Well, perhaps sometimes

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew...ng-to-boys.html

Point of interest - nowhere in this story is there a mention of Islam.

FYI

"But while it is true that most such killings are carried out in conservative Muslim communities, the practice is linked more to the customs of this region of Turkey, than to religious belief. The family will try to pretend that she never existed."

I agree with Amanda, we must be carful with what brush we paint our picture with.

THESE PEOPLE ARE SICK MOTHER F**KERS..AND SHOULD BE BOILED IN OIL.. YOU HAVE TO BE ONE SICK PERSON TO KILL YOUR CHILD ..

True Amanda, but these things only seem to happen in Muslim communities. We've had too many "honour" killings in Britain and other European countries, and always associated with the Muslim communities there.

What a load of crap. Up here, a couple of days ago, an Australian woman killed her two small children by drowning them in the bathtub. She was in a custody dispute with her Canadian husband. No Muslim/Islam involvement. It's a sad and sorry state of affairs, that's true. There are many sad and sorry things happening all over the world, acts done by human beings of all religions, non-religions and states of mind or despair. But many portions of this thread are only evidence of ignorance and hate mongering, by those that should know better. It's making me sick.

Many atrocious acts have been committed in the name of Christianity but when someone does something bad these days you don't see people going "ooo they were a Christian, it must be because of their religion”. Small minded people trying to stir the pot is what keeps fanning the fires of mistrust and hatred.

Perhaps a look at the structure of Turkey might clarify things. The country is trying to become a modern secular society to support its application to join the EU, but the vast majority of people there are deeply religious and reject what their government is trying to do. The only mass religion found there is Islam. I haven't found any report of this murder that mentions religion, but this
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/...lf-1655373.html
and this
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/country_profiles/1022222.stm
help to substantiate what I have just said. In addition, I am not aware of any other social structure other than a Muslim/Islamic one that holds "honour killings" to be not just justified but mandated. Sure there are murders in all societies, but "honour killings" are a very special phenomenon associated AFAIK only with Muslim societies.

I am astonished at the inability of some to see what is going on, put it in context, and have a rational discussion about it. This is not remotely a "hate" thread, nor is it attempting to typify Muslims. It is however referring to a trait that is sadly too common in Muslim countries and communities-within-countries, and especially in Turkey.

Interesting read on Wiki..........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killing#Locations

Yes, very interesting. It seems I'm wrong in believing it's only Muslims who are involved, though (if I read the article correctly) they are still the overall majority. Certainly the people involved in this particular case will have been Muslim.

Whatever, the point about these is they're not simply "murders" where the perpetrators know that what they're doing is wrong, but that the perps believe that their actions are justified by whatever social code they live under, which normally stems from religion. It's more related to poor education than to religion, but then again poorly educated people are usually those who hold to religion most strongly.

Certainly been a rash of honor killings here in the Mid -Atlantic States recently................uh.................NOT. Wake up Simon you are living in a fantasy world.
Been a rash of suicide bombers here as well especially those Catholic extremists...........la-dee-da!

Short memory and short-sighted. Apparently, evidence of an advanced education and obvious intellect doesn't preclude one from being an ignorant bigot.

I would prefer ignorant bigot to one detached from reality. At least I can blame it on being stupid....whats your excuse?

Nor does it preclude one from closing their eyes and ignoring reality. Looking at the world through 'rose coloured glasses' has it's drawbacks.
Yes Christianity (and I would assume other religions) has committed atrocious acts but not in this century except for the extreme wealth hoarded by the Vatican so the Pope and his cardinals can live like royality while babies starve.

"Not in this century"? - how about the Christian blokes blowing up abortion clinics? Best to take it one cult at a time - each religion has it's mainstream which is usually pretty benign and generous and kind - each religion has it's fringe which tends to be out of touch with just about everything except their own fervor. Religions for the most part exist as integral parts of existing cultures and political contexts. If you want to control an essentially religious population, the best way is to subvert the religion and use it to appoint yourself as a sort of dictator.
That is not religion, that's politics using religion as a tool.
And IMHO that is what we see being done to the many Islamic people of the world today. There are malevolent and delusional individuals using uneducated and devout people as tools for their own insane goals.
When we demonize a whole population, when refuse to enter into dialogue with them, when we only work in opposition, we eliminate any chance of them seeing that we're not so bad, not so evil and maybe they don't need to kill us after all. Of course we'd have to be nice enough to earn that assessment - being similarly bullheaded and mean is no solution.

I stand corrected Diane. I assume that kind of thing still goes on in the US.

There is a slight difference here. Yes, a few abortion clinics where blown up causing property damage and a few baby killers where assassinated by Christians. The difference is that most Christians condemned this behavior. When a Homicide Bomber blows themselves up along with many innocent men, women and children the Islamic populous go into the streets in celebration. Where is their indignation? Didn’t everyone see the celebrations on TV after the events of 9/11 in the Islamic Countries? That is a far cry from the Christian reaction to violence.

The truth is some Christians are quite bothered by the abortion position forced on them by the court system and once in a while they have taken matters too far. The Islamic Fascist on the other hand hates the way of life of Western Nations. Now how do we fix that to their satisfaction?

You are exactly right, Diane, but what does that have to do with "honour killings"?

Before you accuse people of "demonising whole populations" you have to look at what they profess to believe. I'm sure that many people "adhering to" religions don't know what it is they've signed up for, but that doesn't make those tenets of their religion any less real or binding on them. Islam is notable, more so than either Judaism or Christianity (its bedfellows in monotheism), for being intolerant of other religions and of apostates from their own religion. They believe they are entitled, even obliged, to kill people who don't agree with them. The obligation on every Muslim alive to find and kill Salman Rushdie has never been revoked and indeed according to their system cannot be.

To be specific, I seem to remember (though I haven't checked and could be wrong) that "honour killings" are specifically mandated by part of the belief system held by these people. In my view that makes that belief system intrinsically evil.

Before you say this is just the extremists, that isn't so - the "moderate" Muslims are the bad Muslims, who are disobeying obligations placed on them by their adoption of this religion. In the middle ages some (the politically influential ones) Christians behaved in much the same way, but the fundamental difference was that those people were breaking the tenets of Christianity, not upholding them.

But in any case "religion" typifies a society, and it is usually difficult to disentangle the religion from local social customs. I judge people by their actions and what I believe will be their future actions, not by tenets of a "religion" they probably know nothing about anyway. Whatever goes on in the minds of these parents, whatever they feel "bound" to do, their actions in burying their daughter alive are sufficient to condemn them.

Peter at this point it is fairly obvious where you stand regarding Islam and its followers.

Could you move on to posting something positive?

Please!!!!! Perhaps something related to Belize....

OK Jesse - for the fun of it I'll offer a Belizean twist - I attended a Moslem wedding on Ambergris Caye. It was officiated by a born Belizean Imam. The happy couple was from Canada. The new wife wasn't really sure what she was in for (she was Native American) but her Pakistani husband's Mom wanted this traditional wedding. The bride got the biggest smile on her face when the Imam began to instruct the new husband on his duties to treat his wife as his queen and to make sure she was always sexually satisfied. Is that Belizean? Seems so - and it was delightful.

Now can we drop religion and go back to something benign like politics (not).

Gorgeous day!!

Nice..thanks Diane

Good luck posting something positive about Islam! hee-hee

Sorry I know you were feeling left out - we know where you stand too.

Careful Amanda..Rykat is sucking his thumb again...

better my thumb than what you're suckin' jesse baby!!

Come on Rykat - Jesse loves the rum bottle!

I was going to avoid this thread, but I read the article.

In summary, a teenage girl had disobeyed her father, and had been killed following a family "council" meeting.

Ever wonder where these ideas come from?

For anyone who believes in it, let's have a look at what the Christian Bible says about this...

Deuteronomy 21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

Deuteronomy 21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

Deuteronomy 21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

Deuteronomy 21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.

No further comment.

The old Testament I believe... ancient Middle East.
http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Honor_killing_-_History/id/1481241
I think with the 'equality' of the sexes most religions, communities, chruches,church leaders,cultures and countries have progressed beyond the concept a woman being less than that of a man.

At last, after the personal insults a real debate is starting, what I wanted all along. That's my position on Islam - that it's a matter worthy of intelligent debate.

This isn't a debate.

Wiki's definition of 'debate'
"Online debating
With the increasing popularity and availability of the Internet, differing opinions arise frequently. Though they are often expressed via flaming and other forms of argumentation, which consist primarily of assertions, there do exist formalized debating websites, typically in the form of online forums or bulletin boards. The debate style is interesting, as research and well thought out points and counterpoints are possible because of the obvious lack of time restraints (although practical time restraints usually are in effect, e.g., no more than 5 days between posts, etc.).Forums are Moderated and welcome online debaters in a friendly format so all may speak their pros and cons. Many people use this to strengthen their points, or drop their weaker opinions on things, many times for debate in formal debates or for fun arguments with friends. The ease-of-use and friendly environments make new debaters welcome to share their opinions in many communities."
Looks like an on-line 'debate' to me except the 'friendly format' is sometimes lacking. IMHO accusations of hate and bigotry are hardly called for nor constructive or is assuming that ALL moslems are as bad and twisted as some of the radical groups a reasonable assumption.

Some people simply have too much time on their hands.

Or just enjoy watching people flip flopping around. Are you coming down for the Boogie Ernie?

Yes'em

Will you be jumping?

HAH!!!!!!!!!

Yep, I;ll be jumping up on a bar stool at BCs

I understand there are certain techniques that must be mastered in order to be granted the right to sit on one of those stools!

I have mastered getting 'on', its the getting 'off' that can be tricky

Ernie has mastered the sand angel manoeuvre

he's fine as long as he is sitting!

Who turned the dogs loose ?

Ernie, I'll watch your back. Especially if you buy me a beer.

You are on Jim, those guys are mean

Don't stand too close...he'll fall on ya!

WOW, A doorstop that talks

He buys me beer to
1)keep him on the stool
2)squash all facts/rumors/lis/fibs/SPD stories that might affect his honour
3)find him babes
4)satisfy his obsessive need to donate to the poor & thirsty

(Just don't go to dinner with him and expect split tabs )

You'll never see him mentioned in SPD...he's banned!

I can prove you wrong........

( jesse sneaking out the back door )

or editing