Sort of curious about what others think, and since the other thread is locked, let's talk about it here. What's the current property tax rate? Is it the same for foreign property owners? The question about what rate you are willing to pay seems especially interesting. I'll likely be buying property in the next year, and have not considered the taxes yet. Thanks in advance.

I've had this discussion many times with many people of all walks and the general consensus is that in almost all cases the property tax is too low.

There are some considerations though, those people who have spent their entire lives on the island, worked hard their entire lives, own their own home but happen to live somewhere that the property value is now so large that they could never afford a market value adjustment.

There has to be some consideration for those people, they never intended for San Pedro to become what it has and they shouldn't be driven from their homes if a property tax increase affects them in a negative way.

If the property taxes increase to market value there needs to be some kind of exemption to prevent hardship to the founders of the island.

Simon, you are right on the mark. Here in KC, we have seen "gentrification" of older neighborhoods that results in increased business development and city services and economic activity of all kinds. All well and good until the taxing authorities decide it is time to re-assess property values and then the folks that stuck it out through the lean years get hammered. A mechanism must be devised that addresses the need to accurately assess property values in a way that takes into account both enhanced revenue to support needed infrastructure as well as the moral necessity of rewarding and preserving heritage, longevity and stability.

Both Hawaii and San Diego have well-developed property taxing systems that seem to work fairly. Property is reevaluated and reassessed on a level, uniform schedule, then exemptions are available for primary residence and elderly retired folks.

Of Belize's total tax revenues, only about 1% comes from property taxes.

The bulk (close to 75%) of Belize's total tax revenues come from the GST and import duties, both highly regressive forms of taxation that hit the poor and low-income folks much harder than those better off.

Belize property taxes are very low, but I guess the thought has always been that many Belizeans couldn't afford to pay higher property taxes. Possibly a "homestead exemption" system would be an idea.

--Lan Sluder

Good ideas and comments, please keep them coming.

Skippy, the rates on the island range from between 1 - 4% of the "assessed" value of the property. Since the assessments in many cases are highly inaccuratly low, the annual property taxes are extremely low. Unfortunately because of the low taxation costs many basic services, amenities and even infrastructure is sorely lacking in this town.

For example, many existing condo complexes pay only $300 Bz per year for the entire complex! Some complexes have begun to be assessed by individual units and the costs run between $150 - 225.00 per unit per year. Many million dollar mansions pay $350 Bz per year. But as I mentioned, there is no rhyme or reason to the assessments, for example I own a vacant lot up the coast that was inaccessible by road and had no power for many years and my taxes are and have been $825. And yet half million dollar villas in the same neighbourhood are paying $500 - shared amongst a few homes. My old house in San Pablo cost only $45.00 per year!

I posed the question - how much would you be willing to pay, or how much do you think you ought to pay because many of the property owners on the caye come from industialised first world nations. These tax payers know how high their property taxes are in those countries, and why.

I am shocked at the absolute thrill I see on some people's faces when they realize that their taxes on a $1m BZ home is only $500 Bz per year. But they still expect the streets to be fixed, a high level of sanitation, security, health care etc. So many complainants are indignant when the streets are impassable or the town trash truck breaks down and can't service all of the areas efficiently. I PAY MY TAXES - you hear them cry. Well, as with most things in life, we get what we pay for.

I seem to recall that if all of taxes are paid each year San Pedro could raise around $3million Belize dollars. To some that may sound like a lot of money, but these days that kind of money doesn't even scratch the surface.

The San Pedro town council receives an annual stipend from the Central Government that amounts to $65K Bz per year. Every time we have a few inches of rain and the streets are severely potholed the cost to fill holes and grade etc. can cost $60K.

The street rehabilitation project is costing millions.

There are many other vital areas of importance that must be addressed.

It looks like our free ride or cheap thrill is over - if we want to improve the general quality of life, health and security in our town, whether this is your full time home or vacation get-a-way, we love this place, we love the people and now we have to start taking more responsibility for our actions and requirements.

Let's do this together! Viva San Pedro!

Jessie, I have to differ with you regarding Hawaii. I have very good friend who are native Hawaiian and the family estate was very extensive. Taxes got to the point where they had to sell off sections at a time just to pay the taxes on the remaining acreage. It finally reached the point where they could not afford the taxes and had to sell to get out from under. This is land that had been in the family for 100+ years (if I remember correctly). Yes, they made money on the sale, a tidy sum since it was loan free, but the point is they did not want to sell, but did not have the income to pay the taxes and were forced to sell., So I would not look to Hawaii as an example IMO.

It's my understanding that the BTB collects all of the hotel tax dollars nationwide. That must change to provide more tourist dollars to improve the island.

You missed my point...that a simple primary residence is protected by exemptions...nothing to do with large estate lands and inheritance issues.

Amanda...if you say there is no rhyme nor reason to the tax assessments; perhaps that should be the first thing to get fixed.
A reduction in taxes for the elderly is probably a good thing and like Reaper says...hotel taxes... a large percentage should definetly stay on the island. As for a different tax rate based on how long you have been on the island...that gets complicated. After the all of the above has been fixed and taken care of..then they can consider adjusting rates. Upwards?...yea..probably....gradually.

Amanda, I'm from a high tax State and bought in San Pedro partially to escape the high taxes and regulations. (Of course there where other considerations) My home in the states is taxed at about 1% of full market value and is reassessed every couple of years by "qualified" appraisers. (The assessment always increases of course and in areas where they have dropped they increase the rate per thousand in that town.) Real estate taxes here have become a real problem. I'm sure I'm not alone in this. If you taxed me at 1% of "real value" of my home, my tax bill would increase 10+ times.

Now I understand the needs and I agree with most of them but a 10+ times additional expense would have been calculated into my decision to buy. Any increase must be gradual and based on a fair equation. You must use assessments which are real for everyone and have a reasonable method for appeal. Exemptions for certain deserving people, OK. The problem is going to be keeping politics and favoritism out of it. Lastly the taxes paid by owners must be a public record which can be easily accessed.

In addition my unit (north or the bridge) has no city water, no trash pick up, a path for a street, not much in police protection. Being retired soon and living on a fixed income do I pay the same rate as some one in town who has city services? I'm not looking for a lot of services and I'm satisfied with what San Pedro offers, go easy, bigger government and resulting higher taxes scare me more.

The discussion on raising real estate tax was begun as a possible solution to the crime problem by raising needed funds to help with this.

Voicing suggestions on ways to make an increase in property tax equitable are all good. Just voicing objections to raising the tax is not helpfull unless an alternative way to solve the problem is offered.

I personally do not feel any goverment could offer me the basic services I need with the revenue from the little tax I pay.

Put me down as someone not satisfied with just "getting what I am paying for" and willing to pay more to get services like a safe place to live.

I didn't purchase property and live part of the year in San Pedro because the taxes are cheap there. I want the other reasons I did to be preserved.

What difference does it make what the taxes are if the town does not or cannot aggressively collect.

My understanding is that there is no real recoarse for those that choose not to pay. The only time back taxes come in to play is when a proerty is sold. If one has no plan to sell then there is no real motivation to pay other than "it's the right thing to do".

No question taxes are too low. I just paid mine last week, a grand total of $180 US for two lots.

B-N-US
I agree. I heard the Mayoress say that 60% of the property taxes are unpaid. It was suggested to her that the names of these property owners be published in the paper. She gasped "Oh no, you can not embarrass people that way."

About increasing taxes: California passed Proposition 13 that froze taxes .."In the state of California, if your property was a beneficiary of Proposition 13, when you sell that property and purchase new property you can take your property taxes with you providing that the new property you purchase costs less than the selling price of the old property and that you are buying in the same county or a reciprocating county. . . "

I purchased a small house in 1973. In 1990 I tore it down to the stud walls (even some of those had to go) and rebuilt adding a 2nd story. Since I kept the footprint the same the tax on the lower floor remained the same but the 2nd story was taxed at the much higher rate. Taxes went from $600 a year to $1,800 every six months.

This formula could work here very easily

First question that needs to be answered is "are the taxes levied, i.e. all taxes, sufficient to generate the income to provide the needed services?"

Then one can discuss fairness, collection and efficiency of goverment, etc.

My question to the Mayoress would be: If all the taxes were collected, could you provide the needed services that you are not?.

If her answer was yes, then I would say collect the damn taxes and give the services. If the answer is no, then decide what is needed and how to get it - that is your job.

Oh, we're gonna have a budget????????

I'm all for paying more property tax if it will get things done. But the question is, why should the people who pay have to make up for the people who don't? I understand the poor can't afford to pay their taxes sometimes but there are also some rich people not paying their taxes. Why should I cover their share?

You shouldn't and they should be embarrassed as noted above.

You must have a legal system that forces payment...liens and seizures for non-payment.

Its ironic that the legal system will confiscate property and sell it to statisfy a debt determined to be owed to a person, but cannot find a way to collect money owed the goverment.

I wonder if it is a fault of the legal system or a fault of elected officials to do their job.

Along the lines of local taxes and local services, I just learned that the police force in Belize is national not local.

I was also told that one suggestion made to the town counsel to combat the rising crime on the island was for San Pedro to have it's own local police force. This makes sense to me.

Does anyone know if this is being pursued by the town counsel?

From the Towns Property Tax Act - Subsidiary:

2. The Property Evaluation fee for San Pedro Town shall be as follows:-
(a) in respect of unoccupied property of a value of three
hundred dollars and above, 1.5% of the value thereof;
(b) in respect of unoccupied property of a value of less than
three hundred dollars, the sum of one dollar;
(c) in respect of occupied property of an annual value of
thirty-five dollars and above, 2.5 % of the annual value
thereof;
(d) in respect of occupied property of an annual value of less
than thirty-five dollars, 2.5% of the annual value thereof;
Provided, however, that the sum of one dollar shall be the minimum
rate payable in respect of any property or holding of real- property.

It should be noted that in the Towns Property Tax Act sale of the property to pay arrears is law.

You can reference the act at: http://www.belizelaw.org/lawadmin/index2.html

keyword search property

Most of the comments concerning the lack of adequate police protection are stating the lack of funds to provide enough police, adequate housing for the police and proper equipment. It would not matter whether it was a local or national force if not funded properly. It would seem logical to attempt a solution working within the existing police force before creating a new one.

True except that if a local police force required their officers to also live local then that increases said officers interest in "cleaning up" the community in which they live.

I was told that many of the officers on the island live on the mainland or their families live on the mainland. Is this true?

What has where the local police live have to do with TAXES on the Island?

A local police force would be funded with local tax dollars.

The housing provided for the police while serving on the island leaves a lot to be desired.

This whole discussion is about "services" right?

No one is really complaining that the taxes are too low. We want more services, more water & sewer, better roads, more / better police services and are willing to pay for those services.

Local police would live in their own houses.

I do not know of one San Pedrano police officer or member of the BDF. San Pedranos in general are accustomed to a lifestyle that could not be maintained if one were to join the government services. Therefore our police officers are all transplants from the mainland. Most of their families continue to live on the mainland due to the high cost of living on the island, as well as the fact that the officers are rotated from area to area around the country on a regular basis. They don't have enough time to establish a "home life" in San Pedro before it is time to move on.

As Simon has mentioned above, property tax rolls are public. You can go to the town board offices and they can release the requested info to you. Obviously they're not going to print out all 4,000 or so bills for you to peruse, but you can ask for specific bills.

There is legislation in place that enables the town board to auction off your property in order to satisfy arrears. It rarely happens, but it is done from time to time.

Years ago the town council had a fellow that collected taxes full time for a fee of 10% of collections. That sounds a little high until you realize the amount of work, time and energy involved. It was also his job to draft and publish legal notices and eventually seek judgments and perform auctions.

Most town boards don't enforce these issues to the extreme because it can make them unpopular - and they are after all, politicians.

A revamp of the system is in the works, I don't know what methods they will be utilizing. There is a valuation board and an appeals process available if some owners have compelling reasons why an assessment might be overly burdensome.

For those that have a moment, please send me your responses to the questions that I posed on the other thread.

Thanks for your time.

I don't want to pay one more cent for any tax to any government. There are better ways to support a society than giving the money to a beurocracy that thinks they can spend it better than the people themselves.

How would you handle the crime problem?

I generally support putting the cost burden or responsibility of solving whatever problem or providing whatever service on the people who directly benefit, rather than the unassociated and unrepresented who have no (or remote) interest on the initiative. The closer you are to the problem, and the closer you are to the solution, the more you care that the actions taken actually solve the problem, and do so in the most efficient way.

To solve the problem, you first need to break the issue down into manageable and solvable compartments and deal with each individually.

In the case of a crime problem you would first have to ask, what crime is specifically at issue and whom is it directly affecting. Then you can look into possible solutions where the people who are most greatly affected can be integrated with the solution.

Do you own property here or plan to buy here? If you do, how do you suppose that there will be any improvement to infrastructure to support your investment if you want a free ride?

I do own property on Ambergris Caye, though just an empty lot. No home or business.

I'm not sure how you get that I want improvement to infrastructure without any cost to myself. In fact, quite the opposite. When I build my home, I should be expected to pay for the improvement of the infrastructure required to support that home. This is exactly the point. Others who simply hold land with no draw on the infrastructure should not be required to pay for those who do.

The town councilors are very seriously working on a solution collect more revenue. I fear that if the general public doesn't input their concerns in a timely and logical fashion that we will all get huge, across the board assessments which will still not have any rhyme or reason - and also I feel that some people will end up exempted or assessed at different levels.

The town has begun gathering its own data to help find true value assessments. Transfers of land are matters of public record and the values paid are recorded in Belmopan and stamp duty (transfer tax) is paid on these title and stock share transfers.

Although tax hikes are unpopular, sometimes they are necessary. But the way they are assessed and implemented may not be logical, so any input will be helpful.

I have spoken with Mayoress Paz on numerous occaisions about city services becoming local. Now that the UDP is running the GOB I doubt any separation will occur.
If you do the math on the Belize tax structure and how the country recieves it's operating money, there is glaring warning signals as to where all of the money has gone.
There are about 300,000 people in Belize, the size of a medium city in the US.
When you look at the low salaries government workers make and the lack of many services nationwide it doesn't make sense.
Belize should be the wealthiest nation in Central America.But since that is an entire different thread for another day I'll move on.

1.San Pedro needs to collect all of the tax dollars due.
2.San Pedro should hire and manage their own police and fire force. They should also fund a paramedic program.
3.The BTB should fund at least $500,000Bz to the town council.
4.There should be a point of entry/exit for all air and water taxi passengers to the island.
5.The GOB should provide better educational and recreational facilities to the island.
6.Wouldn't this all be nice! Fantasy hour is over...carry on!!

If property was assessed at full value at $350,000 (not a usually high number these days) occupied property would go from about $300 to $9,000 under the law that was quoted. Boy you better get a lot more services and less crime.

If you start a "local" police force, what's to stop the National Gov. from pulling some of their police out to other crime areas around the country and in numbers you end up the same or maybe lower. Maybe the locals would be better because they live here; maybe they would be as ineffective.

Before we throw wheel barrels of money at our problems we should have some well thought out plans before you end up with very high taxes and the same problems. Wasn't it a few weeks ago I read they where floating an idea to levy a considerable tax on docks to protect the environment in some way that wasn't quite explained in the papers. I'm not sure where that stands now.

There needs to be a good plan, the right attitude by the people in charge and the backing by town people to get the changes you want.

Amanda tried to send you an email, but it just came back failed, are you having any problems with your email address ?

Ragman says..."Wasn't it a few weeks ago I read they where floating an idea to levy a considerable tax on docks to protect the environment in some way that wasn't quite explained in the papers. I'm not sure where that stands now." Nope ..not a gradual increase,but crazy talk like that by the taxman is enuff to put a halt to tourism and local jobs. The unemployed will have more time to get into trouble and then you will see even more crime!

This is why we need to be sure to let the town council know what the general public is thinking and what direction we want to see our town's taxation and permiting processes to take. Taxes can kill the hard working businesses and leave everybody without a job.

Bottom line is the town needs more money, and we have to figure out where to get this from without overburdening any one particular group or industry.

Our tourists are already taxed to the max and they are feeling the pinch. We can't have their numbers going down because small hotels, dive shops etc are already having a hard time keeping afloat.

Amanda,
I would love to see a budget developed and publized that showed both expenses and income for the town. Then people would know how much it costs to run the town, what projects need to be done, where the money is coming from now, and how much more needs to be raised to balance the budget. Then the amount of revenue needed from property taxes could be developed, instead of an arbitrary amount, then the people not having a clue where the money is going. I agree that the property taxes need to be increased but just want to know that I am getting something for my tax dollars.

Yes Kwalkpt - I am working on getting that info together. I realize that the more informed the public is the more it can help all of us understand and target the main problem areas.

Thanks Amanda for all the work!!

Belize is a tiny county, about the size of a small U.S. city. To think that tax policy can be developed absent of national policy is naive. I agree that tax policy needs to be revised. Belize is overly depended on duty taxes, which prevents Belizeans from enjoying many of the conforms of life. Belize needs to protect its interests, but the duty is unrealistic. The sales tax might need to be taken off food (not resturants) and property taxes increased, some to the national government and some to the local government. Income taxes need to be visited. I swear each time I cross the bridge. I doubt if the toll generates enough revenue to pay the three workers. Jobs for friends or family? Belize is a third world country trying to find its way and a sound tax policy is important.

I never thought I would say this but my property taxes are too low. I would be in favor of a higher tax provided the money was going to stay on the island.
Taxing the tourists has been done here to the point where we already run off the the tourists. I frankly would like to see the tax paid to get into the country lowered, so the hotels, resturant and dive shops would have more customers.

If you check the property tax laws you'll find that each town/city has it's own section. So in the case of property taxes they are developed on a local not national basis.

Throwing money at a problem, only creates more problems.

Many politicians view TAXES - as an unlimited Well, for them to tap.
This can be very dangerous, and very harmfull in the long run.

This is a complicated issue -

Will higher taxes chase away investors?

Will you tax people out of house and home, or do you provide "excemtions" and adopt a Socialist System of "each according to his ability, each according to his need"

Do you tax a Resident Less- or do you charge him More ?
(if the tax is to pay for services) he uses the services year-round, and benifits the most.

The collection of Property Taxes - is skewed collection system and is not "Use Based",
Does the owner of a $900K home really use more services than the owner of a $200k home???

Studies show - No, individuals in Lower income housing residents tend to use police, fire & schools more .

Where are the current GST Taxes going?
Does A/C get it's fair share?

Does A/C currently benifit from the Millions in foriegn aid?

The U.S. Agency for International Development provided $110 million worth of development assistance to Belize, and continues to provide regional assistance for the construction and renovation schools ,youth hostels, medical assistance programs, and drug reduction programs.

Additionally, the US provide $2.5 million per year for general "Economic Assistance" , not counting private donations from individuals and various groups.

Belize needs to "Stop The Bleeding" first.
Evaluate it's systems.
Impliment Policy.
Approve a budget.
.... before it even thinks about raising taxes.

Unfortunatly AC is very similar to a wealthy individual in the US. The top wage earners, 1% to 5%, pay the vast majority of taxes and receive little in return. The country of Belize has many needs and few places or people with the income to tax for those needs. AC will never get its "fair share" of taxes paid returned to AC. AC needs to find ways to fund its needs by taxing its own residents. GOB will never be able to fund all of the needs of AC and also support the needs of the rest of the country - that is even assuming the new goverment doesn't steal for their own personal gain like the last, which is a huge assumption. And waiting and begging GOB to fund all of the needs of AC will only lead to further decline of the island.

I am a conservative in my politics and normally opposed to increased taxes, but when I pay a few hundred dollars on my condo I am paying too little in taxes. I am willing, and should pay more, provided the money is used efficiently to improve the island.

I am a frequent visitor to San Pedro, 5>6 times a year. I've toyed with the thoughts of buying a property and simply extending my visits to months rather than a week or so, but have decided to remain a tourist and not to buy a home there simply because of the conditions being discussed in this thread. Somehow, I doubt that I am alone in my views of this problem.
In the past I have been in business management and law enforcement management positions and have had the oppertunity to observe similar problems and even participated in solution discussions. One thing was always apparent at the begenning of these talks; ie, averybody acknowledged that a problem existed and that a good solution would improve the community and its environment imeasurably. But, when all of the talking was done and the problem reidentified, the solution always boiled down to management by "choice" and not by "chance". And after it was fully understood that it was imperative that the community be operated like a "business", and not a hobby, or as a spoke in a big wheel, and had a Chief Executive Officer in charge, wonderful things began to take place. AC is the biggest business in the country of Belize and it needs to be dealt with as such. There is no substitute for a "Plan" when none exists. JMHO... dirty American Tourist.

Don Greife, I can't really blame you for being hesitant to invest in a company with 60% of its income in arrears, with no plan in place, no budget and threatening to increase its prices to its consumers.

The property taxes where we live are very high. We voted for an override since we have a cap on increases over 2 1/2%. The town reasses your property to an amount you will never sell for. With the increase in taxes it was to restor services in ouor schools and senior service - instead our town council decided to add new programs, buy the police department ATV's and new SUV's believe me there is no need for this.

Where we vacation at a large lake in NH charges unheard of property taxes if you have water front property we looked at one house for $400,000 and the taxes were $24,000 per yr. They are now trying to implement a "scenic water view tax" so if you live across the street and can see the water you get charged a premium rate also.

My opinion is to just be very careful on this slippery tax slope. I agree with most of the posters that get the arrears in tact before you go after those that are paying because if they are not paying you now they are not going to pay the increase. Who knows if you collect even 60% of the 60% that aren't paying you may not been in as bad shape as you think. Yes I do own property.

There is a big difference between paying $24K in taxes on a valued $400K property and paying $200. You show me any city that can provide the basic infrastructure and police protection with that tax revenue.

We are looking for solutions here. Yes, you can talk about how poorly goverments spend tax dollers and how unfair taxation can be, but IMO, there is no way AC can provide me with the living conditions I and the other residence deserve and must have to make AC the place we all want it to be with the current real estate tax structure.

My opinion is AC needs to stop relying on GOB to solve so many of its problems and find new revenues of its own that the local politicians can keep and use for the problems of AC and be held responsible by the people of AC to do so.

I am willing to pay more in tax and take a chance on the local goverment as opposed to depending on GOB and have AC turn into another Belize City.

PS: yes you can relate running a municipality to running a business. But, for a business to be successful, the first thing it needs, and must have, is proper capitalization. I admit I have not seen the budget or income the Town Council has, and that should be the first step in analizing the situation. But, I will be surprised if and hopefully when, someone with some sense looks at that, that AC can provide the solutions to crime and provide the needed infrastucture to keep pace with development with me paying a few hundred dollars tax on my condo. I will complain like HELL when I am paying too much for what I get, but I will not be in the group that bitches and moans about the problems but is not willing to pay to solve them.

Aggressive collection MUST come first. Tax liens, public notices of past due taxes, freezing bank accounts and finally property auctions to satisfy tax liens are the only ways to force people to pay.

No question our proerty taxes are too low but 40% uncollected taxes is way out of line.

Collect what is due first, increase rates second.

I will gladly pay more for more services but EVERYONE else should pay as well.

The very poor living in very poor housing should pay less simply because they can't pay more even though they utilize services the same amount or more. A tax system will never be "fair". The wealthy will always pay more taxes yet utilize public services less. That's just the way it is in a social society.

One of the problems is, believe it or not, politics. The elected town officials being UDP used the fact that the last goverment was PUP and would not give them what they deserved. Well now both local and national are UDP. I bet AC will still not get what is needed from GOB because GOB is broke.
So are the local politicians, wanting to be re-elected, going to go to the voters and say - "we are going to force you to pay your back taxes - even though if we collect those, it is only a drop in the bucket, so we are going to increase your taxes also".

If the solutions are going to be found, it requires all of us to be willing to pay what is needed. It will require the voters to demand of the politicians to do what is needed and tax us if necessary. Good luck. It probably won't happen. Especially if people here keep finding reasons why they should not pay more than a few hundred dollars on property worth hundreds of thousands.

It would be much more helpfull to discuss how we can find the needed revenues, and it is undeniable that more money is needed, than to talk about why we should not using reasons like a relitively small amount of back taxes are not collected. Yes, 40% is alarming. But 40% of what? If that 40% amounts to very little of what is really needed, do you expect the policticians to go after it? That is not the answer.

40% of what is a good question. How do you know that is a small amount if it is not published by public notice?

"It would be much more helpfull to discuss how we can find the needed revenues, and it is undeniable that more money is needed, than to talk about why we should not using reasons like a relitively small amount of back taxes are not collected. Yes, 40% is alarming. But 40% of what? If that 40% amounts to very little of what is really needed, do you expect the policticians to go after it? That is not the answer."

What is the answer?

It would be hard for me to go to a SanPedrano and say "I pay $200 in taxes on my half a million dollar condo and you are not paying your $10 in taxes on your $25K house. You are the problem".

I think I, and people like me, are the problem more than the guy not paying his pennies in back taxes, and are the solution. First in setting the example and mood that we are willing to pay what is needed and then addressing issues like collecting from the guy who probably can't afford it.

It will take a united community to force the politicians to do what is needed and a "rich gringo" paying what he pays in taxes telling a poor San Pedrano he needs to pay more will not unite. I am not one of those saying that.

Warren you and I are on the same page here for a nice change but again how do you know the back taxes owed are "pennies". I bet 40% of all taxes owed is more than you think. I bet that 40% uncollected would be enough to hire several "local" police and pay their salaries for a year maybe more.

A public accounting of overdue taxes would answer that question.

How do you know that only the very poor are the ones not paying? What if some of these "back taxes" are owed by people like us that own there, can pay but just don't. I met a local bar/rest. owner last week who said he didn't pay his taxes because the guy he bought from didn't pay so he had to pay the back taxes at sell. He said the next guy who buys from him will just have to do the same.

I don't think a public notice of unpaid taxes will divide the community. And I also don't think there are enough "rich gringos" to pay for all the needed services for the island.

OK, I will agree with you on some of this for a change. You are right, I do not know how much extra there could be if all taxes were paid. I am only assuming that if I pay what I pay for my condo in taxes, the total tax role is not sufficient to meet the needs. And, before I come across as someone who comes here, pays for real estate that drives prices up where locals cannot afford to buy, and then complains that some of them are not paying their fair share when what I pay is 1 to 2% of what I would pay for like property in my own country, I prefer to look in the mirror and like what I see before I look to my neighbors.

Just think how this conversation would come across to a local reading it. Makes it pretty easy to see why "gringo" can have a negative connotation and where the term "ugly American" comes from.

Irregardless of what others pay or don't pay, I cannot in good faith be critical based on what I pay. I am not saying I have the answers. That is up to those that vote and those they vote into office. But, I will be surprised if an answer is ever found and it turns out I am not part of the problem based on my existing contribution by way of real estate tax. It is going to take a unified community willing to pay what needs to be paid to solve the problems. Not a community that looks to their neighbors to pay for what is needed.

AC has looked far too long for all of its needs to be paid for thru taxes on tourists or for sufficient funds to be returned by the GOB. It will kill tourism and leave AC having to invest and pay for the needs it did not do when it should have.

I've been watching and paying annually property taxes in San Pedro since 1986 on several different pieces of property.I have personal experience subdividing and reselling.
I've noticed;
Property taxes are outrageously cheap.
The Town Board does a extremely poor job of accounting and managing the collection of the tax.(no matter which party is in power)
IMHO
A professional accounting and management co. would solve the problem, The skills necessary to do a proper job can't be found by appointing people to be in charge from the population of the village.
The system of notifying the Town Board that the subdivision of large parcels of property has taken place is faulty. Taxes are said to be unpaid on tracts that no longer exist because they are no longer coconut plantations but multi million dollar subdivisions. Hearing that lots of unpaid taxes is the problem makes me feel even worse about the poor management , the revenue lost from having an old system taxing properties for what they where ten years ago does not compare with late payments.

In the In the late 1990's. The Town Board was making this same noise about unpaid taxes and woe of no money to do anything because all 'these people' aren't paying their property taxes.I went to the Tax office in Belize city to search tax records for the Subdivision of Mata Grande, most of you know Mata Grande it has a mile long strip of beach front Hotels ,Restaurants and million dollar homes. I discovered The Taxes for the whole of Mata Grande where being paid to Belmopan by the person who had owned this Coconut Plantation for the tune of $467.bz per year. This has of course been corrected but isn't an exception.

Elbert is right on the money as usual.

Now that we have beaten property taxes to death I suggest we look at other sources of revenue. For a number of years I have asked that traffic laws be enforced and tickets issued. I have even checked to be sure that if a fine is paid the money would stay in the town treasury. People continuously complain about taxi drivers and now we have all sorts of motor scooters, motorcycles and ATV racing down our main streets.

NONE HAVE EVER BEEN TICKETED! Why – the lame answer is that you can’t prove how fast they were going. I asked if there is a law against reckless driving – and there is – they could use that one.

The Mayoress wants the town to have its own police force. Whoa! There are so many allegations about corrupt police that they are rotated on a regular basis “to keep them from forming bonds with residents.” Local police would already have bonds with the community and there are a handful of powerful families that run the town.

Laws were passed and warnings were posted about garbage. I have not heard of one cent being collected from this source.

I love living here but am not blind to the attitudes that prevail. The idea of “getting over” comes from the top down and many wallow in this foolish pride.

I better stop now!

I wonder why Amanda would pose a question to this forum and then lock it to replies? Sure seems odd to me.

That said, I believe Amanda's question is slyly posed. First of all, raising property taxes is not the only way to raise funds for municipal projects. It's just the UNIMAGINATIVE way to raise funds for municipal projects. Assessing hefty property taxes is the American Way of meeting municipal budget obligations but I don't think that nonsense should be copied in Belize. One of the beauties of living in Belize is that you can be assured of a roof over your head even in your old age because you know the government will not come to kick you out of your home over taxes. It is a beautiful thing and should remain the beautiful thing that it is. Don't mess with it.

Obviously, I would be unequivocally opposed to the raising of property taxes specifically because property taxes create undue hardship for the people who can least afford it -- the poor.

I would recommend, that a per unit Impact Fee be charged to any developer over a certain size intending to build on the island.

Secondly, I would start a lobby to have a percentage of the hotel tax collected revert back to the island for improvements. It is only fair. What does the BTB do with all that tax money that the SP Business Association / SP Chamber of Commerce, etc. couldn't do much better with and for less money anyway? Marketing? I think business people are much more capable of selling their products that some civil servants sitting in little cubicles who have never operated a business. Give the money back BTB.

Impact Fees would revert to the City Council to upgrade utilities, road works, etc. to meet the increasing demands caused by the needs of these large-scale developments.

Thanks and cheers,
Wendy Auxillou

Well, because I had not seen this post, I posted a public response to Amanda in another post. Amanda responded to my other post, and then blocked the post. So much for the all-knowing Amanda and her blocking of posts addressed to her. I was wanting to reply to something in her response and to my shock and surprise it was blocked. Amazing ting dat.

That said, I will quote her comment I wanted to response to:

"On the open forum one person could assume many persona and falsely slant the findings because there would be no way to verify their honesty." -- Amanda Syme

One question: And this exact thing can't be done by private email?

Sheesh!

Cheers,
Wendy

Impact fees can help with needed additional infrastucture caused by their development. But, it is a one time charge and the expenses of running and maintaining the needs of the community are on going. There is no correlation between development and social needs. It is wrong to expect that development would provide thru impact fees the funds needed.

There needs to be annual fees paid by the community to support its needs. Those fees or taxes need to be assessed equitably and it is a responsibilty of everyone in the community.

Solutions are needed and I am one that feels what I pay in property tax is far too little and should be considered as one of the solutions. I am not one that says tax someone else, tax the tourist more, please GOB give me more money. Before I do that I must feel I am paying my fair share and a couple hundred dollars tax for my condo is not paying my fair share - IMO. If San Pedro can run the town based on that level of property tax, it can make millions showing others how.

I'd say the start in this fund raising item is to collect what is already owed in a fair and reasonable way, and then not let politicians steal or squander it. IMHO there is plenty of tax money available and coming in - the main problem is where it goes after collection. GST, Business Tax, Import Duties and Hotel Taxes are agressivly collected from most companies and individuals - why, because there is enough money to warrant agressive collection. The monthly collections form a reliable cash flow for government.
Perhaps some penalties for late payment on property taxes would motivate payments? "But" first we need some good record keeping in Lands (which is in overhaul)to know who owns what - and then it would be really nice to mail out tax bills (which does not seem to happen on time if ever), and respond to taxpayers who call in to ask for their tax bills.

"There needs to be annual fees paid by the community to support its needs. Those fees or taxes need to be assessed equitably and it is a responsibilty of everyone in the community." -- bywarren

My response:

Yeah, but it would be grossly unfair for me to be taxed more to pay for your needs if my needs are far less than yours and I don't need the things that YOU need.

("Me" and "you" are only being used demonstrably to make a point and not personally.)

OK, fair enough, but what needs do you think I need that others do not? I am talking about police, garbage, sewage, roads, schools, health care, etc.

PS: Wendy, do you think I am paying my fair share of a couple hundred dollars on my condo at Banyan Bay?

And Diane, I would be pleasantly surprised if you are right that there is enough revenue coming in. I truly hope you are right but I have a hard time believing that based on the little knowledge I have - that being what I pay.

The needs assessment is called the town budget. The town council decides what the priorities are and budgets for them. Any additional tax is really a user fee. Basically, a population says " we are unable to provide a needed service within the budget and have to raise additional monies". A town then figures out a way to charge for a service. Usually these fees are not used for the operating budget but for capital expenses. So you can raise money outside the tax base for a road but not for salaries. Now this may be different in Belize but I doubt it is very different. The question is how to develop a fee system for the service of the police department. Maybe there could be user fees for some other capital budget items with any surplus within the budget going towards police. One certainly does not want to develop a separate agency to act as a police department. It is difficult to fathom how it can be done. Raising taxes sends money in to the black hole. There is still no way to tie it to specific departments.

In the recent past we discussed the implementation of impact assessment fees for developers. That ball is in motion and rates are being adjusted since the first assessments were considered prohibitive and would be a large factor in stopping development (not the intention.)

Yes, it would be great if the BTB were to give back a little of its collections back to the communities that generated the income.

It would also be great if a portion the gst & business taxes were left in the community where it is generated.

I pay 15% business tax. Most businesses that I see on the island tend to run between 1.75% and 3%. A few companies run a little higher. I seem to remember that the estimated monthly biz tax & gst combined from the island averages about $60K per month. So even if we kept all of those taxes I find it hard to believe we could manage the town efficiently.

But the vast majority of the people on this island do not pay income tax or business tax. Most of the people on the island either don't work or fall short of the income level where taxes begin being assessed and collected.

Although San Pedro would love to collect all of the tax dollars generated and keep them on the island we also have an obligation to contribute to the rest of the country.

I don't believe we are receiving our fair share of tax dollars. But I also don't believe that new developers and tourist taxes should be the only groups that should be taxed and bear the burden of the necessary infrastructure for this island.

I don't believe that the people that live on this island, that utilize the roads, the services of the police, fire department, health dept etc. etc. should get a "free ride" and look to others (such as new developers and tourists) to pay for such services in full. Some of the responsibility and burden must lie with the general population too.

Amanda consider how much stamp duty is paid to the black hole called the Consolidated Revenue Fund annually (or even monthly) from real estate sales. It is astronomical.

If you add a portion of the stamp duty on real estate, some gst, business tax, hotel tax, existing property tax and an impact assessment fee, you would be in the black monthly.

The problem is not that enough tax dollars are not being generated, it's that they are not staying in your municipality.

If you consider the hotel tax collected in SP, that alone would cover the monthly budget.

And I am sorry, I just don't see why the poor resident in the back of the island should pay more property taxes because there is a need for a larger capacity reverse osmosis water plant because more water is needed to fill the ever increasing number of swimming pools on the front of the island, for example. (Not saying this is so, just using it as an example.)

Or to pay more to pave over once good roads ruined by "development" which are primarily for the enjoyment of visitors and purchasers of rich developments.

It just is not fair.

Oh, one more thing, the bleeding hearts that think they are not paying enough property tax can simply mail a check with an additional donation along with their tax check to the Town Council and label it "donation to the budget", much like people in the US who can afford it voluntarily mail checks to the U.S. Government to help bring down that gargantuan deficit.

Better yet, why doesn't everyone that can afford it pay the property tax of someone that hasn't paid yet and can't afford to pay it? Now would that be something? That way the town council would be one step closer to collecting "all" its outstanding taxes.

Whoa!!! We don't need a larger RO system...and if we did its not our problem since its owned by the company that is contracted to supply our water.
And where did you get the idea that the cobblestone streets are only for the visitors???
We all use them to get around, in fact they benefit the locals on bikes more than others.

Jesse, before there was "development" on San Pedro, there were fantastic roads of soft white powdery sand that worked just fine. The need for cobblestones on the streets of SP are as a direct result of that scourge called "development", and so let the developers pay for it. That's my 2 cents, for whatever its worth. That is why I suggest an "impact fee" to help alleviate the negative impact as a result of "development".

Yeah well 17 years ago when the streets were still virgin they were a horrible mess when it rained and we suffered lakes of mud, then in the dry all the kids got eye infections and breathing problems from the dust. "The good old days"...

So the roads are much better now?

And I think your memory serves you wrong. When the streets were powdery white sand the ground was very porous and the water would not puddle any at all on the land. And there were no "lakes of mud".

Those started when the heavy equipment (to build those mega-buildings) started rolling over the beautiful powdery roads crushing and packing the sand into a non-porous clay-like texture.

Have the eye infections and the breathing problems from the dust stopped now? Inquiring minds would like to know.

the dust problems are much improved...and getting better as more streets are paved.
I don't have any memory problems...and many others on here can attest to the mud and dust problems back before any major development.
The "powdery white sand" was only on the beach where it was (and is) raked daily.

On Nantucket, we have a landbank fee. It is designated to buy open space but could be used for anything that voters want. 1% of every property sale goes to the Landbank. There is a board that makes decisions on what property to buy that is independent of the town council . New home buyers are exempted from paying it. I suppose there could be an impact fee from sales that goes into a security account to be used to pay officers.

Thanks Wendy, I don't know what happened to me thinking I should abandon my conservative principles being against taxes and bigger goverment and offer to contribute more to help make the community a better place for all if that is what is needed.

You are right. I should keep my mouth shut, hope someone else pays and not give a shit if the place I live part of the year goes to hell. That way I don't have to take your abuse and don't have to worry about being part of the solution.

And by the way, I would prefer it was like when I first came here 40 years ago before you Belizeans decided tourism and development was your savior.

It is a welcome change to hear you tell me, a non-Belizean, that you do not need any more of my money. Or did I not understand you. Maybe you were saying "give me more of your money, but do not ask me or anyone that is a Belizean to help pay for services needed in the community". Just have taxes that are only paid by developers or tourists.

Well, There have been about 10,000 words, a lot of complaining, the council has been called incompetant, the GOB has been blamed for having a "black hole" of moneys, some have made suggestions about increasing local taxes, and most have said the government, both local and national lacks planning.
I guess I don't disagree with most of the discussion but have only one question to ask;; Since it is blatently obvious that the town council is insufficiently "staffed" to cope with this problem and needs advisors, clerks, typests and councelling, who among the locals and expats are willing to fill these positions.???? The Ugly American Tourist

Sign Up::: Take your computer, printer and note pad to the mayors office and say; "Let's clean this mess up. You will definately get the attention of the GOB.

Good idea Don, and your avatar looks like a number 4 super shrimp in the vice.

"Amanda responded to my other post, and then blocked the post. So much for the all-knowing Amanda and her blocking of posts addressed to her. I was wanting to reply to something in her response and to my shock and surprise it was blocked. Amazing ting dat."
Auxillou Beach Suites

Amanda posted a topic of discussion in a very formal and professional way, theres nothing "sly" about it, and locked the topic so she could get "real results" not message board bs. Then someone else chose to discuss the topic publicly, most likely because it is a hot topic of many property owners on the caye, there only needs to be one thread about property taxes, thats why your "pointless" other posts were blocked.

I have learned to not call a San Pedrean a Belizean. They have in no uncertain terms told me that Belizean's live on the mainland.
So, keeping in mind that Mr. Blake gave all of the island of Ambergris Caye to San Pedreans how many San Pedreans live in the low cost housing?

Are not these poor area filled with immigrants from other areas of Belize or other countries coming here seeking wages they can not make in their own country? How many of them actually own the building they live in? How many ‘upright’ citizens are making a living off of sub-standard housing? Are not these slumlords the ones who owe the taxes?

Apologies to bywarren whose name should not have been the one to appear on my post. I agree with most of your reasoning, especially the need to find solutions to the pressing problems facing us.

To Casa De Amor 2, if you and Amanda think this thread is nothing but "message board bs" then why are you responding here? You obviously believe your reasoning is more superior, so go kiss ass to Amanda privately. No need to post here.

To ScubaLdy, "immigrants" move to SP for different reasons -- you have your reasons and the mainlander Belizean and/or the Central American immigrant also have their own reasons. Not everyone that moves here moves here to retire. Many people move here specifically for the reason you have said and that is to improve their lot in life. In most cases, most of those that move here to improve their lot in life come from very deprived backgrounds. To sneer at them arrogantly because you have come from a background of plenty and have probably never known an empty belly in your life doesn't mean everybody lives like that. To want to tax others who lived under deprived circumstances because you need paved roads on which to drive your 2008 golf cart and air-conditioning for your mansion is nothing but arrogance. The first thing you should do is humble yourself with the realization that what you consider "normal" are unattainable luxuries to most everyone else. Why should they pay for you to live a lifestyle that they themselves cannot afrord?

And just out of curiousity, if the property taxes of even the slum properties you refer to as slum properties are raised, what will happen to the rent that the renters pay,do you think?

I was not being facetious when I asked that anyone that could afford to pay more taxes try to relieve a little human suffering and help to pay the overdue taxes of someone that can't afford to pay it. Such a gesture would serve two purposes, one is to relieve human suffering just a little bit adn the second would be to increase the tax revenues to the town council, something which some posters have already said they can afford to do.

In the end, though, I think that if you rely on elected officials to solve your problems that you will continue to be disappointed. That is not to say that there are not capable people at the helm, just that our system of governance does nor promote the best and the brightest. It just promotes the most loyal.

Best bet to solve issues is privately -- maybe through a trust fund funded through donations and administered by capable people chosen from amongst yourselves. That is the best way to ensure that your goals and ambitions as a group are met.

OK, in a effort to try and get this back on more of a discussion on ways to solve our problems as opposed to picking on one another, let me make one last try at justifying the one suggestion I offered. Keep in mind I throw this out as just a suggestion hoping to get more thought started and other suggestions that might be even more relevant. It was not meant to start a war of words between people who I believe all want genuinely to find ways to make the community a better place for all.

My reasoning for using property tax comes from my experience with other properties I own that uses property tax to fund municipal needs. I do not know of any tax that is “fair” to all. Some pay more and some pay less and some receive more and some receive less.

Do not assume just because I feel that the few hundred dollars I pay means that all property taxes should be raised. There are ways to assess the tax that can make it more equitable - like homestead exemptions and other credits for those deserving. Again, I am only relating to my other experiences with property and funding needs. If I look at what I pay for other properties, what I pay here is extremely less and I find it hard for me to be critical of what I receive based on what I am paying.

Now granted, when I talk about increasing taxes, I catch all kinds of hell from some of my friends in business who feel they are taxed too much. And being conservative in my politics, even the talk of raising taxes makes me wonder what I am saying.

Yes, the logical approach is to look at all taxes that are now collected and see if that is enough money to fund the needs - assuming also, the BIG assumption, that they are spent efficiently by government. Some of you believe this is the case. If that is true, then the efforts need to be directed towards a more efficient use of the monies. If not, then other funds are needed and thus my willingness to pay more in property tax as one possible solution. Even us conservatives must be willing to be taxed more if it is needed and if it is proportioned as equitable as possible understanding the difficulty in achieving what is equitable to all.

The worse possible outcome is to have our quality of life deteriorate beyond repair for lack of funding. And I am reluctant to end this on a negative note, but we face some serious concerns that could do just that if solutions are not found. Then we would all have good reason to pick on one another.

Again, bywarren, your response assumes that the answer to the vexing problems is funding. I don't see it that way.

I, personally, would object loudly to any increase in property tax liabilities. Even if you increase property taxes, and then temper the increase with a homestead exemption of some sort, it does not change the fact that someone's tax liability has increased, and that can never be a good thing for poor people who are already struggling, which there are exponentially MANY more of in Belize than there are rich retirees.

And, yes, I said "in Belize" not "in San Pedro", because inevitably whatever becomes policy in SP (or anywhere else in the county, for that matter) sets policy for the entire country. Under our system of laws, what becomes "precedent" somewhere sets the stage for it to be copied elsewhere. And I don't think an increase in property taxes is something the majority of Belizeans can afford. You would be throwing out the baby with the bath water going that route, because the less people have the angrier they get. There are many more other imaginative ways to get funding than raising taxes, believe me.

In regards to security issues, the first step I would take is as was suggested before -- hire private security (either as a group of private individuals or even as a municipality). This would at least act as a deterrent until other remedies can be put in place.

Another step would be to start a lobby to have those draconian gun laws changed into something that is more favorable to private gun ownership. The reason predators get away with so much is because individuals have a hard time arming/defending themselves, and the predators know this. The laws of Belize as they are written state pretty much that if you are found with a gun in your possession or on your premises, and you cannot prove legal ownership of it, then you are considered guilty until proven innocent. Yet, the armed robber is considered innocent until proven guilty. Go figure. If you are an innocent visitor in a home where your host has a gun stored somewhere, but he/she cannot find the license for it when he/she is raided by the police (while you are innocently in the home), even though you did not know about it, you are still hauled off because you are still guilty until proven innocent. And the law also states that the police can raid any establishment without a warrant if they are looking for guns and/or drugs. So, if your neighbor who doesn't like you (or Gawd forbid -- the predator who wants to ensure you are disarmed before he attacks you) makes a malicious call to the cops indicating merely a suspicion of a gun in your place, your life can become hell. With all these draconian laws on our books, you can see why we, the average citizen, will continue to be victims. We are all too scared to defend ourselves for obvious reasons.

At least when you hire private security, gun-issue liabilities revert to the security firm and not to you individually. Hence, my suggestion that you go that route first.

As to the police, they are usually well meaning but they are limited by their circumstances (understaffed, underfunded, underpaid, etc.). I really believe they do the best they can under the circumstances. They just operate under dire circumstances and there seems to be a lack of political will to change those circumstances. Even with any extra funding you provide, it is highly unlikely their circumstances will change, because the command does not report directly to your municipal body, it reports to Belmopan. And there is clearly a disconnect between GoB's needs and SP's needs. (Or any private individual's needs, or they would have done more to halt crime before it spread this far in the first instance.)

Which is why I recommend, again, that you as a citizens group go about providing security privately. That way you are in the driver's seat.

Many good points again. But you start out by saying the assumption of lack of funds is false. This is refering to the crime issue that started this whole discussion. But then you say:
"As to the police, they are usually well meaning but they are limited by their circumstances (understaffed, underfunded, underpaid, etc."

Which I agree with and seems to be a funding issue. Sure, you can circumvent the issue with private security. But one of, if not the primary responsibility of government is protection of the public.

It would seem to me the logic would be to make sure the existing system could be "fixed" to solve the problem before creating another system. We are in more trouble than we realize if government cannot perform its responsibilities.

PS: Either way you are talking about additional needed funds. Private security comes with a cost. Thus the need for revenue. I would be interested in your other ways of generating that.

"To Casa De Amor 2, if you and Amanda think this thread is nothing but "message board bs" then why are you responding here? You obviously believe your reasoning is more superior, so go kiss ass to Amanda privately. No need to post here."
Auxillou Beach Suites -

I felt there was a need to respond to all the bs you wrote in the other threads. It says your on caye caulker...... let us worry about our own problems on AC, and you do the same on CC. then we can all be friends

CDA 2, Ease up.

It cracks me up, and also saddens me when a well intentioned person here posts an idea for island improvement and then gets berated by locals, or others on this board.

Amanda, and others, are trying to protect our little piece of heaven and keep it pristine for years to come. Thank you for caring. Count me in to help in any way.

I have visited with the Mayoress on numerous occaisions to discuss such things as public safety and education. I have donated FAR more to San Pedro than I ever have here in my own community. So have a LOT of other folks here that have given their hard earned dollars, blood, sweat and tears to various island projects.

When does a country get it's act together? I asked Rosalie Staines, host of the weekly "Oapn Paki" show once if the politicians ever get emberrased always needing "handouts" to run Belize. Do they ever think about swiping less and taking more pride in running things efficiently? It was an interesting conversation. Now that is another thread entirely for another day. I only hope the UDP is doing a much better job now.

San Pedro has one thing going for it that not many others worldwide have;
There are tourists and residents that care about it's welfare and her people tremendously.
But where do you draw the line. Many of us have donated for a police presence in the North end of the island. We have given to the schools and the library.
Where does charity replace a sound town council and GOB budget?
To keep a safe San Pedro, why in the world would you need to hire a private police force. And why should I have to pay for it as a visitor to the island other than through a hotel tax? I don't see Maui asking for money.

San Pedro is facing the same growing pains many communities world wideare facing, crime, education, traffic, population growth etc and all with a small budget to keep up.

Many Belizeans and San Pedranans don't like the "Ugly American" coming to town to try and change things. But how do you want it? Some outside perspective and help, or status quo? There was a thread here a while back where a US doctor wanted to be licensed to practice in Belize to help treat ill children. You would have thought he was coming down to start a gun dealership the way he was treated by some here. I have spent a lot of time at Ambergris Hope Clinic with Dr. Dan and Dr. Tina, and they sure could use some help. How does Belize want it? Sometimes I think the visitors to Belize love the country more than the people running it. Not every person moving there wants to make millions and then run.

Not every person from another country that buys a home or condo on Ambergris Caye is wealthy and owns a mansion. There is a way to set up a simple tax structure to even it all out. It will just take a lot of work to do so. But on the flip side of that. If I buy a house in San Pedro and pay $1,500usd per year for taxes, does my power go out, do the police never respond and does the fire dept. show up with more than Chief Garcia?

No one wants to see San Pedro go to hell in a handbasket so thanks to everyone there trying to improve our favorite place on earth.

Rant over.

Future San Pedro resident.

"But one of, if not the primary responsibility of government is protection of the public." -- bywarren

Ideally, that SHOULD be the mandate, but with out-of-control crime on the mainland (and spreading), it should be obvious that it is not.

1. Are there any crack houses on SP that you know of?

2. If so, when was the last time it/they was/were raided by police?

Oh, one more question for braata -- Why do you think that is?



"It would seem to me the logic would be to make sure the existing system could be "fixed" to solve the problem before creating another system. We are in more trouble than we realize if government cannot perform its responsibilities."

-- bywarren


The main reason I don't see additional funding as an answer, and this is only my personal opinion, mind you, is that I personally believe that any extra funding you provide to the SP police department will result in that same exact amount deducted shortly thereafter from the GoB budget. Of course, this is only my personal opinion and my two cents worth. But, no, to my mind it doesn't matter how much you whip SP residents on the back to ENSURE they cough up more, there will be no extra benefit to your municipality as a result of it, unless other things change, particularly control of the force.

One another note, one thing which I think could produce some great results in the short term if it were legally allowed would be to increa$e incentive$ for those policemen who excel at their jobs. When our kids do great in school we reward them with money, a laptop, an iPod, whatever, but how does a great Belizean cop get rewarded for a job well done? A plaque? His/her children cannot eat that.

I believe monetary incentives can be great incentives. And goodness knows our policemen could use them. When was the last time you looked at a policeman's pay stub? The problem, though, is still that the GoB controls the police and the paymaster, not the municipality and not the citizens group. And so, if you, Joe Citizen, tries to reward a particular policeman for a job well done, you will end up in jail accused of "bribing" that police man.

Which brings me back again to the suggestion that a private security force which you can control is the best answer.

Wendy, I just sent you an email just to show we are not always thinking differently. By

"It cracks me up, and also saddens me when a well intentioned person here posts an idea for island improvement and then gets berated by locals, or others on this board." -- reaper

Dear reaper and Casa whoever:

It also cracks me up and also saddens me when an arrogant jane-come-lately with a superiority complex comes to a foreign country assuming she knows it all. It really saddens me that people who sincerely believe themselves "educated" could be so ignorant, no matter how well intentioned and God-like they might want to believe themselves to be.

OK, I usually enjoy a good fight - mostly with words at my current age, but this is getting too down and dirty and off subject for me. I'm out of here.

And this brings a closing to the entertainment portion of this discussion.

Anybody that is seriously interested in the original question please refer to the poll questionnaire and email it directly to <sptaxpoll@gmail.com>

Wendy: You should attend this very important meeting here tonight:
Special Community Meeting
TONIGHT
Monday, July 21, 7pm
at the High School Auditorium.
This meeting is being held due to the recent problems with crime that have been
occurring in San Pedro and on Ambergris Caye.
The following people will be
at this community meeting:
Minister Manuel Heredia
General Lloyd Tillet, CEO Ministry of National Security
Lt. Colonel Omar Pullido
Commissioner of Police
Deputy Commissioner of Police
Commander of the Coast Guard.
It is important that as many people
as possible attend this meeting.

You could express your opinions directly in front of the community...they'd be sure to listen...

Amanda, I'm out of here too. Too Bad. It is obvious that there are those who have ABSOLUTELY NO INTENTION of participating in developing a solution to a HORIFIC problem, but find a "I'm a lot Smarter Than You" dialog to be their daily pleasure fix. I salute you for your efforts and hope that you will be successful in gathering and directing a group of volunteers who will offer to assist the Mayor with the development of a plan to make AC an independant city state from the mainland. IMHO, If this were to occur great things will develop. If not, please ask the mayor if tourists will be able to apply for a "permit to carry". The Ugly American Tourist.

You have my permission to carry a belikin or a mojito - but not both at the same time!

AMANDA - DON - JESSE - ET AL
Here is a copy of the message I just sent to everyone on the North Ambergris Caye Neighborhood watch e-mail list. I thought I would share it with you.

I beg everyone to attend tonight’s meeting. I attended the meetings on the 8th & 10th and was impressed with the quality of the input from the attendees.

HOWEVER – I have yet to see a list of those recommendations or any action taken on them. It is time that demands be made for actions.

After the last meeting I talked to OC Arnold and suggested a program whereby volunteers assisted the police and freed them up for more active police work. I would be willing to organize an auxiliary of 14 people; each person signing up for l/2 day. i.e. if I signed up for Monday morning I would be there every Monday morning, etc. I BELIVE THERE ARE THOSE OF YOU WHO WOULD SIGN UP FOR THIS SENSITIVE DUTY.

The sole function would be to take police reports. This volunteer force would arrive at the station with laptop computers containing a boiler plate form of questions to be asked. After finishing the intake a printout would be made and the person filing the complaint as well as the interview would sign it.

When I went in to file a missing persons report it took over one hour for the woman police officer to write out less than one page. People like you and me could do this in no more than 15 minutes.

OC Arnold said he would consider it and call me on Monday. I have not heard from him. I have pondered why they would be reluctant to accept this FREE help (just as they have rejected the constable program) and can only conclude that they would consider us spies. And yes, we would be a set of eyes seeing what goes on there. We have a right to know what goes on there and if they truly want to clean up the department they should welcome our support.

I will be there tonight and I will bring this up in open forum – not on the side as I did last time.

"I salute you for your efforts and hope that you will be successful in gathering and directing a group of volunteers who will offer to assist the Mayor with the development of a plan to make AC an independant city state from the mainland." -- Don Griefe

My comment:

Or, you can always move to Florida. Properties there are now going for half price thanks to the superior intelligence of the all-knowing.

And ScubaLdy, perhaps your FREE help comes at a steep price some people are just not willing to pay. Ever considered that?

Jesse, thanks for the invite. Sincerely.

See you there

I sent this to you via email but since you have posted here:

I disagree with the "spy" theory. We all need to realize that even though many of us would like to volunteer there are laws that must be adhered to. We need to realize that much of the information given and collected at the police station is sensitive and even potentially harmful.

Special constable training will help educate the volunteers.

Although it is extremely frustrating and painstakingly slow giving reports to the police, this is the method proscribed by law that must be followed.

I would imagine that Mr Arnold must confer with Police Headquarters and the legal department before he can accept volunteer help behind the desk of the police station. Who knows what type of civil rights could be affected or liability issues might be brought up by such actions.


And in addition - I served as the first female special constable back in the early 1990's and as the Chairperson of the Ambergris Caye Traffic Control Committee for a long three year stint - and one thing I realized along the way is that no matter how good your intentions are, the laws can often hinder your good will actions. Learning to work within the system is a fine art and the results are not always ideal.

Politics are politics are politics. Jobs are jobs are jobs. Politics are jobs and jobs are politics.

WOW Amanda – “Spy?” LOL What a problem we have in communicating – and we supposedly speak the same language.

I’m sure there is all kinds of red tape to make anything happen but why can’t we start moving into solutions – even if they are difficult – instead of beating our chest over the same old problems?

Tonight will be the 3rd meeting this month!

"Or, you can always move to Florida. Properties there are now going for half price thanks to the superior intelligence of the all-knowing."

ABS, where are these 1/2 price Florida properties? Please give us a list!

Thanks
Thomas Blackledge
(future gun dealer on the island)

Amanda, first off, I would like to apologize to you if I in any way offended you. A property tax issue is something that has ramifications countrywide, not just for San Pedranos. I will be honest in saying that it offended me to see your post implying that you and your group would be lobbying for higher property taxes because such a thing goes on to affect every Belizean down the road, not just San Pedro residents. It further offended me when your post was blocked to responses, implying censorship of the masses and a lack of transparency.

After perusing more closely some of the other threads that you have replied to, I realize now that you really are well meaning and sincerely want to help. I don't believe posing a public question and then blocking off responses is/was the way to go, but I am grateful that you do care. Sincerely.

That said, we need to be aware that the Belize Police Department is a NATIONAL police department, not a local municipal one. It is the equivalent of the FBI in the U.S. In the U.S., you don't call the FBI to resolve a local police issue. You call the local policeman who is paid by the local municipality the chief which is elected by that municipality's citizens. Therefore the entire police force is accountable to the residents of the municipality in which they serve.

The BZPD chief, on the other hand, is not elected. He is appointed by the Minister. Therefore, the NATIONAL Belize Police Chief is not accountable specifically to the citizens of San Pedro as he would be if he were elected/put there by the people of San Pedro. He is answerable to the pols at the Belmopan level, technicalities aside. Therefore, his accountability, although we may want it to be to the citizens, is really to his master. Chances are very high that on a daily basis the police minister who is sitting in his office in Belmopan has no idea what is happening in San Pedro. We can sugar coat this anyway we like but this is the situation in little Belize.

I would humbly suggest again that every effort be made to have the first of its kind municipal police department (private security), by and for the people of that municipality, be incorporated in SP. Ambergris Caye is a community of trend setters. There is no reason why it can't be done. And you would be 100% assured that your security force would be working with you to help you achieve your goals. Go one step further and ask for it to be funded by a portion of the hotel tax. Security on SP is a tourism issue and the BTB can/should help to pay for it. The good part is that the hotel tax does not go into that black hole called the Consolidated Revenue Fund run by the GoB. It goes into another hole called BTB projects.

The new CEO in the Ministry of Tourism is a fine young man by the name of Michael Singh. He is a business man, himself the owner of a tourism business on SP. I am sure he would be as interested as you to find a solution. Mr. Singh's email address is mike@belizetourism.org.

Otherwise, I believe that you will continue to find yourselves frustrated, as many others of us in Belize are, as a result of what will continue to be purely band aid solutions. There is clearly no will in Belmopan to do anything about crime. Decades have proved this. We can also sugar coat this as much as we like.

Belize-N-Us, they are all over Florida (and actually, all over the U.S.) but the majority of them in Florida are in the Cape Coral area. Two for one right now is what I hear. You can get a full list at the Remax website (or any other real estate site).

How much does it cost to build and operate a school system that makes attendance mandetory for all kids?
How much does it cost to staff a first class police department and build and operate a jail and municipal court?
How much does it cost to build a one mile long road north of the bridge?
How much does it cost to maintain the sanitation water, power and port systems?
How much does it cost to staff a fully operational taxing authority for a city?
Just do the arithmetic and subtract the current city income. Needs-Current income=Tax increase.

Please not that I did not include and funding or facilities for health care. If you want to know why just ask. The Ugly American Tourist

Please everyone come out and show your support! There is a lot we can do,don't give up, STEP UP.
We need to spend our time looking for solutions not bashing.
Special Community Meeting
TONIGHT
Monday, July 21, 7pm
at the High School Auditorium.
This meeting is being held due to the recent problems with crime that have been
occurring in San Pedro and on Ambergris Caye.
The following people will be
at this community meeting:
Minister Manuel Heredia
General Lloyd Tillet, CEO Ministry of National Security
Lt. Colonel Omar Pullido
Commissioner of Police
Deputy Commissioner of Police
Commander of the Coast Guard.
It is important that as many people
as possible attend this meeting.

Thanks, Tim. What exactly do you hope to accomplish at this meeting? Do you have some specific goals in mind? What are they? If you can list them here it would be fabulous. Otherwise, I am afraid the meeting will just be another mishmash of words.

In order to accomplish goals, you have to be able to articulate what those goals are. Just asking for "crime reduction" is not a well articulated goal. What is it you would like for SP? 30 more policemen? Six police vehicles? What?

Hi Scubaldy here is a portion of the email that you sent to me and also posted on this thread

"and can only conclude that they would consider us spies"

spies is the plural of the word spy.

I was commenting on a message you sent to me.

Wendy
That was quick, I don't have as much time as you, but; I will give you a idea. Get the community together and share ideas, No Bashing.We will exchange information and contact info., so that; we can get one more step closer. I won't get into any details,you will just break them down and try ruin all our efforts.I thought you were more about community? I have no desire to play your game. I will be there tonight and we will make a difference.
You are not very inspiring? Am I next on your bash list?
Never mind I don't care to know. Have a Nice Day

Good responce, Tim.

Ernie

Actually, Tim, I don't have a "Bash List".

I don't like cultural ignorance displayed in the form of cultural arrogance. As a local, it repulses me.

That divide and conquer "we first world foreigners = smart, dem dumb locals = dumb" mentality displayed by some on this board is intolerable.

I don't find that level of discussion inspiring either, so that's one thing we have in common.

And I don't like censorship and I don't like secrecy on matters that affect me and mine.

Pretty much, that's it.

Other than that, we have the same goals at heart, I am sure.

Please everyone come out and show your support! There is a lot we can do,don't give up, STEP UP.
We need to spend our time looking for solutions not bashing.
Special Community Meeting
TONIGHT
Monday, July 21, 7pm
at the High School Auditorium.
This meeting is being held due to the recent problems with crime that have been
occurring in San Pedro and on Ambergris Caye.
The following people will be
at this community meeting:
Minister Manuel Heredia
General Lloyd Tillet, CEO Ministry of National Security
Lt. Colonel Omar Pullido
Commissioner of Police
Deputy Commissioner of Police
Commander of the Coast Guard.
It is important that as many people
as possible attend this meeting.

Wendy, If you have a problem with Amanda why don't you just call her and discuss it like grown ups.
If you have a problem with others then just PM them and hash it out.
You are biting the hands that feed you by talking down to the people on this forum, many of whom give massive amounts of money, time and effort to the many needy causes in San Pedro.
You are also contradicting yourself here. First you want people to get involved and then you demean their offers of help and level of involvement because it doesn't conform to your agenda. Again, which way do you want it?
No one is in secrecy or censoring you here.
You are being offensive to the MANY people here that generously donate their resources to Belize.
"we first world foreigners=smart,dem dum locals =dumb" Hmmm, aren't those your customers????? Nice...

Apparently Wendy is a lot more "local" than the rest of us.
I'm looking forward to hearing Wendy speak up at the meeting tonight.
Big crowd coming to hear...

" "we first world foreigners = smart, dem dumb locals = dumb" mentality displayed by some on this board is intolerable. "

Wendy, I haven't seen anyone here call any locals dumb. One exception would be the girl who posed for a photo while sitting on a 15' or more croc and encourging others to come out and do the same.

Why are you offended by "first world foreigners" that are simply making suggestions on ways to reduce crime and have more public services? Many of these "foreigners" live there, have lived there for years and many more will live there in the future myself included.

I just don't understand the hostility toward others that clearly just want to help improve the quality of life for ALL those on the island.

You may think the island was better off 20 years ago. Maybe it was for some, not so for others. What the island WAS like really doesn't matter at this point. How it is now and how it's going to be in the years to come are what matter now.

Like it or not progress and development are comming. New problems will come with them. How to address the new problems should be the focus not complaining about the new developments which will not stop.

"You are biting the hands that feed you by talking down to the people on this forum..." -- reaper

Comments like this I find incredible offensive to my psyche. The implication here is that if it weren't for the smart transplanted foreigners the dumb Belizeans would not eat. For the record, Belizeans were eating long before tourism became sexy and they will continue to eat even if it happens to die off at any future point. Belize is rich with fertile land and a small population, ensuring everybody can have enough to plant something to eat on.

That said, I have nothing against controlled eco-tourism or tourists, or foreign residents, or even anonymous posters who insult my dignity or intelligence behind the safety of their anonymity. I find the offense offensive, but I separate it from the person.

For some of us locals, no money in the world can pay for our dignity. And that is what reaper is indicating we should do, sell our dignity for $$. I am sorry but this is a glaring display of cultural arrogance on the part of the poster. It would be very demeaning to any Belizean that read it. And I, for one, am offended by it.

So Belize-N-Us, the posters do not have to say the word "dumb" to refer to local Belizeans as dumb. They just say it in crafty and cute little ways. But it is no less offensive.

Just as offensive as the idea of raising the property taxes of poor people to pay for a paved road on N. Side Ambergris (a suggestion made by another poster a few posts up) so rich retirees can get to their mansions and beachfront condos. It ain't right, no matter how you skin it. And no offense meant to anyone. I am just looking out for me and mine.

??? What???

No Wendy, I am reffering to insulting your prospective customers at your hotel. You know,the smart foreigners.
It had nothing to do with Belizeans eating nor selling your dignity for dollars.
And believe it or not, most of the posters here are looking out for you and yours also...

Im looking out for her alright.

Reaper, with all due respect, I appreciate your concern for what it is -- well-intentioned -- and we'll just leave it at that. Suffice to say I've made it this far in life and I am sure I will continue to make it come what may.

Have a great day, y'all!

Please everyone come out and show your support! There is a lot we can do,don't give up, STEP UP.
We need to spend our time looking for solutions not bashing.
Special Community Meeting
TONIGHT
Monday, July 21, 7pm
at the High School Auditorium.
This meeting is being held due to the recent problems with crime that have been
occurring in San Pedro and on Ambergris Caye.
The following people will be
at this community meeting:
Minister Manuel Heredia
General Lloyd Tillet, CEO Ministry of National Security
Lt. Colonel Omar Pullido
Commissioner of Police
Deputy Commissioner of Police
Commander of the Coast Guard.
It is important that as many people
as possible attend this meeting.

WENDY:
I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt as I see you have worked yourself up.
When you assume you know me or my background you are making a big mistake.

I was the oldest of six children and immediately after WWII my parents had to work in the fields to feed us. We lived in a tent and at 9 years old I had complete care of my five brothers and sisters. We were hungry a lot of the time. We live in a lot of one room or one bedroom houses – none had indoor plumbing. The advantage I had was a free education!!!

In high school I lived with a wealthy family as a domestic. These wonderful people taught me that I could go far with hard work, dedication and honesty. I did – paying into the USA Social Security system for 43 years.

I worked hard, got a college education at night and raised two children as a single parent. I took risks and advanced to be the manager of a large department (65 staff in 11 locations one being 24/7). I earned every cent of my retirement!!! I’m retired but not dead and care about this, my adopted country and MOST of the people who live here.

I moved to Belize – completely – I did not leave a door open to return to the US. I am totally committed to this community and have offered the skills I have to those who could use them, if they would.

I have taken some Belizean’s under my wing and helped them get a start in a business for themselves. I’ve spent much time socializing with them and mentoring. They know my background and I tell them “If I could do it so can you.” I believe in a helping hand – not a hand out.

I do not live in a mansion but I do have a beautiful condo that I deserve. Those of us who live on the north have fought the bridge and paved roads. It is the San Pedreans who want to “Build a highway so we can drive to Mexico.” The Mayoress has a plan to dredge and fill along the lagoon side of the north in order to create this.

So, dear Wendy, use caution when accusing people you don’t know. You may be surprised to find, if we sat down for a visit we want the same end result.

Is Corona Steve the Mayoress' consultant? Freeway to Mexico.
How about an update on the meeting. Thanks.

Tax Administration of the Caribbean meet in Belize
There is more talk about taxes tonight coming close on the heels last week’s budget presentation, and that is because the 20th General Assembly of the Caribbean Organization of Tax Administrators (COTA) convenes in Belize this week for a four day conference. Belize and sixteen other Caribbean countries are sharing ideas on how to develop systems to improve and modernize tax administration locally and regionally.

Are we ahead of our time here on the message board or what?

That's liberal math for you.

This bit by Amanda rings true to a great extent - but I still oppose raising any taxes at all unless and until our Central AND Local governments can show a good performance at managing money. Those of us who live here have seen plenty of unjust enrichment and by my guesstimates there was sufficient $ for some infrastructure that went into personal projects like houses in Miami and who knows what.

I totally agree that SP is not getting it's share of the tax dollars - a reassessment of what is really coming in and what is needed for proper governance is the first step - after that you can assess the best and fair way to raise the money.
I just don't think we volunteer to pay more at a time when we are already not getting our share - first transparent assignment of resources and then revision of revenue sources.

OK, Diane: it took you, a California-transplant-liberal, child of the 60's, to bring me back to my conservative principles. That being that private individuals can do better for themselves than government can. I knew there was something I really liked about you, besides being Bob's lovely wife.

So how about we expand on what some others did in the past, mostly business people along with a few of us private individuals, that formed a fund to help pay for additional police needs like helping to fund the cost of bringing out the BDF.

Expand on that. It could be called Concerned Citizens for Crime Control, a.k.a. 4C’s.
The stated principle would be “4Cing” better crime control. Have a board of directors chosen from RESPECTED members of the community - that is important because it keeps me from having to serve. Stated objectives on how the money would be spent and periodic reporting back to donors the spending. Projects like additional equipment for the police, better living conditions for them, cash rewards for information leading to arrests, etc, anything that the police might need that they are not now getting.

Go to not only businesses, I agree they are paying more than their fair share now, but also to owners like me of condos and homes of hundreds of thousand dollar values and ask for a few hundred dollars donated annually to the fund. Anyone like that who would not cough up a couple extra hundred dollars - the same costs as a couple dinners out - I could have a lot of fun embarrassing.

Do the math. We're talking serious money. Just at Banyan Bay, only one condo development, there are 38 units. At just $300 each that is $11400US. If I donated the $300, I would still be paying along with the tax I now pay, less than 10% of what I pay on like valued properties I own elsewhere.

It is past time to keep talking about how things should be and make something happen. Doing something like this can have immediate results - correcting the “system” might take some time - more time than we might have.

This is the type of talk I like to hear.

"... private individuals can do better for themselves than government can." == bywarren

That, sir, was the gist of my argument, hence the reason I continue to suggest that you look for relief instead in community controlled private security.

Oh, and Diane, I agree 100000000000% with your post.

Yes, thank you I am now realizing that most of my problems will be solved if only I learn to listen more to the opposite sex.

Now let's see how the private sector is willing to reach into their pockets without being forced to by government.

Gee...I thought this would really be a forum to discuss taxes and amenities but it turns out it is just a forum for bywarren, Auxillou and sometimes Scubalady to hash out their political and socialogical differences. Nice going board...

PS..I own two condos there since 2001. Think I might retire elswhere.

Also...my name is Wendy and I do not want to be confused with the Wendy prominently displayed on this thread.

Sorry Wendy spdreamer - I got a little carried away. Don't give up on us - our hearts - if not our minds are in the right place. Read between the lines - we love it here.

OK, to get more back on track - would you be willing to contribute annually to fund like I am talking about, And if so, how much?

spdreamer, may I suggest Florida to you? Properties there are currently selling at half price. I, too, would not want to be confused with you.

bywarren, private citizens balk at paying more taxes to the government for the simple fact that it goes into a bottomless black hole. I, personally, don't have the same reservations about contributing to a privately managed fund managed by people I TRUST. I am sure many others feel the same way. And that is the major difference between paying "your" fair share of "private" taxes v public taxes. It's the TRUST factor that makes the difference.

I would only be willing to contribute to taxes or their equivalent in Belize if a complete audit and attempt to collect back taxes were in place. However, there have been individuals on the island I actually have given money to for their taxes in hopes they would stave off forclosure (extra tips, medicine for the kids..whatever). What really needs to happen is a revision of the whole system...I pay too little as a percentage of income and just plain flat out...However, I paid too much when We bought the property to begin with.

We thought the low property taxes were a result of frequent foreign investment taxes and the money WAS GOING TO SAN PEDRO.

Now What...what about the 32 thousand we gave the government already?

They can't produce infrastructure with that?

Multiply that times the number of condos sold.

Add on the VAT while we are actually there twice a year and tell me we don't pay our fair share of taxes to BZ...We don't pay our fair share to Ambergris Caye...but we have paid at least 7-8 years worth of property taxes already..

We may be due now..to pay more

Wendy from WI

My last post was for spdreamer, not you Wendy.

bywarren...

I am terribly sorry but spdreamer is also named Wendy but not the Wendy to which I think you refer.

I do not reside on Caye Caulker. I reside in Wisconsin US.

I do not agree with Aux...whatever's position. She is way too liberal. Do not confuse us.

The Other Wend7y

Ok, so we all agree that what we pay to the government should be sufficient to provide all we need. But agree we are not getting what we need. So do we keep complaining about how the "system" is not working, or do we find other solutions?

I am only trying to find solutions by discussing ideas. What is dishearting to me is the amount of discussion on any idea brought up why it won't work as opposed to how it could work.

PS: so I ask you Wendy from Wisc. how much would you be willing to contribute to a private fund purpose of which to help with crime?

bywarren..

Why something "won't work" is apparently an inherant part of our education system. First of all...US managers have been "thinking outside the box" so long they don't even want to hear the phrase. For a start, we are talking about an entire country with the population of Eau Claire or Wausau Wisconsin..they don't even manage Madison or Milwaukee...

There are more Belizeans living in Los Angeles than in Belize.

What do Belizeans know about other governmental models? They have the Brits (that is what they are based on) and the other Central American Countries that surround them.

They are doing well on the current tourism model but high oil prices and therefore, airfare is an issue.

Non-resident owners are the most likely target to support the infrastructure but...we have already paid a ridiculous tax to aquire the property in the first place.

How? How do we..non-resident property owners..make them understand that the tax structure needs to be re-vamped when we have no vots?

OK, what we paid in the past for taxes, transfer fees, etc. is the past. Do you feel what you now pay annually in property taxes on your condos is sufficient to provide the services needed?

Apologies, bywarren.

I edited my original post that was here and replaced it with this because I can understand your frustration at having a serious discussion for which you are seeking serious solutions be constantly hijacked.

Once again, this is going the wrong direction for me. I am out of here.

Once again I have decided to simply "lurk" on these boards and look up my friends and such when I get to BZ...

I am not arrogant..and I really was trying to participate...I will find some other way.

and...bywarren..you have not been here under that name for long so...I will wait til you go away.

spdreamer, you are not only arrogant but also ignorant. bywarren has been on this island for at least 30 years, has contributed to more causes, efforts, charities than I can name. His reputation is flawless. He has always looked for positive solutions and ways to do things rather than say "it cant be done". Pull your head out before you sit down and break your neck.

Ernie Brannon

"Outed" again by my friend Ernie who is 90% accurate. Your only inaccuracies are it is 40yrs not 30 - you would think my age would get me a little sympathy - and the use of the word "flawless".

PS: If spdreamer wasn't a woman I would suggest she is in need of a "blanket". Semper Fi
What do you think Ernie?

HA! A blanket beach party seems to be in order, man or woman, I aint choosy. Semper Fi Brother !

I said 30 out of respect, didnt wish to make you sound so old.

Well, I slept on it, had coffee this morning and exercised, but I found out I am no good at turning the other cheek.

Spdreamer, you are the epitome of what give “gringos” a bad name. You come to another country, buy property that cost more that the average Belizean makes in a lifetime, complain about the transfer tax you paid which you were fully aware of when you purchased, condescendingly tell Belizeans they no nothing about running their country, critizes others when they are trying to find solutions, do not offer to say how much you would be willing to pay, if anything, more than the small amount of property tax you pay and only offer to help if the “system” is completely corrected to your satisfaction.

Your are an embarrassment to the rest of us gringos and it is not often that I am in agreement with Wendy Auxillou about telling some of us to get the hell out of the country, but I would not miss you and I would doubt there are not many Belizeans who do not feel the same.

Have a nice day.

Everybody pays the stamp duty/transfer of title tax. It is based on a percentage of the cost that you paid for your property. Whether the amount is considered ridiculous or not please don't make the mistake of thinking it is a "gringo" foreigner only fee. Belizeans pay the stamp duty/transfer tax based on the same percentage rate as non-Belizeans. This fee is paid in to the central government coffers, not locally.

The national budget is under discussion right now. It makes for interesting reading.