for the "love of medicine" and to serve the patients who need your services....grant it you can make more money than a construction worker but you never have the economic power just practicing medicine the way you do in the states (unless you work a SCAM)

"You can argue all you want using US analogies. Plan fact - it does not apply to Belize"

Since I'm from the US what other analogies could I use.

I KNOW it will NOT be the same there! Geeeeeeeeeeeze

I've been there a bunch warren. I've researched it to death. I've bought property there. It took nearly one year to get my seawall/pier approval. The seawall construction took a long time. The pier construction is yet to start.

Point is I know island life is not US life. Why do you think I want to come there full time?

Like I said, good luck.

PS, got to go see a doctor now - damnit

Hang on to your dreams young man.....we all have them....the best way achieve your dreams is find another revenue generating profession and move to Belize......open a restaurant, be like a lot of the gringos get into the land business.....if you want the dream bad enough....what are you willing to give up to achieve it?

Good luck and best wishes!

I think the policy of not allowing foreign doctors practice in Belize is a poor one. Doctors aren't going to flood into the country and raise the medical costs, unless they get into a deal like the Universal scam, but that is an entire other thread for another day.
I am basing my opinion as a firefighter/EMT here in the states, that visits the island very often and has implimented a very good emergency response plan for my yearly skydive event.
I work very closely with Dr. Daniel at Ambergris Hope Medical Clinic. I donate supplies to them each year that I haul down on the jump plane. They struggle to keep up with the work. The island is bursting with children. One more pediatrician/OB/GYN doc on the island would be a good thing.
Island Ferry under Sterling and Cullen's direction have implimented an emergency response team. A good start, and I have donated to their cause also and will help out in any way possible.
During the skydive event we have our own doctors, nurses and paramedics with us. We have helped treat 3 heart attacks by other tourists in 4 years. The emergency medicine on the island needs to be brought up to a much higher standard. You can't just rely on the BATSUB helicopter or a local flight to save you. I have spoken with the Mayoress, The Minister of Tourism and the local response team about improving emergency medicine on the island. I would not want to be up at Belize Legacy Resort and have a serious medical issue.
RB(Lovey and Thurston), Algae, I respect your opinions, but I think it is time to let a hard working doctor from the US come down and help out. No one cares when Mark Johnson's dental group comes down for a week of dental care. And relaxing the rules a bit would only improve the quality of island living for EVERYONE.

(rant over, I'm still upset the Pens lost to the Wings last night)

BELIZE-N-US ....REAPER is right...keep making plans. You know you have to jump through hoops to make it happen and you know..like many others ..that when you are ready to move to AC you are going to be in demand and help out a lot of people!

Dear Reaper,

You bring some very good points,

You are right we do need a better emergency response unit and relying on BATSUB is not a long term solution. What we need is a hospital or a larger clinic with proper equiment to handle more of these emergencies.

At this moment in San Pedro there are over 12 doctors practicing on the island (most are actually not Belizean)

Marks group does a great clinic that provides a service for those who can not afford the dental care...they bring down a large amount of people to work and process a lot of patients. I am sure Mark does not charge for this service.

Reaper,

well said and I couldn't agree more. If anything they are going to go to Belize to implement something positive and well needed and likely raise prices of medical care! A doctor moving
to Belize is most likely not looking to move there to take business away from others and make millions. Doctors in Belize also always seemed overworked and busy.

Great point about the dental clinic Reaper. Well said.

purdygirl, my point about the dental care is it's OK for free, but don't charge a few dollars if you are from the US and based on the island full time as a dentist. Belize will take all of the free care but won't admit they need MUCH more medical service nationwide.

Many good thoughts on this thread. (This is lovey, not thurston this time!). Yes, Mark does some wonderful work here, but note is is here for a week. Many doctors and groups have been generous in donating supplies to the clinic and doctors on the island. I know all these groups are very grateful for the help. I think (sticking my neck out here!) one of the things all groups and physicians must be very mindful of: Show respect for the system and physicians and other medical personal in a third world country. We are not the last word in care and training, Cuba is a good example. In the 30 yrs. we have been in San Pedro, we have seen many improvements to health care and the addition of some very fine doctors. The community has worked hard to build the Polyclinic and of course we would all like to see more services provided. It will come , if everyone works together to achieve it.

Hi Lovey! You should put Thurston back to work getting the island medical system worked out! Don't tell him it's my idea though!

Let's just make Thurston a write-in candidate for President.

Not a good idea, Leah Ann. I would have to pressure him to put me on the ticket and that would be a real disaster!!!

I like how you said that! Being an old duffer myself I can associagte with your verbage. I just bought some land in Belize and will be making the move myself in July to a new property and building a new home where I intend to commence a completely new business and way of life.

I can think of many far worse things, lovey!
xoxo


~LA

you started on a slippery slope to begin with... i suggest to you that comments like this are not going to help your cause.

perhaps you should re-read what Bywarren wrote.