Apparently Black Hole is a racist term.

http://blogs.chron.com/sciguy/archives/2008/07/is_black_hole_a.html

I know as a white guy I've always been offended by the billboards advertising Cracker Barrels...

Yea, ds, and I was always insulted by "White Men Can't Jump"! and in no way am I a racist!

Political correctness runs amok.

amok, amok, amok.

Can one be so politically correct that he/she becomes realistically incorrect or just fake? Did that make sense?

NOPE.

NOT only in the US. In apartheid South Africa the famous children's book "Black Beauty" was banned. And in England the historic character that featured for decades on certain pots of jam, a "golliwog", was also banned. And the term "nigger" was originally not remotely racist, but acquired that connotation to the exclusion of its original meaning.

Yet the reality of racism continues unabated in many places. One wonderful reason for living in Belize.

Perhaps we have our priorities wrong?

Perhaps if EVERYONE had a little thicker skin, regardless of it's color...even outside the US.

I'm praying that every living human on this planet will be colour blind some day ...

I don't even like politicians for the most part...
why would I want to be politically correct???

Truly, I do agree that people need to relax a bit and allow for truthful, thoughtful, heartfelt, free speech. Atleast that way we will know who the truly racist or violent people are because they will be "out of the closet". OOPS was that politically incorrect? I meant to say out in the open because they can say what they mean without thinking about the politically correct filter we all apply.

Oh, phuleese! Political correctness runs amuck all over the world; everything from whether the French should drink Chilean wine to the London judge who sentenced some guy from Northern Ireland to 10 weeks in jail for calling a Welsh woman English. (apparantly that's some kind of racial slur?)

Dutch, I agree; people seem to look for ways to take offense. When did it become so popular to be a victim?

That isn't political correctness...it's obsession with skin colour...a strongly US condition.

In the US, one of the all time classic Disney movies, "Song of the South" has never been released on DVD or VHS. Not sure if the history of the U.S. portrayed in the movie is not Politically correct. Or maybe they don't like Uncle Remus. The best part is "Splash Mountain" at the theme parks are based on the movie.

Like a box of Crayolas melting in the Caribbean sun who can throw a stone at whom?

Will Belize have to rename the "BLUE HOLE"?

I loved the movie Bulworth where he said "Just let them f*^$ 'til they are all one color"
I love the rainbow parade of people cruising down front street.
In the USA it is very boring looking out over any crowd.

Jesse, again, stop knocking the US. It gets very old very fast. It's not perfect, but we tend to get defensive when people who aren't from here bad mouth her. People everywhere find some reason to divide up into us and them. Leah-Ann captured the post he deleted...HA!

Harriette, once again, I can't figure out how you and I have such different takes on the state of California! I absolutely love the cultural diversity of my state. I love that I can find restaurants serving dishes from every corner of the globe, that conversations can be heard in any combination of languages, that there is a colorful variety of ethnic clothing styles, that there are routinly celebrations of holidays not a part of America's culture. I have yet to be part of a "boring" crowd in the US, except maybe once in Nebraska...

I worked in Brazil for a year, and the mix of Europeans, Native peoples and asians made the most beautiful women I've ever seen.

The english and welsh have different skin colors? Or was that the London judge? political correctness encompases much more than skin color and is an issue all over the world.

And as much as I love Belize, I beg to differ with respect to the perfect picture painted here. There is most certainly a differentiation among Belizeans based solely on skin color. One need look no further than the naming of the group which resulted from the intermarriage of African and Caribeans. The products of these unions came to be known as the Garifuna, often called "Black Caribs" to distinguish them from the those referred to as "Red" or "Yellow Caribs" all based on skin color.

This is a great read:
http://scholarworks.umass.edu/dissertations/AAI8805951/

Leah-Ann! Nicely said, and with a site to back you up!

Maybe progress will have been made when a thread like this one doesn't generate any interest?

Perfect Leah-Ann. Thank you.

Some silly comments as usual!
Boring??? Have you ever visited NYC?? Philly? How about the ever changing small towns in between?
You wouldn't know diversity if it bit you on the ass.
Rhonda

gosh - I hate to contradict this one - but I go to Disney World every year and the people in the crowd are every colour, creed, nationality, religion, size, and handicap - brought together by the love of the absolute American genius of Walt Disney and his gang.

Viva Disney World!

It's clean, fairly safe, fun and people embrace one another and rejoice in common theme.

Thanks Amanda. I suppose you were a little more cordial than I.

[quote=Leah-Annthe London judge who sentenced some guy from Northern Ireland to 10 weeks in jail for calling a Welsh woman English. (apparantly that's some kind of racial slur?)

[/quote]

I am of Welsh descent and indeed it is offensive to call a Welsh woman English.

It is similar to a Southener being called a Yankee.

It isn't the worst crime in the world, but its like being called French when you are actually English.

Being called an orange when you are an apple.

Anyway, you guys get my drift.

Oh, and although Jesse is from Hawaii, isn't that techincally part of the USA?

Oops, should I duck!!

Amanda, DUCK!

Harriette? Have you been diving a lot lately? A little nitrogen narcosis developing? Sounds like too many bubbles!

A perfect match discovered: Jesse/ John Wiley Price !

Many Englishmen would consider that statement an Oxymoron!

The issue of Racism is always guaranteed to bring out idea loges on all sides of the issue, and “facts and figures” are available to “prove” almost any point of view.

To NOT be able to comment on behavior or actions for fear of aspersions being made against me, due to the creed or color of the subjects is Racism at its worst.

While it is somehow perfectly acceptable to point out deficiencies in the actions of those of my own race whose parenting skills are almost non existent and who drink and smoke their way through welfare allowances, were I to make a similar comment about anyone of another race, the PC Haters would be standing in line to throw the first stone!

I can be a fervent supporter of Bobby Jindal, one of the few politicians in either party who actually makes any sense, but if I decry Obama, the first assumption seems to be that its based on skin color, not on ideology?

Until such time as anyone of us can praise or criticize our fellow human beings, regardless of race,gender or sexual preference, based on their actions alone, we are all living with racism.

For Example,I had no idea of Jesse's heritage until earlier in this thread. I lived in Hawaii for a year and found the cultural diversity wonderful; My disagreements with him are based on his ideology.

When someone demanding a wallet while calling the victim a Honkey MF is not prosecuted under the same Hate Crimes Statutes as a felon violating the Civil Rights of a Gay Man or a Racial Minority, we have racism.

How we each choose to deal with it and move towards a less confrontational society is not something that can be legislated.........just don't call me French

Pug, as usual you have a way of putting things in prespective. Damn, I wish I could express myself like you do!

Heineken and Ganja may help

Almost like Deja vu all over again.
They are, e.g.: Ca Penal Code section 422.55.

At least, on this count, the San Pedro Anti-Social Club should get high praise...we hate everybody!!! Aggressively: Bill Thornton, Prez for Life, SPA-SC

Pug, You have a way with words! I'd like to buy you a beer when I come down in August. As for the other, you are on your own. Nicely stated, even earned a beer!

Overall, I'll just restate that thicker skin would help solve this, regardless of the color of that skin.

My daughter, at 5 years of age, was cornered in the school yard by another little girl and a little boy. The little girl said to my daughter, "You're black and you're bad!" To which my daughter responded, "Actually, I'm peach and brown and I'm beautiful."

It's all in the messages we send our children....racism and intolerance will die when we, as parents, stop teaching it.

First I've heard of it and I'm 3/4 Welsh. My father only spoke Welsh as a youngster and had to learn English as a second language. IMO the Welsh don't like being called English, but not because it's insulting - just because it's incorrect and they want people to know their true origins. No, the insult comes in when you knowingly call a New Zealander Australian, or a Canadian American.

All quite absurd when you look at how peoples have moved around the world. We are all mongrels and multi-racial.

As I stated in my first post on this subject, (with a premonition of this discussion looming ) The issue of Racism is always guaranteed to bring out idea loges on all sides of the issue, and “facts and figures” are available to “prove” almost any point of view.

CA 422.55 is primarily a bill that deals with racial, gender and sexual orientation equality in schools: perhaps with all the resources available to her, Leah Ann will be able to offer examples of actual cases where the most liberal courts in the land have consistently applied Hate Crimes sentencing guidelines in black on white hold ups?

While a part of my point, this was not an area I was intent on getting side tracked on: most discussions these days seem get broken down into finite arguments (like a trial?)and the general feel of the post as a whole gets lost.

Is it more important in the big picture to discuss issues, or merely to "score points" by poking holes in someones arguement, while ignoring the crux of their point?

The old major problem with humankind. Us/them, black/white, rich/poor, our team/your team. our country/your country. Reasons to divide so someone can feel in some way superior. Unfortunately, the main problem is the different people and groups that keep this B.S. alive for their own benefits. If it wasn't milked, it would have disappeared long ago. Just my opinion of course (my opinion/your opinion) Why is it always so much easier for some folks (I would guess a small, loud minority) to find something to offend them (and sometimes, offend them on someone elses behalf) than to find something to celebrate? I have come to the conclusion that some people just suck anyway, regardless of differences

Now this is funny!
Pug - you bring more to this board than the previously mentioned, quoted oink person, ever has!
Some people do not have any idea how to get off their soapbox.
Life is about all of us, not singularity.
Personally, I don't give two hoots what anyone thinks of me, and I am as blind to the penal codes as most of the people reading these posts. Good God, its all about conversations not the damned legal, I know it all, system.

Love each other as we are or just step aside and let them through

There is a fellow that frequents the island regularly whose retort to anybody that would disagree with him was "you don't like me because I am black!" And the response time and time again was always "it's not because you are black, it's because you are an a** hole!"

Race has a function and place in the world, but with Humans new global status its function is obsolete. We now suffer from the residuals.
I couldn't figure out how to put two pages of my new book up so I placed it here , its actually old but improved Bubba Philosophy.
http://bubbasbirdblog.blogspot.com/

But, but, what about us poor white guys, who for some reason don't fall into our own "protected" categories? We're pretty much screwed. Can't play a race card, a gender card, a heterosexual card. We have to settle for being an **shole on our own merits.

Seriously tho Amanda, hit the nail on the head. Lots of folks would rather whip out one of their trump cards to avoid being required to stand on their own merits. If you have a need to classify yourself as anything other than just a human being, be prepared for the flak.

Wasn't there something posted awhile back on "white noise"? he he he.

I appreciate the words of support I've received from some of you, however if we are ever to achieve reasoned discussion, slurs and attacks based on the character of a verbal opponent must stop, and only remarks about their specific views or ideas should be made: believe me, there will still be plenty of room for comment

everyone has a soapbox...

Elbert - How did Bubba get so wise? I just lover your stories and encourage everyone to read them. Heck, I even bought the book!

Nova, you are absolutely right. Sometimes it looks like people have no clue about the impact their attitudes, conversations and treatment of others affects the kids who watch them.

"White mon pay di bills,
Chiney mon cook di food,
Spanish mon build di house,
and Black mon lay di pipe".

Supa G

It appears there is consensus here (a rarity) that there is a pre-occupation with differences in society at-large (albeit better in Belize than the U.S.).

So, as much as I may regret this -- here's the question.

Given the pre-occupation with race and the desire not to offend, would Obama be the Democratic nominee with his qualifications were he not Black?

where's the fun in that?

Otter, that's a very fair question, I don't know the answer but the responses should be fun.

I'm going to withdraw, it could get way sticky.

ahhhh elbert, where's the fun in that? I was hoping you would help spur-on a very valid debate on the issue.

No doubt I understand your decision though ---

Thinking about that one! Dangerous waters: no matter the debate and opinions it can be taken negatively and will be by some. IMHO.

Otter, the one bite got away? Give 'em time.
(Elbert, get back here!!!)

related questions: why is skin color so often selected as a basis for discrimination? are other physical characteristics used in this way?

No

Pug, you are waiting patiently for a response, aren’t you?

For purposes of this board, I have developed a temporary condition called "Electile Dysfunction" - the inability to become aroused over any of the choices for President of the U.S. put forth by either party in the 2008 election year.

Because it is the first and most instantly obvious defining characteristic.

Others would be obesity,learning or speech impediments,dress, accents, too much or too little hair, height, odor and of course lets not forget profession (dress codes would qualify as physical characteristics?) or almost any part of a Monty Python or Larry the Cable Guy sketch.

What do Politically Correct folks laugh at, just out of curiosity? Isn't there inherently a victim an any humor?

Otter, he's not black....he's peach and brown!

He's what ever is politically expedient at the time

uhhh.... that's what he said?


see isn't juvenile humor so much better than racial humor?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGQ-ISsDm8M

and that's all I got to say!

almost,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xEzGIuY7kw&feature=related

Rykat, youtube is "tubing you". I get "Leah" every time and "white women" finally loaded, but the others "No Mas"!

Hey, Otter. Geraldine Ferraro answered your question!
"If Obama was a white man, he would not be in this position. And if he was a woman of any color, he would not be in this position. He happens to be very lucky to be who he is. And the country is caught up in the concept."

Leah-Ann, posting at 3:48 a.m. - Couldn't sleep, or just up early? Dang girl!

I received this in my email from an elderly friend. Not that I agree with everything said, but it does make a good argument. Just thought it fit in with this forum...take from it what you will.

YES, I'M A BAD AMERICAN

I Am the Liberal-Progressives Worst Nightmare. I am an American.

I believe the money I make belongs to me and my family, not some Liberal governmental functionary be it Democratic or Republican!

I'm in touch with my feelings and I like it that way!

I think owning a gun doesn't make you a killer, it makes you a smart American.

I think being a minority does not make you noble or victimized, and does not entitle you to anything.

I believe that if you are selling me a Big Mac, do it in English.

I believe everyone has a right to pray to his or her God when and where they want to.

My heroes are John Wayne, Babe Ruth, Roy Rogers, and whoever canceled Jerry Springer.

I know wrestling is fake and I don't waste my time watching or arguing about it.

I've never owned a slave, or was a slave, I haven't burned any witches or been persecuted by the Turks and neither have you! So, shut up already.

I believe if you don't like the way things are here, go back to where you came from and change your own country!

This is AMERICA .

If you were born here and don't like it you are free to move to any Socialist country that will have you.

I want to know which church is it exactly where the Reverend Jesse Jackson preaches, where he gets his money, and why he is always part of the problem and not the solution. Can I get an AMEN on that one?

I think the cops have every right to shoot your sorry rear if you're running from them..

I also think they have the right to pull you over if you're breaking the law, regardless of what color you are.

And, no, I don't mind having my face shown on my drivers license. I think it's good..... And I'm proud that 'God' is written on my money.

I think if you are too stupid to know how a ballot works, I don't want you deciding who should be running the most powerful nation in the world for the next four years.

I dislike those people standing in the intersections trying to sell me stuff or trying to guilt me into making 'donations' to their cause.

I believe that it doesn't take a village to raise a child, it takes two parents.

I believe 'illegal' is illegal no matter what the lawyers think.

I believe the American flag should be the only one allowed in AMERICA !

If this makes me a BAD American, then yes, I'm a BAD American.

If you are a BAD American too, please forward this to everyone you know.

We want our country back! We NEED GOD BACK IN OUR COUNTRY!

Card carrying BAD AMERICAN!
Let the nit-picking commence!
(cant I fly my pirate flag once in a while?)

No Obama would not be the nominee if he were not black,just like GWB would not be of any importance if he were not the son of GHWB.Life isn't fair just the way it is.

Here are a few more...
I believe that what I do with my body is my business.
I believe the greatest responsibility we have with our tax dollars is to provide a public school education that prepares young people with the adequate tools to succeed in life i.e. the fact that we as a country remained silent while our children were taught abstinence only sex ed will be later recalled as our greatest failing ( a close tie with No Child Left Behind)
I believe that some day, America will live up to its promise and truly be a color-blind society. We are not there yet.
I think it is a great disappointment to me that my childhood fascination with John Wayne is diminished by his well documented racism. I will give him a pass though as a) it was a different time and this position was not unique to him and b) Rooster Cogburn was an awesome movie.
I believe that those who make the most money should pay the highest tax rate. ( Warren Buffet is with me on this one)
I believe that my relationship with God is, much like my body, my business.
I believe that it does not take a village to raise a child but it sure as hell helps ( note-there is nowhere I have ever lived where my son was more influenced by other adults than in San Pedro)
There are more but here is what I believe in more than all of these-my opinion is exactly that- MY opinion. It is no better or worse than anyone else's and that, my friend, is the most awesome part of being American.

I believe I am a cut-and-paste job from the above two . . much like the USA is a cut-and-paste job when you think about it. No-one ever said the fabric of society couldn't be a quilt.

Excellent point.
BTW, it was only based upon your presence and moniker on this board that I failed to include my other one....
I believe in the superiority of the Mizzou Tigers ! ( jayhawk fans hate that one):)

I have found that everyone has at least one serious character flaw. You have revealed yours. Mine is that, for the last 23 years, I have drawn a paycheck from the University of Missouri (at the KC campus). I can live with this. Especially in retirement. In San Pedro.

Ha!!! Now that is the funniest thing I have read on here in a while.
Knowing the bureaucracy of the University system, that explains your position quite well. Best of luck to you spending those tuition dollars well in San Pedro someday.

I'm a few years from retirement, but less than three months from another 2 weeks in SP. We have it scheduled so we can get back in plenty of time to see my Hawks pummel Mizzou at Arrowhead!! (I never know when to quit!!)

B&G, very, very well said.

I will add:
I've never owned a slave or been a slave, I haven't burned any witches or been persecuted by the Turks and neither have you. But sadly, all of those things are part of our history and we do well to remember them less they be repeated.
I believe if you don't like the way things are here, it is your responsibility to work to effect change before you start complaining about the failure of others to do so.
I am thankful that the symbolism of the American flag is strong enough to stand proudly next to that of flags from a wide variety of other countries which are just as strong in their own right.
This IS America. I believe "love it" and "leave it" are not the only choices. It is not perfect but it is my home and I will do my very best to make it the most welcoming home possible.
I believe God never left our country. He's willing to have a conversation with anyone who's interested, but He does not force His will on anyone. And He doesn't like America best.
I believe the most awesome thing about being American is recognizing that there are no "true Americans" as we all came from somewhere else and it is the combination of so many rich heritages that makes this country the unique blessing it is.

Linking these 2 thoughts....

Section 8 of the "Flag Laws" states in part

No person shall display the flag of the United Nations or any other national or international flag equal, above, or in a position of superior prominence or honor to, or in place of, the flag of the United States at any place within the United States or any Territory or possession thereof;

and yet this?

ALBUQUERQUE (KRQE) - An Albuquerque jury today convicted a University of New Mexico student who hauled down and ripped apart a Mexican flag flying over the campus last year.

Peter Lynch, 30, had claimed he acted out of patriotism, not racism, but jurors agreed with the prosecution that he committed criminal damage to property, a misdemeanor.

The jury heard testimony on Monday and closing arguments this morning. The verdict was returned shortly after noon.

El Centro de la Raza, a student group that claimed ownership of owned the flag, called it an act of racism. Shortly after the incident Lynch told KRQE News 13 he wanted to replace the flag for them.

However Lynch, who did not testify during the trial, has said it was inappropriate for a foreign flag to be flying alone on U. S. soil. The Mexican flag had been raised with administration permission for a campus event, and it later came out the U. S. flag was missing because of a communication breakdown involving UNM ROTC cadets.

Lynch said he alerted UNM officials that the Mexican flag was alone, but no one did anything.

Today in court his attorney said he was protecting an American symbol.

"I respectfully submit to you if the constitution on the First Amendment permits burning an American flag belonging to another, Peter Lynch's actions protecting the symbol of the United States is protected activity," defense attorney John D'Amato said in his closing argument.

But prosecutors said Lynch took it too far.

"There is no reasonable doubt in this case," assistant district attorney Greer Rose told jurors. "We have two different admissions by the defendant that he ripped this flag in half and testimony he didn't have permission to do that."

Lynch is not happy with the decision plans to appeal.

"We were fairly disappointed with the verdict, and we'll see where it goes from here," D'Amato said as he left the courtroom.

Immediately after the verdict Metro Court Judge Clyde DeMersseman sentence Lynch to a six-month deferred sentence plus anger management, 48 hours of community service and supervised probation. He also must replace the flag for El Centro de la Raza.

News 13 contacted Centro de la Raza for their opinion on the verdict and sentencing, but a representative did not want to comment.

Also today KRQE.com Web Question asked for opinions on Lynch destroying the Mexican flag. By late afternoon the responses were:

* 76 percent saying it Lynch was right
* 24 percent saying he was wrong

To Recap: this was a Mexican flag, flying alone at a State University, from Friday through until Monday morning, and was pulled down after requests to have it removed were ignored?

Well we certainly wouldn't want to hurt anyone's "feelings" would we? even an organization that has declared it wishes to remove border states from the USA? Would an Al Qaeda flag be allowed at UNM?

How would the citizens of Belize feel about a flag of Guatemala being flow alone on Government property?

Apparently, its only OK to destroy an American Flag?

And will any reply address this issue, or become a discussion of La Razas good deeds?

Inappropriate seems to replace illegal these days (by certain folk, but only for their own ends). Count me in the 76%. Unfortunately, no one cares if WE are offended. Political correctness is defined as being extremely careful not to offend people who don't particularly care if they offend you.

"To Recap: this was a Mexican flag, flying alone at a State University, from Friday through until Monday morning, and was pulled down after requests to have it removed were ignored?"

Lynch was not on trial for " Pulling" down the Mexican flag!
he was on trail for destroying personal property!

" Jurors agreed with the prosecution that he committed criminal damage to property, a misdemeanor."

Lynch was correct when he stated "it was inappropriate for a foreign flag to be flying alone on U. S. soil."

But removing the flag is as far as he should have gone. Destruction was the criminal act.


"We have two different admissions by the defendant that he ripped this flag in half and testimony he didn't have permission to do that."

He is guilty!!

..or maybe he just acted inappropriately

I agree with you that remmoval of the flag was justified and actually would have been covered by Section 8 of the " Flag Law"

Destuction of property that does not belong to you is a crime regardless!

Hell, if I was there I would have helped him take it down. Tearing it in half is another matter

In a radio interview, he suggested that after 4 days of being displayed where it had no right to be, the flag had been abandoned, and as such he claimed and destroyed it.

When it was revealed to him, by the ROTC at the university, who should have known better, that it belonged to La Raza. he went to their offices and offered to purchase a new flag for them. They declined, and decided to press charges, seemingly more interested in "justice" than getting a new flag?

Pug, Pug, Pug!
Are you really serious? haveing been displayed for 4 days ( regardless of where) does not constitute abandonment. It was on a university Flag pole for God sake!

Me thinks , once he was approached and informed that he just committed a crime he though , OH Crap!! and tried to get his self out of trouble by offering a new flag.The motives of LA RAZA not withstanding , he was guilty of property destruction!

Whoooeee, he is in deep doodoo. That flag must be worth at least $10. Felony or misdemeanor? How about La Raza for "inappropriately" (illegally ?) displaying their flag? Was the flag on their property? I doubt it. Any consequences for them? Regardless, if the university allowed it to continue, and are accepting federal funds, they should also be held accountable. If I remember correctly, La Raza also gets a federal handout. This should allow a few lawyers to retire comfortably.

Peter Ryan Lynch Responds

My fellow Americans,

My name is Peter Ryan Lynch; I am a student at UNM. I am a decorated 8-year veteran of the US military, honorably discharge this July. I am appalled a foreign banner flew unaccompanied on UNM campus flagpole for three days, including a US holiday. I am an American passionate about our country and I would feel the same way if it were ANY foreign banner.

The Mexican flag was flying over UNM campus unaccompanied by an American flag on U.S. Constitution Day 17 September 2007.

According to United States Code (Federal Law):
"The flag should be displayed on all days especially on… Constitution Day, September 17…."

"The flag should be displayed daily on or near the main administration building of every public institution."

"The flag should be displayed during school days in or near every schoolhouse."

Throughout history, flying a nation’s banner is a claim of ownership. To do this on U.S. Constitution Day is an insult to all Americans. I am outraged that UNM administration allowed this happen. I thought before my class was over they would address the issue. I left class, and the foreign banner was still unaccompanied. I went to the dean’s office, pleading for action. I also notified Army ROTC, who has the honor of raising and lowering the US flag on UNM campus this month. I waited one and one half-hours after these notifications to take action myself. I made a profound statement and tore down this foreign banner. My actions although overzealous, are warranted.

Americans have one of the most diverse cultures on the planet, we embrace our differences, and unless you are a foreign visitor or illegal immigrant then your nationality is American! We are all equals under the Constitution and Stars and Stripes that protect us. Americans should fly their historical nations’ banners with pride. UNM is a public institution, governed by the laws of our nation, and on 17 September 2007, Federal law was broken; American’s are insulted. I am livid, with all the press coverage, only Julian "Top" Martinez said anything in my defense. Furthermore, the press has a responsibility to gather all the facts before printing.

I would like to assure El Centro de la Raza that hate or racism did not motivate my actions. I ask UNM administration specifically, David Schmidly (University President), Rita Martinez-Purson (Interim Vice President for Academic Diversity), and Cheo Torres (Vice President for Academic Affairs), to apologize to all the American Students, including Mexican-American students, for allowing a foreign banner to fly over UNM for three days in violation of Federal laws.

Sincerely,
Peter Ryan Lynch

Mr Lynch states that he was not making a racist gesture, rather a patriotic one: the decision to press charges came from La Raza, who's motto "For La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada." is chilling to everyone who values equal rights for all.

It says: "For The Race everything. Outside The Race, nothing."

And yes Bobber, they received $15.2 million in federal grants in 2005, with many more since.


*I counted Friday afternoon through Monday morning as 4 days in a previous post

Excellent points here Leah-Ann!

Peter Lynch does not deserve a conviction but rather a medal.

Bobber, my comments are all to the destruction of the flag. Not the illegal act of its display. I definatley agree with the fact that it should have been removed, and more in agreement that it should never been displayed as it was on the campus flag pole.

BiIl, I agree with you, and understand. My questions would relate to the relative worth, monetarily, of the flag, which I assume would not qualify this "crime" as a felony. Also, since ownership of the flag was taken, would there be any liability for the owner of the flag for flying it illegally. Obviously, if a federal law was broken, there should be some accountability. In my mind, "law" would indicate some type of punishment would accompany breaking it. I don't buy into the "inappropriate".

Assuming the relative low value of the flag (hey, flags aren't all that expensive, and Mexican flags probably less so in the US) obviously someone pi**ed someone off, and the lawsuit is the only way to vent the anger. How about our anger? If WE (the sensitive caring patriotic folk)are held acountable, how about THEM (who we would assume are also sensitive caring, but patriots of some other country).

Isn't this just so amusing. I find it amusing, because I realize being pi**ed off at idiots is fruitless. Looks like we might have a new write-in candidate.

He has already received a medal: for his service under the US Flag in our military.

His service enabled him to obtain partial funding for study at UNM.

He has since transfered.

Was gonna post my opinion but....you can guess where the radical right stands on this one!:-)

Bobber, you are correct on the value of the flag. My department buys 4'X5' US 50 star flags for $15 each (these are real stitched flags, not banners). Excessive penalty by the judge for property valued under $50 (usual misdemeanor level) and probably $10. He deserves another medal and I hope it thrown out on appeal, or at most he has to buy them a new flag.

Illegal is illegal, no matter what the lawyers, or anyone else, thinks. The confusion comes in defining illegal as it has multiple definitions: 1. Prohibited by law; 2. Prohibited by official rules: an illegal pass in football; 3. Unacceptable to or not performable by a computer: an illegal operation. Illegal is not the same as criminal. The commission of a crime is punnishable by imprisonment. Committing non-criminal illegal acts can be punnished by fine, loss of privilege, etc, but not by custody time.only if it is your property. The same criminal offense would apply had this act occured to an American flag belonging to someone else. did mine?can I use that argument next time you leave your car at the airport for more than 4 days? It is a criminal act to take even "abandoned" property that does not belong to you. I used to work in a bookstore that sold flags. It probably cost close to $150 if it was bigger than 5x8. misdemeanor offense, with misdemeanor punishment - stayed custody time, community service, restitution for the damaged property.Mr. Lynch was not prosecuted for making a racist gesture. He was prosecuted for the destruction of private property, which is considered vandalism. (You remember the Vandals, yes?) No private person or entity can make a decision to press charges. They can relay their wishes or desire to cooperate to a legal authority but only one in a legal position of authority, such as a district attorney or attorney general, can press charges. This is because in the United States crimes are deemed to have been committed against the People, i.e. criminal prosecution is carried out by the government in the name of all its citizens. Individuals can file civil actions to address wrongs done against them personally. That was not done in this case. me too

Now, for a bit of context:
The Mexican flag, flying in commemoration of Mexican Independence Day, was never supposed to be left up by itself. It had been raised by the Mexican Student Association on Sept. 14. When Army ROTC members went to retire the U.S. and state flags that evening, they left the Mexican flag because they thought students from the Mexican Student Association would return that same evening to take it down. That didn't happen. On the following Monday, Army ROTC students who were supposed to raise the U.S. and state flags forgot to do so. When asked why he didn't just take the flag down and hand it over instead of ripping it apart, Lynch admitted, "I may have gotten a little carried away."

And finally, accuracy is so very important. It was not La Raza which flew the Mexican flag. It was El Centro de la Raza, a Hispanic student-support organization, intended to promote diversity on a campus which had seen far too many racially-charged incidents in weeks just preceding this event. The "La Raza" motto cited by pugwash has been publically and officially denounced by "La Raza" more accurately known as the National Council of La Raza. http://www.nclr.org/

unfounded racial attacks can come from any side

Yer good!

See, just tweak the right subject and get someone else to do the legwork. Thank you, Leah-Ann, you just kept me from having to dig out the facts. Student organizations are not known for their tact (or reliability).

yeah, Bobber - perhaps the college should offer a course in that? I certainly could have used one - probably still could (the tact part, I'm very reliable)

now that just brings a tear to my eye

So to recap:

There Is technically a Federal law regarding flags, which was violated when the Mexican flag was flown alone on State property?

To fly a non US flag alone is a non criminal Illegal act?

6 months probation, anger management classes and community service are a sentence that is fair and reasonable considering the previous record, the mitigating circumstances and the character and background of Mr lynch?

Mr Lynch sought out El Centro de la Raza, offered to buy a new flag, but they filed a complaint, asking for prosecution under hate crimes guidelines and the DA in turn filed charges? is that the correct sequence ? (Albuquerque elected a new DA recently, by the way)

El Centro de La Raza, The University and UNM ROTC have no culpability in these wrongdoings?

The Mexican flag was flying on a US university campus to celebrate Mexican Independence day: I guess I'm not sure I've ever seen any US flags flown in Mexico at government or state facilities on July 4th.

As I speak only English, some French and a little Latin, I may have missed the subtle difference between La Raza and El Centro La Raza: there are links between each others web sites, and El Centro appears to have just got some sort of award from La Raza ? Is it like Fox and Fox News? or NBC and MSNBC? you know, the same but different?

If only they were called the Blue Aeroplanes!
www.ambergriscaye.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/287699/Re_Rosetta_Stone.html#Post287699

This is also an interesting link, if you would care for some background?
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=13863

When a presenter “spins” the facts they can be made to appear anything the presenter desires to present. “Law” is a term, like many in the English language, which is susceptible to a variety of definitions. The rule you cited could be called a “law” under the general definition “a rule of conduct established and enforced by the authority, legislation, or custom of a given community, state, or nation.” There are many laws which do not carry criminal sanctions. (Say like the laws of nature?) Again, what you cited is not a criminal law, it is a suggested rule of etiquette for flag handling. There are no criminal penalties attached, indeed, there are no penalties of any type attached. Just as there are no penalties attached for the horrible violation of fashion rules I observed in court this morning, nor for the discomfort endured by others when one talks with his/her mouth full, in blatant disregard of the customarily accepted laws of etiquette. These are really bad things, but they aren't crimes. (kinda sad, as it was a really unfortunate suit I observed this morning it needed punishing!)
Yes, as a criminal defense attorney, I have to say 6 months of informal probation, an anger management class and community service is entirely fair for someone who trespassed, took property which did not belong to him, destroyed it, and admitted that he got “carried away” in engaging in this conduct. This gentleman is certainly old enough and should be mature enough to handle a situation he does not like in a manner which does not destroy property that does not belong to him. Military service does not give one the license to destroy other people’s property, even if those other people have made you angry.
Mr. Lynch’s offer to make restitution was entirely appropriate. However it came after the crime had been reported. It couldn’t be “unreported.” Again, the organization DID NOT file the complaint. They complained about a crime. Big difference. The prosecutor filed the complaint, the formal charging document. The prosecutor chose to go forward with the case and the student organization could not have stopped that even if they wanted to. Can you point me to something which says the student organization requested that hate crimes be charged? Even if that is an accurate statement, those charges were not brought. The DA did not charge them, generally that means the DA did not think there was merit to the charges.
I have observed the US flag flying in a number of other countries. I have also observed the flags of other countries flown at US government buildings in appropriate circumstances. For example, when I lived in Fresno, it was not unusual for the Fresno City Hall to do so. Fresno has a large Mexican population. They come from a rich cultural heritage worthy of celebration. How does doing that in any way diminish American culture or heritage? What is it that is threatening about recognizing the good in others and celebrating their accomplishments along with them?
“La Raza” is not an official organization, group of organizations, or movement. It is a term, used in a variety of ways, both good and bad, much like the word “Aryan” which also has both good and bad connotations. Thank you for your link. I am very familiar with both the concepts conveyed by the term and with the ways in which the term has been abused. My familiarity comes from involvement in legal actions involving assorted Mexican-American groups, and from marrying into a Mexican family. (As an aside, MEChA, the group focused on in the link you provide, is a very disturbing organization – people often mistakenly refer to them as La Raza.) In any event, the student organization involved in the incident at hand was not a part of that organization.
Here are a couple of links which might provide a bit less biased information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Raza
http://www.nclr.org/content/viewpoints/detail/42500/
I suspect your inability to see the difference between La Raza and El Centro La Raza has less to do with your language abilities than it does with the fact that people generally see what they want to see. The second link above is particularly helpful in explaining some of your confusion. You approached this issue with a bias. At times, we all do that. But that bias often determines how we present an issue. Here, whether intentional or not, you omitted context and misstated facts, both of which would have provided a more accurate picture of who was involved and what actually happened.

Spin as you will!

From El Centro La Raza's website:

"Many people incorrectly translate our name, “La Raza,” as “the race.” While it is true that one meaning of “raza” in Spanish is indeed “race,” in Spanish, as in English and any other language, words can and do have multiple meanings. As noted in several online dictionaries, “La Raza” means “the people” or “the community.” Translating our name as “the race” is not only inaccurate, it is factually incorrect. “Hispanic” is an ethnicity, not a race. As anyone who has ever met a Dominican American, Mexican American, or Spanish American can attest, Hispanics can be and are members of any and all races.

The term “La Raza” has its origins in early 20th century Latin American literature and translates into English most closely as “the people” or, according to some scholars, as “the Hispanic people of the New World.” The term was coined by Mexican scholar José Vasconcelos to reflect the fact that the people of Latin America are a mixture of many of the world’s races, cultures, and religions. Mistranslating “La Raza” to mean “the race” implies that it is a term meant to exclude others. In fact, the full term coined by Vasconcelos, “La Raza Cósmica,” meaning the “cosmic people,” was developed to reflect not purity but the mixture inherent in the Hispanic people. This is an inclusive concept, meaning that Hispanics share with all other peoples of the world a common heritage and destiny."

Shame on La Raza and Mr. Lynch!

I may not be a "Bad American" but I am certainly an odd one...

1) I believe that America is the most successful experiment in classical liberalism and liberty the world has ever known -- I am proud to be an American!(and as such, I believe flag burning should be protected speech)

2) I believe in Jesus Christ as my Savior and am in awe of His power and of the Man who is the greatest advocate of individual rights the universe has known (and as such, I believe religion should stay out of our public institutions -- my God is powerful enough to not need sanctioning by the state -- is yours?)

3) I believe in free markets and that the ability of people to freely purchase goods and services and to offer their labor in exchange for pay will, over time, cure most societal ills (and as such, I believe that relaxing visa requirements and finding an orderly way to legalize all those allowed in by lax border enforcement is in America's best interest)

4) I believe the American way of life is worth protecting and that a strong and modern military helps decrease the odds that we'll ever need it -- and that we should spend even more perhaps (and thus, I feel we should pull-back from the majority of our deployments overseas to just a handful of strategic locations -- military spending should go to technology, equipment, recruiting, and training and not the operation of bases where we're not wanted. Oh, and we should not have gone into Iraq)

5) I believe in the beauty and profound wisdom of our founding fathers in protecting our freedoms such as gun ownership, religious affiliation, and the very real right to privacy found in our government documents. Federal judges should make decisions based on the constitutionality of laws - the literal intent of our constitution alone (and as such, I believe Guantanamo detainees, captured during an undeclared war, should have been extended at least cursory constitutional rights once moved from the battlefield to a permanent base and that warrantless wiretapping is a danger to us all)

No wonder I have one hell of a time voting!

Interesting combo ya got going there, Otter!

To my previous, I would add I believe "when Jesus said 'love your enemies' He meant don't kill them."

Out of curiosity, what do you see as a shameful act on the part of the student organization that reported the vandalism?

Otter, very beautifully stated!
Leah-Ann "love your enemies" does not mean let them kill you.
Other wise, we have beat this to death! Come on, it was wrong and what he did was wrong (ripping the flag). If he had not"ripped" it there would be no crime!!!!!!!

thanks azbob -- every little validation helps and is needed sometimes when I feel rather lonely in my beliefs.

LA -- La Raza could have refrained from suing just because they can and proved that their movement is one that is proud to be in America by seeking dialogue with Mr. Lynch and making him look rather silly. As it is now, they've got the entire right wing establishment wanting him as a write-in candidate against McCain. That's their right, but serves no real purpose other than that of prideful hyper-nationalism.

Otter, "La Raza" (I assume you are talking about the student organization that raised the Mexican flag, El Centro La Raza) didn't sue Mr. Lynch. They reported to police that someone stole their flag and destroyed it. The DA prosecuted him for the offense. (That's prosecutorial discretion for ya!) Why do you deem the reporting of a crime wrong?

azbob, what did Jesus mean when he said, "Love your enemies?" Not that I'm a fan of this kind of oversimplification, but - who would Jesus bomb?

oh please

I didn't not say or even imply that Jesus would bomb anyone! I said " "love your enemies" does not mean let them kill you." I have an obligation to protect my family and friends. I did not say I would bomb them. Why would you interperate that to mean that Jesus would bomb anyone?

Well stated! I love reading what someone believes in so much better than what(who) everyone is against. Whether I agree or not ( and in this case, I do agree), I think it takes a lot more courage to say what you stand for vs. stand against.

El Centro de la Raza
Statement presented on Oct. 3, 2007
Community Conversation, Ethnic Center Foyer
Veronica Mendez-Cruz, Director
Part of the statement was as follows:

It is the position of El Centro de la Raza that the acts of Peter Lynch were acts of hate and should be treated as such.

Leah-Ann: The statement from the El Centro website was very helpful: when you have specific knowledge, as you seem to have in many areas, I find it very helpful to have it presented in an informational way.

I cannot speak for anyone else, but I do not react well to being informed how I ought to think and behave, but am always open to new information in order to be able to better form my own opinions.

I have concluded:

I believe that the Mexican Flag, flying alone on State or Federal property on Constitution Day was wrong regardless of where the blame should fall

I believe Mr lynch acted appropriately in removing the offending flag

I believe he acted inappropriately in destroying it

I believe that after he reported what he had done and offered to replace it, before the police were ever involved, El Centro escalated a situation unnecessarily, and then the DA saw a headline grabbing case and pursued it inappropriately

I don't belive I was unable to distinguish, I do know I had paid little heed until this afternoon, and as such I now know the difference between La Raza and El Centro De La Rasa, and wonder if our exchanges would be less contentious if you had responded to me more in this manner?



By the way, the rule I cited YOU called a (federal) law, and I was asking for confirmation, and he didn't trespass, he was a student at NMU, where the plaque at the bottom of the flagpole states that the US flag should fly during day light hours

I guess NASCAR is off?

Ah Pug, I do appreciate the quote from the El Centro, I hadn't seen it before. I read several articles about this event aroud the time it happened. Well over a year ago if I recall correctly. (old news?) I can't remember the dates, but it appears the quote you provide came several months later. So did this info:
"The UNM student who ignited controversy when he ripped apart a Mexican flag last month had earlier posted a statement on the Internet calling Mexicans "wet-backs," a university department charged Tuesday."
That charge was leveled by the school, not El Centro. Mr. Lynch responded "he doesn't believe he posted the message." a far cry from outright denial. I think the quotes were lifted from his myspace page.
I'm sorry that you read my comments to be instruction to you as to how you "ought to think and behave." My comments were intended to portray my view of how you do think and act. Just my opinion. You've expressed similar as to me.
The Mexican flag doesn't offend me - but little does. What offended you? After all, it was the American recruits who left it up there all alone and then forgot to rehang the US flag the following day.
Any way you slice it, Mr. Lynch trespassed. Why do you believe he reported the act to El Centro before he was contacted by law enforcement? I don't believe that is accurate. I do believe DA's abuse their discretion more than I'm comfortable with - but hey, I'm on the other side these days - I gave up the white hat when the shine wore off.
As I am all about the accuracy, it just wouldn't be fair for me to address you as "My Dear Friend" and you know how I feel about nascar.

azbob, why do you think I credited that statement to you? I didn't say you said it - or implied it. I did ask a direct question, which you didn't answer. For me, the obligation to protect my family and friends belongs to Someone who can actually do the job and won't mistakenly shoot an innocent person. In each of the few records we have of Jesus being met with violence, he is never seen reacting in kind.

I do not understand when you say say you did not attritude that to me???
It's late and I did not have much to drink, but I'm going to spleep on it.

LA -- I misinterpreted the facts of the case -- thanks for the clarification.

However, "El Centro" could have behaved very differently when charges were filed.

Leah-Ann, after a good night’s sleep, I see that you are asking a rhetorical question: “who would Jesus bomb”. I am not a theologian, just a simple man who believes in God. There is no one right answer to that question. You will get many opinions based on ones’ religious belief, but it will be an endless debate with no resolution.

Otter, I agree. Given all of the facts,El Centro was not out of line in thinking Mr. Lynch's actions were racially motivated. But it was the DA who let an opportunity slip by. This would have been a perfect case for mediation.

Sometimes, life is kind enough to hand out special gifts!

After staying up late to be chastised in both Mini Chat and on the message board, I got up early this morning and rode my bike many miles through the far north DFW Metroplex on a club ride.

One of the guys I was riding with was busy blaming GWB for everything, including the potholes in the road, while echoing the praises of the new messiah.

As we neared home, he suddenly swung to the side of the road and tore down a sign that was nailed to a telephone pole! "I hate people who do that" he said, and carried on riding. My mind of course immediately wondered if there was a way to escalate this to a felony, thus canceling his vote, but no one seems to bother about that anymore, and anyway, he seems like a nice guy when not in his “Change” induced trance.

My dilemma as a law abiding citizen is what I should do next: yesterday, I may have ignored this behavior, but now I know a crime has been committed!

Am I aiding and abetting if I don't report him?

Should I go to any ADA, or wait for the next election cycle in the area and head for the top (gender neutral) person?....(wow I'm getting the hang of this sensitivity thing)

I am so conflicted, as I only want to do the right thing......

By the way, the name on the sign?

El Centro Lawn Service

I could not even begin to explain my laughter to the other riders!

I couldn't pass this up

very nice!

ah, pug - a truly blessed start to your day
a little angst never hurt anyone

p.s.: am I in error thinking you actually enjoyed your late night activities?


elbert, it's always easy to find the ugly american - I like to think they are not truly representative

Your not sitting where I am.
:-)

very true - chair's probably not big enough anyway

oh yeah?

Pug, absolutely great! That was too good to made up. I understand your dilemma. Tuff choice. but to resolve it ,maybe you should have your riding buddy pay for the sign. Wait , he may get sued or prosecuted. Your softer side is showing!

If perhaps you could wear some of those nasty shoes you are always talking about while you slap me around, we may be able to achieve a win/win situation

What excites me the most though is that you seem able to consider that you may be in error, so our late night therapy sessions appear to be working

pug, i didn't need therapy 'til you showed up -it's much like that old joke
Patient: Doctor, it hurts when I do this...
Doctor: Then stop doing it!

Patient: But despite myself, I seem to enjoy the pain, and feel strangely compelled to keep doing it

I believe they have a name for that . . .

As smart as you are, and as picky about "use of English", I'm sure you understand that within the context of this thread, in your "joke", and thus also my addendum, You would be the patient?

pug -- are you sure you and LA aren't an item on the side? At times, there's little difference between your correspondence and my interaction with Mrs. O.

OUCH!!

Definitely a love hate relationship, but don’t tell their significant other! :-)

Otter, I have sat with you 2 nights in a row at dinner while Mary and the boys texted or phoned you every 5 minutes and you replied "yes dear" between telling Jane and I stories about them and showing us photos!

I do not think I've met anyone who seems more devoted to his family than you....

If you talk back, it must be in private!

geez, Otter, thanks to you the secret's out!

pug, this is one of those rare situations where you are correct - twice in a row. Alas, they say it's the third time that's the charm - better luck next time!

.....and I didn't even mention that your "rental car" was a mini van!

oh, now that's low -- nobody on this board knew I was a soccer dad -- thanks a lot!

Ha! that'll teach you to run your mouth, spilling secrets all over the place!

Oh boy - I must be old, I'm still from the era when we believed Black is Beautiful.

It Still Is.!!