I just spoke to my best friend who lives in San Pedro. The Town Council has implemented a policy to start poisoning the stray dogs with strychnine. They advised her to keep her own dogs tied up at night. Besides being worried about my friends beloved pets, I am sickened at the thought of my favorite beach dogs dying a horrible painful death to strychnine. Apparently Bron,the local vet, had an agreement with the Town Council that she would do her share to help by spaying and neutering the stray dogs, but despite her efforts, they have decided to use this inhumane form of euthanasia. I love San Pedro and the dogs are such an integral part of the local color. Certainly there has to be other regular visitors who would be upset about these practices. Is there anything we can do to stop this? They were to start the poisoning last Wednesday so there have probably been some casualties already. Hopefully is wasn't your favorite beach dog
who fell victim~

Toad!!!! I guess you are not a dog lover..Maybe SAGA can come up with something...I hope so ....

Ya know Toad.....I appreciate your sense of humor as much as anyone, but you really do need to recognize when it's appropriate to joke around. I've witnessed death by strychnine and I assure you it's not pretty. No creature deserves that.

Toad

you sound like a real a-hole. I would help a dog before someone like you

I could argue both ways. I really dont enjoy watching a female dog get tag teamed by 6 horny little male ones while I'm enjoying lunch or a drink's at BC's. But I dont think they should be poisoned. There's definitly a stray dog problem in San Pedro. If the dogs are friendly enough to come up to me while I'm eating, there friendly enough to come up to the Vet(by luring them with food) then properly euthanize them.

I really don't think many of the San Pedro stray dogs read this message board. I'll be sure to pass along the info.

I'm assuming from all of toad's posts that he's not yet been to San Pedro. I can also tell you that not only has he never met me in person, we've never even had a conversation. Aren't his psychic abilities simply amazing????? Can you believe how much he knows about me and the situation with the dogs in San Pedro? Toad, you are truly amazing!

ToaD...YOU REALLY COULD USE A LESSON IN COMPASSION....What's the matter??? Parents lock you in a closet when you were young??? I let my dogs lick my face...but most humans,.... NOT!!!! Coconut

Toad

You're a legend in your own mind.

Hey Bill !!!

Isn't it good to know that when you pass on a message, someone is listening?

Hope you are gone and back again by the time we get back to SP....

Cheers~!
M M

Toad - dogs are rodents? LMAOOOOOOOO - where in the hell did you obtain your education...Walmart?

rodent (noun)....any of several mammals, as rats, mice, rabbits, squirrels, etc. characterized by incisors adapted for gnawing; especially a rat or mouse

toad (noun)... 1. any of various small froglike animals that eat insects and live on land rather than water, except during breeding..... 2. a person regarded as loathsome, contemptible, etc.

SOURCE: Webster's New World Dictionary



[This message has been edited by klcman (edited 06-29-2002).]

i feel i am repeating myself...but you know...he is just pulling your chain.

devil's advocate.

duhhhh who's yanking who

what...and be re-incarnated as Dr. Glen?

What goes around comes around, Toad you may be sorry one day!!!!!!!!!!!!! Rick

(*wink*) stay, sweetie!

Toad goes.

Please, please stay. You make my day!! If you have not yet been to S.P. Come look us up. Our place is Casa Plata and we have a drink with your name on it.

Toad, I have been ignoring your posts, as I don't usually respond to trolls, but since you asked nicely, I will answer this one.

Don't let the door hit you in the a** on the way out.

And thank you for asking! Though I'm sure you will stay no matter what, in which case I will go back to ignoring.

[This message has been edited by KC (edited 06-29-2002).]

Fact is the dogs are packing at night. They can be frightfull and I and my children have been put into fear as a result.
I am always surprised at the outcry over dog rights while people walk in fear of them.
I have seen people bitten on bicycles and have seen kids ride into the bushes on the side of the road as they are pursued by snarling dogs. I have personally almost had accidents on the golf cart trying to avoid dogs that were chasing me.
Dog rights…. . What about people rights. What about securing your animals....
My view … get rid of them before someone really gets hurt. Dogs are pack animals. They hunt that way.

Hey, people do not need to reply to Toad.

Turn off your vision, while I keep mine turned on.

Stay.

Where are the dog's owners? Are they strictly strays? ALL of them, some of them, what? Anybody know?

[This message has been edited by trina (edited 06-29-2002).]

from a friend...
I have lived in San Pedro all my life and the stray dog problem is not new
to us. We were able to control our stray population without any controversy
some years ago but I believe that foreign influence is now depriving us from
what you could call "an old way of doing things". I strongly believe that
dog lovers should keep their dogs at home, and that dog owners should be
fined for leaving their dogs to go astray. At this point, it will be the
same dog lovers in this board that will condemn the Town Council if rabies
or some other sort of disease start spreading on the Island. My pet is at
home and does her thing in the yard, not on the street or beach and is not
begging any tourist for food and hugs.

Einer Gomez

notice i stayed outta this one too.

guys...it just isn't really our business. it isn't our country.

whether i agree or not isn't the issue.

and lighten up on toad. is is just amusing himself. he is my new buddy.

Jane,See if you can get your "new buddy" to
"SHUT-UP"

He needs to GO!!!!!
And Marty Thanks, I agree!!!!!!
Rick

Go, if ya want...stay if ya want..no matter to me!!! Cheri'.....I personally have never had a problem with the dogs on AC! They have their life, we have ours! Rick and I treat our dogs as if they were our children. Besides, those crocs will take care of most the strays in due time. And Jane is right-it's not our country. Not much we can do from here. But if this HAS to be done..can't Dr. Bron just put them to sleep??? Instead of poison??

Cheri,

I agree with you. While I don't necessarily agree, I do understand why the population of dogs needs to be controlled. My biggest issue remains the means in which they are killing these dogs.

"The first signs of strychnine poisoning are agitation, excitability, and apprehension followed by painful seizures and cessation of breathing. Later symptoms are tremors, drooling, muscle spasms, leg paddling, and collapse."

Euthanasia by Dr. Bron would be a far more humane means of control.

And save the Strincnine to someone who really deserves it, perhaps a spouse.

The "old way of doing things" (don't spay and neuter your dogs, let them have puppies, enjoy the puppies and then when they reach adulthood dump them and send out the hit teams when there are too many of them to do the poison thing) SUCKS BIG TIME!
There is a simple answer to the clear problem of dog overpopulation: SPAY AND NEUTER ALL DOGS. Just in case you didn't get it I will say it again: SPAY AND NEUTER.
They are doing it now for FREE. The "I can't afford it" excuse no longer works.
If spaying and neutering and getting your dog innoculated for things like parvo and rabies is "foreign influence," well bring on MORE. We all have things to learn from one another. You can learn a lot from Belizeans aboutall kinds of things. And there is one thing that Belizeans can learn from us: SPAY AND NEUTER.
It is heart rending to see the abused, neglected dogs (and cats).
And yes, packs of dogs ARE a danger as well as a nuisance. Male dogs pursuing a female in heat can be vicious.
Once again with feeling: SPAY AND NEUTER. SPAY AND NEUTER. SPAY AND NEUTER.
If this bothers anyone's cultural sensitivity, get over it.
The town board should pay people to help round up strays for SPAYING AND NEUTERING instead of for killing.

I agree!

Bill,
I think you are onto something!!!!!!!!!!!!

i never would have guessed that susan would have an opinion on this. LOL!

agreed: spay & neuter. no question.

Spay and Neuter.

Probably need to ear tag, not to pick up the same dogs over and over.

vic...
lol
love hopie

Talked to the new vet and his wife last night. They plan an agressive campaign of spaying & neutering ASAP.

I also proposed spaying & neutering the so called "owners" who allow their dogs to run wild and get sick. We'll see.

New vet and his wife???
I totally agree with your last comment Kent!!

That's great news. I know thatin the past when my friend Dawn has taken her dogs in for vaccinations, she's also brought in a couple of extra beach dogs with her so they could be vaccinated as well. All of her dogs are spayed as well. If everyone did a little "extra", it would really add up to a lot of good. At last report, all of my favorite dogs had been accounted for except one....and I still have hope that someone will eventually spot "Stretch". If anybody see's him, please let me know...he's rather infamous.

Where did Dr. Bron go>??????? Are these new vets going to be running the Saga Society????

Bron was still there as of last week. Maybe she has some help now.

Bron is back in the UK... plans on returning to AC approx in a year I believe... In the meantime friends/associates of hers have taken over the duties of both the clinic and Saga... both are in very good hands until Bron returns.

WOW.......C

Bill, I will take an order of that strincnine (sp?)!!!!!!!

now now, dear. i told you to play nice...

is it that inhumane??????? hahaha!!!!!
sorry, i don't mean to be making fun of such a serious subject....

.

.

I'd like to contribute something positive to this stream.

A year & a half ago my husband and I headed to Belize (AC and Placencia) for a long overdue honeymoon. We picked AC in hopes of trying our hand at a little windsurfing. Instead I spent most of my time on AC in tears pedaling around the island, doling out dog biscuits and affection to the much overlooked dog / cat population.

I've traveled a lot and I've never seen dogs in such dire straits. It's one thing that they're neglected, but it's another that they don't have a chance thanks to the strychnine policy. In a country that prides itself on Ecotourism, I just can't fathom it. I think the Island is shooting itself in the foot - I doubt the majority of Western tourists would want to support such barbarism. (Granted, the situation wasn't so ugly in Placencia where they have an active Humane Society. AC is in a class of its own.)

Anyway, rage aside, we decided to take a couple dogs home with us. That was after we met Bronwen and were so inspired by the strides she'd made. We made the arrangements with her, only to hear two days before our exit from the country that one of the dogs had been poisoned and died. At that point, our resolve became even firmer.

Long story short, with the help of Bronwen and her foster "parents" we were able to adopt two dogs (one of whom we found when we were there - Amber - and the other whom we took sight unseen - Chance). Bronwen put them on the plane nearly 6 weeks after our visit and they arrived in Portland 2 days later. They had both been in pretty bad shape - abused, mange, heartworm, etc. BUT, they are the best dogs. They adapted wonderfully - to our 4-yr old Ridgeback, to rainy/slushy Oregon days, to everything. I can't tell you how happy they are and how happy they make everyone who comes into contact with them.

A newspaper in town will be featuring their story in October, so Saga should get a lot of local press among the huge pro-dog population in Portland. Another twist - we were recently asked if Chance was a rare breed called a Nova Scotia Duck Tolling Retriever. We laughed. "Sure, by way of Belize," we retorted. Upon further investigation with breeders, it appears he is indeed that rare breed. You just never know.

Sorry for the long posting, but I'm hoping my story will inspire a constructive, proactive angle. Gandhi said, "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." Perhaps the powers-that-be on AC should take a step back.

what a great follow up on this. thanks.

what this shows is: some people bitch, others do.

i could not tank any, but know i brought many vet supplies down with me.

anyone else can too. all it took was a call to my vet before i left. they gave me 2 dz flea collars, tetracyclene, 20 cat/dog food samples & flea/tick shampoos.

The Town Council has a better understanding of the problem than most on this board. The problem is overpopulation of dogs that have no owners and are not being taken care of. This leads to a public health problem. Spaying and nuetering is effective only after the problem of overpopulation is dealt with. And the people of San Pedro are dealing with this in their "own way". Like it or not. If Saga and others would correctly identify the problem and accept the solution, ie. get the population under control, then the animals would be much better off. The bottom line is, all stray animals either need to be found a home and properly taken care of or eliminated. It does not go to the root of the problem by spaying or nuetering and then turning them loose to fend for themselves. The effective policy would be to pick up all strays and attempt to find owners who wanted them and would nueter and vaccinate them and humanely destroy all others. The people of San Pedro would be much better off. The dogs with owners who feed and take care of them would be much better off. And the dogs destroyed would be better off as opposed to dying of starvation or desease.

hi warren. first i want to say it was nice to meet you & your lovely friend. you have been a great asset on this board.

but i believe "humanely" is the issue most folks here are concerned with. i think most can (emotions aside) understand the overpopulation and what needs to be done, it was the random poisoning that was at issue. that is very different than rounding them up and putting them to sleep.

i am sorry folks, but as i stated before, warren is right. it isn't our country and we must let them do things their way, like it or not.

if any of you have the guts (heart?) to do more than talk, go for it.

my husband and i just returned from our second trip to AC. this past time we stayed north of town at the Blue Tang Inn. during our first few days, there were around 6 to 9 dogs hanging out in that area. on sunday (i think, i lost track of the days) we watched as a golf cart pulled up and started rounding up the dogs. i think they initially took about 3 or 4. i should have asked what they were doing, but didn't - i was too scared that it might not be the answer i wanted to hear.

however, i think i later saw one of the dogs, and she had a blue collar around her neck. i saw another dog later on, with the same type of collar. neither of these dogs had been spayed or nutered. does anyone have any idea of what was done to these dogs??

it breaks my heart to think that they might have been put down. i know there is a problem with the strays, but I hope it can be corrected without putting them all down.

sweetJane: It was nice to put some faces to the names at the party. And thank you for adding the letters et to what you consider me to be. My point is there is alot of talk on this topic about spaying, neutering and the cruelty of destroying the animals without, what I believe to be, sufficient discussion on a total solution. That being, getting the overpopulation under control. Spaying and nuetering will only be effective after that is done. That involves finding homes for the strays or destroying them. The Town Council is addressing part of the problem in their own way and I do not think it is right for people to criticize them unless they can offer constructive criticism that address the whole problem. Just spaying, neutering and turning the animals loose to die of starvation or desease or turn into wild animals killing to survive or hoping some tourist will adopt them is not, in my opinion, the best solution. I would support an effort that would collect the strays. Put them in a shelter until either a home could be found or the animal destoyed. The Town Council is solving part of the problem by controling the overpopulation. Although, I would prefer a more humane way. And, part of the problem is being solved by spaying and neutering. But, I do not feel that returning the spayed and neutered animals to the steets is appropriate. Bottom line, get the overpopulation under control, find homes for or destroy stray animals.

[This message has been edited by bywarren (edited 07-11-2002).]

For the record, shelters are a pretty new concept in Belize, period. The Belize Humane Society has been trying to raise funds for a shelter in BC for the past few years. Don't know if it's off the table or what at this time. Placencia is a couple of years down the road with their fledgling Humane Society chapter, too, attempting to get a handle on its stray population. There are so many needs that band-aid solutions are the best than can be offered in the interim and getting ahead of the curve is a challenge while uncontrolled breeding goes on and on.

(i am happy to think maybe these blue collars are the flea/tick ones i donated in june)

warren, as always, your ideas seem level-headed & logical. too bad they often go in one ear & out the other.

Bellalou, I spoke with Bron the other day and she said on Sun. she spayed and neutered 6 dogs, so they were probaly the ones you saw. Also after their surgery they tag them so yes Jane they are probably the collars you sent. As far as a shelter they need land and other funds to accomplish this great need.

This breaks our heart as well since we love dogs and cats! We love our 2 dogs and 1 cat like children. We got to meet Dr. Bron and gave her a big bag full of flea treatments, doggie bisquites and more and I know she has been doing her best to help out these poor homeless doggies. I think poisoning dogs or cats is just horrible but unfortunately Belize is far from a perfect place and we have seen the same problems in other countries. It sure makes us sad to see the conditions these poor animals live in. I think there is not much we can all do because poor countries just do this kind of thing and poison or kill unwanted pets and even if they keep a dog as a pet many times they are not treated the way people in the US or Germany would. A sad problem!!! The town council probably just doesn't know what else to do and does not have money for a more humane resolution.

YA know I just saw a show on tv about a woman who is a pilot and flies around the country to rescue ex-racing greyhounds. I think that just because it isn't our country doesnt mean we can't try to help. There are so many issues in the world today for us to chose from as to what we want to put our efforts towards. If AC is where you like to spend your time then I think it is a good idea that you take interest in what goes on there, especially if an issue hits home and arouses your concern. I agree with the statement about that the council is doing the best it can with its resources. Who knows, if a group were to actively approach with a plan and additional resources then maybe more agreable measures may be made possible.It is nice to read about SAGA and all the donations people are bringing down.It sounds like many people have compassion for the stray dogs. What if we each called our local vets to ask for ideas or maybe even small donations to send to, oh I don't know who, SAGA maybe, to build funds for some type of shelter solution. Its just a thought. I used to do work with PETA, a long time ago.

I know that when I was on CC last year I sat for hours with the dogs there and one became quite territorial over me and the step I was sitting on. He ended up chasing all the other dogs away and even a few people that came too close to me. Strange!

Some people might look at this topic as a waste of time, after all it is just a bunch of mangey muts...who cares what happens to them. However, I know a bunch of people who would much prefer to save an animal over a human. (Not trying to take this too far but just stating a fact!)

At the risk of upstetting alot of you, let me add my further thoughts to this topic which started out about the Town Board poisoning the dogs. Also, let me tell you that as I write this, my lab is curled up in my bed. Most of those who live on AC consider the overpopulation of dogs to be a problem. Both from a health and safety concern. If you accept this as an accurate assesment of the problem, then logic would dictate that the population must be gotten under control. This means destroying the dogs or finding homes for them where they are taken care of and not let run loose. Unfortunatly, they are not many people on AC who want to take in the stray dogs. Now try for a minute to not focus on the plight of the dogs and put yourselve in the shoes of one who lives on AC and has to deal with this problem all year long and not just for a week while on vacation. In that light, how would you feel about someone coming for a visit to your island and deciding that they want to "help" this situation by critizing the way you have handled this situation in the past and are handling it now. Bearing in mind that the way it has been handled has been effective, all be it not very humane. And in effect, by trying in what you believe to be a humane and compassionate response, possibly prolonging the problem by "temporarily" taken care of these animals only to have them turned loose again to roam the streets scavaging for food, waiting to catch some desease and spreading their feces. Think about it. If you really want to help, don't bring down flea control medicine. Rather, put that time effort and money into supporting a program for humane euthanasia and nuetering of animals by their owners.

[This message has been edited by bywarren (edited 07-12-2002).]

FYI I just talked to a Vet friend of mine. The cost of the chemicals to euthanise a dog is less than 50 cents. That is probably cheeper than the poison they are using. He is willing to get the chemicals at cost or partialy donated. This is the kind of effort I would support.

warren, again, i completely agree.

sarah, first, my area is HUGE on that greyhound thing. you see them EVERYWHERE. very trendy here. but, i think you are just barely missing the point...it isn't that we don't take an interest in what goes on there, we just do not have the right to interfere unless we are there actually DOING it. i wouldn't want someone from england, iraq, or japan coming here & telling me how to do things.

also, remember that the locals you are asking to take them in or care for them often are barely scraping by themselves. and they just see things differently. if i may, i would like to relate a short story: in '00, we were walking thru town. a girl of about 4 was playing with a tiny black pup. it was so cute. but she was yanking it terribly and pulling it by its tail, it was yelping. i stopped & bent down. talked quietly about feelings and love. showed her how to be gentle to a pet. how it was just a baby & needed her. she smiled a quizzical look like i was speaking chinese, then gave it a soft pat on the head. i smiled back and said 'very nice!'.

i do not know if she learned anything, but the culture difference was clear. it was all i could do. i moved on.

warren, go for it on donating chems. it pains me too, but it is the right thing.(also, bear in mind the donations i brought were what dr bron specifically asked for)

Warren, I don’t think most of us “criticize” the methods being used by the Town Council as much as we would like to offer an alternative. I realize that strychnine has been the only choice available for controlling the dog population in SP. I also believe that given the choice, animal lovers (whether SP residents or tourists) would prefer a more humane method. Besides the fact that strychnine causes a painful torturous death, the practice of dispensing it haphazardly also puts all animals, children and others at risk. If ALL of the strays could be spayed or neutered, eventually there would be no more strays. Of course we all know this is impossible or at least unlikely even with the help of all the people who care. Most of us are aware that the residents of SP have been handling things in the best way they could, but I’m sure if they had the funds, supplies and knowledge, they would prefer to deal with the situation differently. I also hope you won’t take offense to “outsiders” offering some help. Stray dogs and cats are a problem in just about every part of the world. In the city where I live, they adopted a very aggressive spay-neuter program. The ones who weren’t lucky enough to be spayed or neutered and given homes did have to be destroyed (but in a humane way). Several years ago, they had to destroy approximately 4,000 dogs and cats each year. Last year, that figure dropped to 815 simply because less births occurred. With Saga picking up and neutering as many strays as possible, at least there will be less innocent animals that will have to be “put to sleep”. Also, by vaccinating them and controlling their fleas, they are helping to control the diseases. Granted, there will still be some animals that have to be put down, but if it can be done without the use of strychnine, it would be much more humane and safe. It takes a little more effort on the part of everyone (especially the vets), but the problem CAN be greatly reduced without so many dogs and cats being put through such a horrible death. Irresponsible owners are another subject that needs to be dealt with although I don’t know what to suggest in this case. In our city, if an animal is picked up, there are heavy fines involved and the animals will not be released back to the owners without being neutered. Perhaps in SP, it would have to be dealt with differently. The point I am really trying to make here is…. please don’t be offended by us “outsiders” who want to help. We might not have the ultimate solution, but if we can help a little, won’t you let us? BTW….I think that would be wonderful if your vet friend would help supply or donate the chemicals needed and hopefully, the staff at Saga will be able to administer them as needed.

I meant to address this quote....

"Spaying and nuetering is effective only after the problem of overpopulation is dealt with. And the people of San Pedro are dealing with this in their "own way". Like it or not. If Saga and others would correctly identify the problem and accept the solution, ie. get the population under control, then the animals would be much better off."

Spaying and neutering IS a part of solving the overpopulation problem. It isn't something to be dealt with AFTER. Less births = less dogs and cats that would have to be destroyed.

Here I go again probably stepping on some toes. But in my opinion, until the voluntier vets in San Pedro and Saga or whoever else has an interest in this are willing to adopt a policy that includes euthanasia of unwanted pets and not just neutering and returning the strays to the streets with a flea coller on them, for they are not part of the solution but part of the problem. I won't bring supplies down to prolong an animals poor existance that will become a health threat and eventually die from desease. I have had Labs as my companions since my senior year in college (1965) and am pleased to think that I have not allowed them to suffer when their time has come. There is a time and place for euthansia and that is very evident in San Pedro.
PS: SeaJay, I am not against spaying and neutering of wanted pets and am not infering that those are not helpful methods. My point is that they alone are not the answer and must be combined with euthanasia. I think it is counter productive and a waste of resources to neuter unwanted pets and turn them loose. Bottom line, if a dog in San Pedro (or anywhere else) does not have a responsible owner taking care of it, it is better of in dog heaven.

[This message has been edited by bywarren (edited 07-12-2002).]

(does anyone know how they are then disposed? cremation, like here? is there a facility?)

Thank you, bywarren. I appreciate your imput.

Let me relate a true story that has similarities. In Montana the sheep ranchers were having a problem with coyotes killing their young sheep due to an overpopulation of coyotes and not enough natural prey for them to feed on. The animal rights advocates called a meeting where a young gentleman presented a plan to the ranchers where they would capture the coyotes neuter them and return them unharmed to the wild as opposed to having them shot. After his presentation, an old rancher seated in the back stood up and said "Sonny, I don't think you understand the problem. Them coyotes ain't f**king our sheep their eatn em".


[This message has been edited by bywarren (edited 07-12-2002).]

So what's the point of Saga spending scarce resourses neutering and spaying the dogs and cats if the town is just going to kill them?Poision does not care if you have been fixed.
Maybe this is something that Saga has to address.If this killing has to be done Saga should do it the right way.

You know I talked to Dr. Bron before we came down in June of 2001 to get a list of things she needed for Saga and surgical tools for nutering/spaying etc. was on the list besides the flea treatment etc. I called my Vet and got no support at all. They just said that they are already supporting local efforts which I can understand. So we took down what we could buy and carry and purchased Saga Calendars etc. If everyone does at least something little like this it will help at least some animals. I have also supported another Group called YARF Yucatan Animal Rescue Foundation and they run clinics several times per year in Akumal, Tulum in Mexico etc.
Cozumel, Playa del Carmen and Isla Mujeres have their own organizations as well and it does help over time. We happen to own Greyhounds (the smaller Italian Greyhound type) and are very aware of the plight of these wonderful dogs. Yes, we have some ugly problems right here in the United States.
In matter of fact we did our part and adopted a Greyhound last year. Every small effort helps. Yes, maybe some dogs will get killed in San Pedro but I am sure some others will survive because of us tourists willing to help and even if it is only a $20 donation to Saga. Don't give up people!!!

Congratulations SEAWINGS you get the point. A plan of offering neutering services to pet owners combined with a sensible plan for euthanasia of unwanted animals is one that I can support.

Let me first apologize for perhaps butting in where it’s none of my business. Secondly, let me try to clarify what I was saying.

If animals need to be put down, it seems that most people would prefer to do it in a humane fashion when possible.

Haphazard poisoning with strychnine not only causes pain and suffering to the unwanted strays, but it also puts all other animals and humans at risk (including children who might accidentally pick up a poisoned piece of food.

When animals are poisoned from strychnine, they most often will wander off to die. Who knows where that might be.

If these animals were put down humanely by a vet, their remains could be dealt with properly.

I realize that strychnine was the only way of dealing with the overpopulation of animals in SP in the past, but perhaps with the help of donations of time and supplies, this could change.

With the HELP of spaying and neutering, the number of animals needing to be destroyed would decline.

As to the flea collars and vaccinations – they can only help in reducing the spread of disease, so what harm can this do? I made some donations of collars, grooming supplies and medication to Saga and don’t regret it. If they use it to help just one animal, that’s better than nothing.

It’s a shame that two separate groups (Town Council and Saga) both striving for a solution to the problem of strays, can’t join forces and find a compromise that works for everyone.

Maybe I have missed a point here too. Does Saga refuse to put down any animals? If this is the case, perhaps they need to be willing to help with euthanasia. I’m for ANYTHING that would put an end to the indiscriminate strychnine poisonings

I apologize again for sticking my nose in, it’s just that it truly breaks my heart to think of so many animals facing such a painful death. I know I don’t have the solution, but I was just hoping with the help of everyone who cares, a few innocent animals could be spared this type of death. My main point is….although some people can’t support an organization like Saga, I can’t support anyone who chooses to use strychnine IF they have other alternatives. I hope some middle ground can be found that really does work.

I know I’ve said enough….more than I should have. So I won’t reply to this subject again. I truly wish the best for everyone involved with this problem.

dog is God spelled backwards

For anyone who may be interested, here's a link on this website about SAGA.
http://ambergriscaye.com/sagasociety/index.html

touche by warren. When in Rome...

I do NOT apologize for speaking my mind and will not stop doing so. As for "not living there," you are right, but a hell of a lot of my money lives there and I will continue to speak up. And yes, I donate $$ to Saga and on my most recent visit, spent some bucks to provide care for a pup who needed it, not to mention all the cat food I supply.
Let's not fall all over ourselves trying to be politically correct, shall we?
Right is right and wrong is wrong, and the way SOME (by no means all) citizens of AC treat the cute puppies and kittens they enjoy as toys for the first two months of their lives and then abandon is WRONG.
For those of you who do not care about animals, ponder this: When you allow your children to witness and indeed participate in the neglect, abuse and murder of helpless animals, you are DE SENSITIZING them to all forms of suffering, including human suffering. Those who can walk by a starving, beaten, sore-ridden dog or cat without an ounce of compassion is one step further towards being able to walk past a similarly situated child.
Empathy is a learned thing. Or not learned.

Whether we live in Belize, own property, pay taxes or spend money there is not the issue. Belize is a democarcy and it is the voters who elect the representatives that determine how the country is run. I do not think any city or town in the US would appreciate foreigners coming and buying a piece of property and then thinking they had the right to tell the elected officials they should do things as they say as opposed to those who elected them. That is an example of how Americans are many times considered arrogant, hypocritical and not appreciated in other countries. Foreigners in Belize have the right to own property and the obligation to pay taxes. If you want to be involved in how the country is run or even criticize how it is run, then become a citizen and vote or remain a polite guest.

Well, we certainly have different understandings of the concept of "democracy." Not to mention different views of the purpose of the right to speak out and what the limits of that right ought to be.

Be that as it may, I will continue to speak up when I see any human being or other living creature mistreated, wherever I see it. Whether it will have any impact or not remains to be seen, but I consider that my duty as a human being and a citizen of the world. If that bothers you (or anyone else), you don't have to read it, that goes for anyone else who finds it offensive.

"Each time a person stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope, and crossing each other from a million different centers of energy and daring, these ripples build a current that can sweep down the mightiest
walls of oppression and resistance."
(Robert F. Kennedy)

nicely put, bywarren.

susan, my heart is with you 100%, but my logical side still says warren is right.

Yes, Susan we do have different views. My view is people have not earned the right to criticize unless they haved participated in the democaratic process. Even in the US, until someone has earned the right to be critical by exercising their responsibility and voted, I do not feel they have that right. As far as the extent of your right to be critical of the people of San Pedro who the vast majority feel that the overpopulation of unwanted animals is a health problem and a detriment to the community, I think has exceeded what is proper and respectfull. I think you are WAY out of line (not to mention inaccurate) when you describe these people as being murderers. Murder by definition is a human being killing another human being. I would expect an attornay to be more accurate in their choice of words. And, I think you are ignorant of the problem when you feel donating a bag of food is the solution. I am sure there are many San Pedranos who feel that just because you bought a piece of property for investment and pay the taxes that you are obligated for, and spend a few bucks when you come down for your weeks vacation that you have not yet earned the right to criticize them in what they probably perceive to be an inaccurate, arrogant and condescending manner, but are polite enough not to say so. And, let's be thankful they are intelligent enough not to put all of us in the same catagory.

Let me first disclose that I respond being an active volunteer in animal rescue in the D.C. metro area (dogs, cats, turtles . .. pretty much anything that needs it those these three groups primarily). So, this is an issue very close to my heart.

I was in AC last November and am returning in a couple months. I was VERY upset by the stray dog/cat population. I agree something needs to be done about.

That being said, I don't really think anyone on this board is in disagreement about the fact that what should be done (at least to most people) is not as important as HOW it should be done, and that is, humanely. To me strychnine poinsoning is unsafe and inhumane (as for me passing judgment on this point, keep reading below).

As for a solution, there simply must be a program that involves Spay/Neuter (and just , that alone HAS worked with many feral cat populations, though it takes time which people may or may not want this as a sole option; nevertheless, I advocate this first and foremost.

Now, unfortunately, there are some cases where euthanasia is necessary (for the health/safety of the animal and the community). While I don't like it, I realize it as what it is and may be necessary for the time being. However, again, it should and can be done humanely (esp. by a community that promotes itself as eco-friendly as one poster correctly pointed out).

But, a third component that cannot be ignored as part of the solutionis education of the community there. And, being that SAGA has sought the advice/counsel of the "foreign" americans (namedly the HSUS), and that it has registered itself as a 501(c)(3) non profit in the US, it seems that at least SOME on AC want the input of the foreigners.

I belive in democracy and the right of those on AC to make their own decisions. But decisions (whatever the area) and innovations are not made in a vacuum. That's a fact. We in the U.S. , the groups I volunteer with, as well as our government (I work for the U.S. Government) do not make decisions for us simply on the basis of what we alone know or want. We actively welcome and solicit the ideas, opinions, alternatives offered by others. So, I see absolutely NOTHING wrong with offering such things to AC and its citizents (be it on this very important issue or others). The thing is to do it in a way that is respectful of the native population (our ideas may or may not be better but to close off the possiblilities b/c they are foreign is short sighted).

So, I will continue to offer supplies, money , assistance or whatever is needed, including my own ideas on how to address this issue if the opportunity presents itself. I will do so in the hopes that both they and I would learn something from one another and come out in the end with a solution that addresses the problem humanely and effectively.

Anyway, that is just my two cents (I'm also an attorney so my writing is sometimes abrupt--I don't mean to be and apologize if this offends anyone).

I welcome any thoughts on what I've written.

Grrrr….I promised not to post to this subject again but I have to break that promise. It seems that Bywarren is under the impression that “freedom of speech” only pertains to “citizens”. I won’t get into the argument as to whether or not we have the right to tell elected officials what to do, but this message board is NOT a town meeting. It is however one of the few ways that we have to perhaps let the people of San Pedro know what options they have. If per chance some caring “citizens” of San Pedro agree with us, they might just decide to fight for change. Blocking information or “censoring” is one sure way to keep people in the dark – thus insuring that nobody rocks the boat. Education is one way of producing change. I believe there are a lot of people in San Pedro who don’t realize that there are other ways to handle the animal over-population problem. If the citizens of San Pedro don’t like our ideas for change, they are under no obligation to implement them but at least with information, they have the opportunity to decide for themselves. Perhaps if they become aware, they will do something. Bywarren should not be afraid to see differing opinions posted here unless he has a reason to fear them. He seems to feel that only his opinion is right and the rest of us have no right to speak up. Is there some reason you don’t want to see the practice of strychnine poisoning eliminated?

Bywarren: “Belize is a democarcy and it is the voters who elect the representatives that determine how the country is run. I do not think any city or town in the US would appreciate foreigners coming and buying a piece of property and then thinking they had the right to tell the elected officials they should do things as they say as opposed to those who elected them.” “If you want to be involved in how the country is run or even criticize how it is run, then become a citizen and vote or remain a polite guest.” “Even in the US, until someone has earned the right to be critical by exercising their responsibility and voted, I do not feel they have that right.” “I am sure there are many San Pedranos who feel that just because you bought a piece of property for investment and pay the taxes that you are obligated for, and spend a few bucks when you come down for your weeks vacation that you have not yet earned the right to criticize them in what they probably perceive to be an inaccurate, arrogant and condescending manner


Bywarren, you say you are sure that some San Pedranos feel we have no right to "critize". (BTW...information and suggestions aren't necessarily criticism.) Are you sure there are NONE who would welcome our help and suggestions? I say even in the US, “outsiders” are free to express their opinions. It is our option to accept them or not. I say it would be ignorant and arrogant of us to think that just because someone is not a citizen of the US, they could not possibly have valuable information or a valid opinion. Isn’t this what Freedom of Speech is all about?

And......Thank you Susan and Beachbride for opening my eyes again. Just because someone tells me it's none of my business doesn't mean I have to sit back and shut up.

animal rights aside for just one minute - FOR JUST ONE MINUTE I SAID NOBODY TAKES ARMS AGAINST ME- i am the first one in line to protect our resources. my question is, did they put the poison out and are there dead dogs everywhere??? anybody there know??? bill are you home yet???
gay

anyone know where i can find a chum shredder?

Ya know...simply put, if you look at mother nature...she is very cruel indeed but necessarily so! some of our instincts come from nature. I remember as a child..we would get the word that the dogs would be poisened that night...so those of us who had pets.."in our yard", would put them in the house to keep them safe. The people of Belize have always accepted these facts and never questioned the way it was done....(instinct from mother nature here)...this has gone on for years. Unless you can put your money where your mouth is for the whole of the project you are suggesting..then you must stay totally out of it and heed the good advice of Warren who seems to be so well informed. Remember you are a guest in that country and it doesn't matter how much property or how many taxes you pay...you are still only a guest...and what do guests do? they mind their manners. Belize ways are hard to understand, don't try.
Having said that ... I must confess to owning 5 dogs who I love dearly....but then they are the lucky ones.

MosquitoR

Ahhh...I just read some other posts...must respond lol....talking to hear yourself talk, is one way....but what are you bringing to the table? information? opinions? suggestions? all of that is good and well, but where is the money? money talks,you know? money makes things happen in belize....talk is cheap...real cheap...drink up..soon you'll forget. LOL

[This message has been edited by Mosquitorose (edited 07-19-2002).]

SeaJay: you miss my point. If you read some of my earlier posts on this topic you will see where I have opposed the poisoning of the animals and have offered to assist in getting the chemicals to humanely euthanise when necessary because I feel that unfortunatly euthanasia has to be part of the solution. My objection to Susan's approach is that I do not feel she has presented a convincing arguement giving her the "right" to characterize the people of San Pedro as murderers and I do not feel that is a very constructive way to add the imput and suggestions that would bring about the changes needed. I will always defend a persons right to speak their mind. But, when that speach is what I consider to be inappropriate, offensive, nonconstructive and inaccurate, I will in the spirit of debate, exercise my right to challenge it. A person's right to free speech does not insulate them from being held responsible for their speech. That is why there are laws addressing liable and slander as well as protecting free speech.

[This message has been edited by bywarren (edited 07-19-2002).]

[This message has been edited by bywarren (edited 07-19-2002).]

[This message has been edited by bywarren (edited 07-19-2002).]

Ah yes, the "outside agitator" defense...I know it well:

"...You northern folks have no business interfering with how we treat our 'coloreds.'. they LIKE having their own buses and their own schools, and they ain't interested in voting anyway. Why don't you go back where you came from and mind your own business?"
"....You city folks got no business telling us how to treat our farm workers. That spray don't hurt 'em none and they don't need toilets in the field, they are using to going on the ground...go back to LA and mind your own business, you don't live here."
"...You young folks got no business telling Uncle Sam what to do. You have never been in the military. You don't understand those commies like we do. Stop interfering in foreign policy, its none of your business."
"....Get the hell off my property. You don't own this land and its none of your business what we are dumping out here...."
"..Whaddya mean, I can't give that bitch wife of mine a good whupping?" She's my WIFE...its a family matter and you ain't a member of my family..."

"First they came for the communists, but I wasn't a communists, so I kept quiet. Then they came for the trade unionists, but I wasn't a trade unionist, so I kept quiet. Then they came for the Jews, but I wasn't a Jew so I kept quiet. Then they came for the Catholics, but I wasn't a Catholic so I kept quiet. Then they came for me but there was nobody left to speak up."
(Unknown author)

Ahhhh yes….some more beer barrel rhetoric. Nothing to do with the subject….living in the past….the moment is now.
MR

omg. this is amazing. truly. i might step on a few toes or even get ostracized from the board for this, but for real... if one percent of the people on this earth cared about the suffering of other humans one ounce as much as some of you care about the dogs, this world would be a much better place. That said, I do not like the idea of strychnine poisoning, but it is not my decision to make. Why don't some of you who care about this issue so passionately put your time and money where your mouth is and make a proposal to the Town Council and see if you can affect change? bywarren said he knows where he can get chems donated to take care of the problem humanely. Is anyone willing to fork up the money or make a serious proposal to the "powers that be," or would that ask too much involvement? Passion for a cause without action is purely academic, and offers little more than healthy debate (which is always fun). Those who affect change are the ones who put actions to words. A challenge... any takers? Or we can continue to just talk - after all, we believe in the freedom of speech.

Amen I J

MR

THANK YOU IslandJunkie for summing up this (rather long winded) debate with simple math:

Talk - Action = 0 ...plain enough.

There are practical issues here and there are moral issues.
The practical issues are:

1. Raising funds to pay for spay/neuter, medicine, professional services, etc. That is already being done. More is needed. Since this is a public health issue, ought not the town board be asked to consider allocating the funds used for killing to pay for care? I think the argument that "foreigners" are not "putting their money where their mouths are" is untrue. From what I have seen and heard, the majority of the money donated has come from "foreigners." If I am wrong, please correct me. How about asking the town board to kick in a few bucks on condition the funds be matched? We can raise money right here on this list.
2. Getting practical support for plain old fashioned HELP. When I was there, Bron had a good supply of equipment but needed plain old human HANDS to help round up dogs and help take care of them. SHe was burning out. How about a campaign to encourage local teens (the ones who have time on their hands, recognizing that many don't because of family work responsibilities) to volunteer an hour or two in the spirit of community service?
3. Public education on the need to spay/neuter, vaccinate. How about a bit of support from teachers, inviting speakers to classes to talk about humane treatment of animals and how to take care of animals? What about involving the public health community? They have enough to do with their time I am sure, but cannot we print out flyers and info sheets that they would only need to distribute when they visit people?

Then there are the moral and cultural issues. It seems that there are some people in town (including on this list) who see nothing wrong with allowing animals to breed, then turning them out and eventually killing them in a horrendous way. There is no way to tread lightly around this dispute, folks. I don't know if the citizens who support the poisioning represent the majority or the minority, or whether they just accept it because "we've always done it that way" without really considering the morality of it at all. I have discussed it with Belizean friends and none of them were happy about the poisoning. One friend pointed out that many local people simply cannot afford to provide proper care for a pet. His way of dealing with that problem was simply not to have one, because he felt that it was wrong to take in an animal if you can't care for it. He also said to me: "there are children who are living in as bad conditions as those dogs right here in San Pedro."
But I have also heard the other viewpoint, and its been expressed today on this list. I see no way to discuss this moral issue other than as a moral issue and I have no more difficulty expressing it that way than I do expressing the belief that it is immoral to beat your wife. "We have always done it that way" is not a valid excuse for wrong doing, whether its animal abuse, spousal abuse, denying people human rights due to race or gender as far as I am concerned.

On the issue of desensitization: Some of you disagree that children who are allowed to form loving relationships with pets for a short time and then watch them starve, sicken and get poisoned are not being densitised to suffering of all kinds. I can only say that I disagree and there is ample scientific research to back up my view. Desensitization is a major factor in the inability of infants and children to develop empathy. There is clear correlation between childhood animal abuse and violent behavior as an adult.

Then there is the issue of whether any dog who is not confined in a fenced yard is "fair game." Those who defend poisoning on that basis seem to me to ignore the fact that many people do not have fenced yards. Should only those people who have fenced yards be allowed the security of knowing that their animal will not be put to death in a horrid way? Should only those wealthy enugh to have a fenced yard enjoy that security?

When I learned on my visit that dogs had been poisoned, I called Bron and she told me that she had been promised that it would not be done again without first disussing with her what alternatives might be tried first and she was quite upset that this promise was broken. I don't know if that played a role in her decision to leave or if it was a mere coincidence. Or it may be that the recent incidents were not by order of the town board but by private citizens acting on their own. I'd like to know the answer to that.

Euthanasia: I have heard it implied that SAGA refuses to euthanise and I know that to be false. They have euthanised quite a few animals who were too sick or injured to survive. The moral issue here is whether it is OK to euthanise a healthy animal simply because it has no home. I can see the merits in both sides of that argument but I personally cannot justify executing a healthy, socialised animal without going to great lengths to find him a home or some kind of living alternative.

As to the argument that spay and neuter will not solve the problem of homeless animals,that is partially true in that it will not solve the problem completely and quickly. It will drastically cut down the numbers within a short time, but not overnight.

But how many social problems are solved overnight? If we never did anything because a problem couldn't be solved overnight, where would we be? Back in the stone age, I suspect...

The one way that is guaranteed to fail is to refuse to discuss it and to sweep it under the rug. Those of you who feel most comfortable doing that` fine. But don't try to muzzle the rest of us.

DD... you're not REALLY proposing that as an option are you!!! Do you REALLY believe the people San Pedro would accept THAT as an alternative??? I mean, there's not all that much to eat on these dogs...

(if dd can't stick to the issue, please stay off. you want us to listen to your opinions, ok. sure. but don't make an ass of yourself, or that is what we will think of all your opinions too.)

Q.Raising funds to pay for spay/neuter, medicine, professional services, etc. That is already being done. More is needed.
A.Right! Lots more….and where to get it?
Q. Since this is a public health issue, ought not the town board be asked to consider allocating the funds used for killing to pay for care?
A.You can try…good luck. They seem to have a better idea.
Q.I think the argument that "foreigners" are not "putting their money where their mouths are" is untrue. From what I have seen and heard, the majority of the money donated has come from "foreigners." If I am wrong, please correct me.
A.you are correct….but alas! you didn’t give enough. You have to give all that is needed….it is you who want to save the dogs...and then you must make sure to supply all that is necessary (food etc.) after you save them.(belize ways)
Q.Then there are the moral and cultural issues. Etc.,. etc.
A.I cannot imagine anyone including myself who supports the poisoning…but when you have crooked politicians eating up all the money resources in the country….there is hardly any money left for people…much less for stray dogs. If you have lived in Belize any time at all …surely you have noticed it’s laid back in everything….including this topic.
Q.There is clear correlation between childhood animal abuse and violent behavior as an adult.
A.That is quite correct! and you can see that on a daily bases.
Q.Then there is the issue of whether any dog who is not confined in a fenced yard is "fair game."
A.The poisen is also thrown over the fence..need to lock the dog in the house..
Q.Or it may be that the recent incidents were not by order of the town board but by private citizens acting on their own. I'd like to know the answer to that.
A.Hmmmm interesting. and then what?
Q..The moral issue here is whether it is OK to euthanise a healthy animal simply because it has no home.
A.Or the alternative would be to let it starve….get sick….bite someone…crap on the beach, that washes into the ocean and then you wonder why you got sick. Or get worms in your feet.
Q. If we never did anything because a problem couldn't be solved overnight, where would we be? Back in the stone age, I suspect...
A.Hello?
Q.Those of you who feel most comfortable doing that` fine. But don't try to muzzle the rest of us.
A.Wouldn’t dream of it…..and no one is really comfortable with it....you just don't fight city hall is all. Unless of course you have mucho, mucho back up.

MR

[This message has been edited by Mosquitorose (edited 07-19-2002).]

To those of you who said “put your money where your mouth is”. I think if you would take the time to do the research, you will find that the majority of us “outsiders” using our mouths also reached into our pockets. There were also a large number of us “outsiders” who responded to SEAWING’S earlier post by bringing donations of supplies from home when we visited SP. As Susan brought up, man-hours are also desperately needed. I wonder how many hours Bron donated to the cause. In addition to this, there have been many cases of tourists offering a helping hand even though their time in SP was very limited. Furthermore, I was never aware that there was a monetary charge for voicing an opinion. Is there a sign somewhere that says “Add your 2 cents here – charge $100”? Sure money helps and I’m all for people donating what they can, but money alone isn’t going to solve the problem. If we all donated $1,000 to the Town Council, they could buy a lot more strychnine. My donations went to Saga – they are the ones who are trying to make a difference.

I still cannot understand a society who would rather allow dogs and cats to continue multiplying and then when things get way out of control, spread poison haphazardly to kill off the surplus. Why would anyone have objections to an organization who spays and neuters as many of these animals as possible? Sure, spaying and neutering alone isn’t going to solve the problem. The solution to the problem isn’t so simple or one-sided. The problem also isn’t going to be solved by strychnine poisonings. All that does is put a temporary (and painful) band-aid on the problem. The problem will continue until people realize that simply killing all the unwanted, sick, or “extra” dogs and cats is not the answer. It will take a combination of efforts – education, spaying and neutering, vaccinations and health care, and unfortunately in some cases, euthanasia. As the proponents of strychnine have stated, it has been done this way since forever. Well, the problem keeps reoccurring, doesn’t it? Maybe it’s time these ancient methods are set aside and maybe the residents of SP need to be open to new ways. In addition to the ineffectiveness of the current practices, there is still the issue of the cruelty, inhumanity and safety. These dogs and cats did not ask to be born and starved just as a prelude to a torturous death. And they are not the only innocent creatures being mistreated. Some of you have brought up the “health” issue of having flea-ridden dogs roaming around. Have you ever considered the health issue of having strychnine laying around for your child to pick up - or perhaps a decaying carcass of an animal who was killed by strychnine? Have you ever thought about the possibility of your own dog accidentally being poisoned when you take him for a walk on the beach? Or do you feel that all dogs and cats should never leave the confines of a fenced yard (even on a leash)?

As to the comment about “caring for humans as much as dogs and cats” – Who are you to say that we AREN’T active in issues pertaining to humans? I believe there are 2 types of people here. The ones who care about ALL creatures (human or not) – and the ones who don’t give a rats ass. If you can’t have compassion for animals, you surely can’t have compassion for humans.

Island Junkie – you asked if anyone is willing to fork up the money for the chemicals? Bywarren said his vet friend was willing to at least offer it at cost. I’m not a wealthy person, but I will gladly donate $100 for this cause (as long as I know it is going to the proper hands). This (according to Bywarren’s figures) would cover the cost of chemicals to HUMANELY put down 200 animals in need. I will NOT donate this money if it will be used to simply kill off the surplus. With the donations of others to help keep the dogs and cats healthy and sterile, a lot less dogs and cats will require these chemicals.
Feel like matching my donation?

bywarren, it was nice to meet you at the Carib party, although you probably don't know who I was cause you were intent on meetin Bill. ;-) Anyway... I do appreciate the things you write very much, I also like the little coyote story.
I will be happy to match SeaJays donation. Give us the address to send it dude...
You? SAGA? Or friend, the vet?
Sincerely,
Hope

Well, congratulations to all of you. This might be a case where heated debate actually turns into actions instead of just words. I am spending the summer at my home in Arkansas and will return to Belize in September. If I were still in Belize I could much easier promote this effort and would be pleased to do so. I will still do all that I can from here and will continue when I return to Belize. I would first suggest that Saga give us a clearification on their position. Earlier in this topic I questioned their position on what should be done with the stray animals. If they do not consider euthanasia of unwanted animals an option, then I cannot support them. If they are willing to euthanize the animals as an alternative to them being poisoned and continue with the efforts in education and neutering and finding homes for wanted animals and not just returning them to the streets, then it would appear to me that they would be the ideal ones to receive the money as they would be doing either some or all of what most on this board seem to be advocating. It would not make sense to send money to me or my vet friend for the chemicals unless there is someone there to administer it. Having said all that, I will e-mail the directors of Saga that I know and ask if this is something they would consider. Any further suggestions or imput would be welcome.

I have purposely stayed out of this discussion for various reasons, but if this newest effort moves forward I would be more than happy to donate whatever money is needed. I met many animal lovers while in SP, and know that an educational campaign will only work once the present problem of strays is remedied. Too many families are plagued by the problems associated with starving and unloved pets (children bitten, garbage foraging, feces, etc) to listen to talk of reabilitation for these abandoned animals. I would never in a million years have thought that I would be willing to aid in the destruction of my canine friends, but these animals are already suffering a far worse fate than that of euthanization. As I have always promised my babies (Two dogs and a cat), I will not ever let them suffer. The strays on SP are suffering, and until this particular group of animals is put out of their misery (hopefully in a humane matter-but like others have said-this is really not my decision)no one in SP is going to be open to any discussion about helping alleviate future dog problems.

(again, is there a cremation facility there? if not, what then?)

Susan, we might be on to something here. If we beat up on each other enough, it looks like people will send us money. LOL

Thanks to all of you who have decided to join me in making a donation. I personally don’t need a clarification of Saga’s position – I will still make the donation to them as opposed to the Town Council. At least with the money in Saga’s hands, I know it will not be used for strychnine poisoning. Hopefully, they won’t need 200 doses of the chemicals for euthanasia and some of the money can go towards building a shelter or providing education or help defer costs of spaying and neutering. Although some people refuse to believe that spaying and neutering is a helpful part of controlling the over-population of animals, it has been proven over and over in many parts of the world. I hope there will be others out there offering donations – it doesn’t have to be $100 - $5 or $10 or $20 adds up. It doesn’t even have to be monetary. An hour of your time, a bag of food, supplies, or educational material – ANYTHING will help.

Consider this a challenge.

Let me preface my forthcoming statement by saying that I think this has shown that thru discussion and heated debate, positive results came come. So please view my comments as positive as that is how they are ment. I have read what Saga's objectives are and ask that you all give some thought to this. It is my view that Saga is in a perfect position to bring about positive and effective efforts to help the plight of the animals. But being the practical person that I am, I believe that these efforts must be obtainable and the limited resources available be allocated in the areas where they will produce tangable results. The idea of an animal shelter is one that is very noble and idealistic. The practical side is that there is not enough land available on AC to accomodate the people that are there let alone the animals. Therefore, I feel that the practical solution to the current animal problem is euthanasia of the unwanted animals as opposed to the horible alternative of poisoning, which is happening and will continue unless a workable alternative is found, and the neutering of animals who have owners that are willing to take care of them. I cannot accept the returning of the animals to the streets. So I would ask that all of us give thought to combining our effors and supporting a practical and workable solution even if it is not the ideal solution that we all would like. If those opposed to euthanasia would accept it as the lessor of the evils and those who advocate the poisoning as the quickest and time tested way of doing it combine their resources and solicit the help from others who have expressed the willingess to help and devote all of the available resources to a practical plan that will produce immediate and positive results, then I think we will have found a solution and made a difference.
PS: does this absurd scenario make any sense about setting obtainalble objectives. You have this young San Pedrano couple, born and raised by their family on Isla Bonita, that are ready to go on their own and start their family. But, it is suggested to them that they pack their bags and move somewhere else because there is no place for them to built a home on Isla Bonita. But we want them to know that in doing so, they will be doing it with the comfort of knowing that there is a place on Isla Bonita where the dogs are comfortalbly housed thanks to the generosity of those that have visited their island.
Remember fellow boarders, this is just my sarcastic way of provoking thought. It is well intended.

[This message has been edited by bywarren (edited 07-20-2002).]

One of the problems with the "round up and kill" (as opposed to "round up and spay/neuter") approach (even if the killing is to be done humanely and safely rather than by the current method) is that there is currently no attempt made to determine the status of the dogs. Many people who have dogs do not have fenced yards and unlike the US,there are no "leash laws." It is traditional (from what I can see) for most people to let their dogs hang out around their stores and houses, usually out of doors. And it is not apparently the practice (usually) for dogs to have collars.
As a result, every time there is a round up, people's pets are killed along with strays.
I would be very reluctant to suggest imposing on people something that would be expensive, so it seems to me that a very important first step would be to start an "ID and collar" campaign, with the collars to be given away free to people who need them. If the collars are freely available, perhaps the town board might pass an ordinance to require people to collar their dogs, as well as an education campaign (with volunteers going door to door) to get this accomplished.
The collars could be designed to allow people to write with indelible ink the name of the owner and whether the dog is spayed and/or neutered.
I agree that it is probably not practical to propose building a structure for a shelter, given as you say that there are a lot of people who don't have homes...but there are less expensive ways to create temporary shelters for dogs (and cats) who are in the process of being identified and adoption attempts made. I think right now its being done primarily in people's homes. All you need is a fenced in area with covers to shield the animals from sun and rain and volunteers to feed them. Surely there is some piece of land available that is currently not being used that could be "loaned" for such a purpose....?? (Outside the "high rent" beach areas, of course...) Tenting materials and portable fencing could be donated.
Seems to me that such an effort might generate overseas donations with the right publicity. Perhaps some of the dog/cat fancy magazines could be contacted? Magazines are often looking for content and so are newspapers. And it is not unheard of for a sympathetic media story to generate substantial donations.

all dogs go to heaven

Great progress has been made on this subject. Everyone's opinion has been considered.
This is an extremely difficult subject for me, having taken several of my family members to San Pedro. Husband and granddaughter, love cats and dogs more than anything. We all enjoyed the healthy happy animals in San Pedro, but the sick ones broke our hearts. Healthy ones gave us an added bonus on vacation, most vacation spots you don't get to see many cats and dogs, therefore you miss the interaction with animals, and miss your pets back home even more. Granddaughter has pictures of every cat and dog she saw in San Pedro, because she had made a new friend.

When a reasonable solution has been reached, you can count on my family making a contribution.

After spending the whole day yesterday in my vehicle - with my lab - driving to the closest airport - you can't hardly get to where I am for the summer from anywhere - to pick up my friends coming to visit me - who's plane was 3hr late and having another night to sleep on this dilemma, I find myself - contrary to what some of you might think of - as being one who is smack dab in the middle of this without having easy answers to the problems like we all would prefer to find. So, allow me to describe my position in hopes that if the rest of you can put yourself in my shoes ( I guess you could consider that a pun since I now have to wear shoes while living in San Pedro for fear of going barefoot and catching hook worm one more time ) maybe you can help with my dilemma. I wake up every morning, put my shoes on, go out to scrub my porch because the dog that I gave my table scraps to and left water for, slept on it and the flies attracted by the open sores on the dog won't leave until the porch is cleaned. After that, I go to get in my golf cart to begin another hectic day of retirerment in Belize, but I must first wash the tires to get rid of the smell coming from the dog feces that I ran over coming home from Fido's in the dark last night. After doing that I nearly get into an accident swerving to miss the dog that is chasing a screeming young child across the street. Deciding that this day is just not going well, I make the decision to return to my condo, make myself a bloody mary, and try not to become to depressed while thinking of the plight of the animals soon to be poisoned, feeling some emotions of anger at the town council for doing that, but then realizing that they are addressing, as they are ellected to do, the immediate problem, a problem that I agree exists, albeit in by means that I do not agree with, and then falling into a deep state of frustration, needing a stronger bloody mary, because I can't find all the answers to solve this dilemma in ways that are all acceptable to me. Frustrated because I do not want to lend my support to the town council, even though they are solving THEIR problem, on THEIR island, in THEIR ways, which ultimatly solves some of my problems, and stubornly and probably wrongly, not wanting to support Saga because they are not addressing the immediate problem giving me that instant solution that I want, but spending their resources in ways that will only benefit me down the road. For those of you contemplating retirerment in Belize, that is what you have to look forward to. The grass isn't - I meen the sand isn't always whiter.

OK, that is an attempt at humor to bring focus and stimutate further thought on what is a serious problem needing people to come together and find some solutions. HELP!

Bywarren, I understand your thinking, one thinks alot while driving a car, thoughts fall into REAL TIME.

The animal situation is MOST difficult, no QUICK fix or Quick solution. Therefore we tend to take the path of least resistance. That is why I said in my post this is a difficult subject for me.

Well, one of the things that happens when you get OLD (er) is that you begin to look at things from a more cosmic perspective and to understand that nothing worthwhile is ever achieved overnight. Real change is rarely produced by a great leader doing a dramatic thing, but rather, by lots of ordinary folks doing little things, one day at a time and joining together to help each other do more of them.
No one person can change anything alone; social change happens one person at a time until it reaches that level of critical mass when change bubbles up and manifests a tangible result (the hundredth monkey syndrome).
Compared with most of the social problems in the world right now, the issue of how to help the suffering unwanted animals of Ambergris Caye (and prevent the harm to humans that the condition of the animals can and does trigger) is not all that impossible.
What does it take? What actions might make the critical difference?
Fifty people donating $100 each?
A hundred people donating $25 each?
Ten high school kids taking flyers around?
Fifteen people donating two hours a week to help at the clinic?
One company donating 100 dog collars?
One person or corporation donating (temporarily) a piece of land?
Five companies donating shelter stuff?
Ten people appearing at a town board meeting to talk about more humane methods of animal population control instead of poisoning?
A hundred people signing a petition?
Ten letters to the editor?
Five newspaper stories (generating more donations?)
Ten people in San Pedro talking to their neighbors about spaying and neutering, this week? Twenty people next week?
Five more San Pedranos agreeing to get their animals spayed and neutered next month?
Ten more the following month?
I could go on but you get the picture...
None of this is impossible. You may not notice the change today but in six months you will see it and in a year it will be dramatic, if only we do our parts, each of us, and if we talk to others about doing theirs.
The hundredth monkey is just around the corner.

I don’t think anyone denies that AC has a problem with stray dogs and cats. I think the only things some of us object to is the practice of indiscriminate strychnine poisoning and the refusal to accept other means of controlling the dog and cat population. For those of you who object to the term “murder”, perhaps “slaughter” is more acceptable. This practice of haphazardly spreading strychnine not only “slaughters” the unwanted strays in a horrendous cruel manner, it also “slaughters” the beloved pets that are being cared for (not to mention many other creatures of nature). Hopefully it won’t take the death of a child to open some eyes. Health concerns of the human population is one point that is argued by the pro-strychnine people i.e. worms. Isn’t anyone concerned with the health problems caused by decaying carcasses of these animals? Maybe it’s easier for some to just not think about what is being done, but I can’t with a good conscience turn away and forget about it. If everyone continues to accept the present methods simply because it’s too much trouble to try to bring about change, then nothing ever will change. But change is possible with the help of all people who care. This has been evidenced by many causes worldwide. Unfortunately, 5 or 10 people donating a few bucks can’t do it. I’m not saying our donations won’t help – every little bit helps. Somehow, more attention must be brought to this matter. The few people who read this message board aren’t powerful enough to bring about any action. I can say I will not return to AC until things change, but I don’t think the Town Council is really concerned with the few dollars I might spend there. On the other hand, tourism is big business on AC (perhaps the biggest). If they saw a big decline in that income, they may be more willing to listen to reason. Perhaps besides donating our time and money to a program that supports spaying and neutering, we need to bring this matter to the attention of as many people as possible. Does anyone have any suggestions for organizations, magazines, or other publications that might help us do this? I’m thinking maybe on the lines of animal rights organizations, tourism publications, etc.

After writing this, I read Susan’s post and I agree with her 100%. None of us can do this alone, but if nobody starts the ball rolling, nothing ever will be done. Our little message board is just the FIRST step in ending what a lot of us consider to be an atrocity.

seajay touches on a good point not covered.

speaking only on the topic of poisoning, how do they keep this poison from natural wildlife? i am sure many carnivorous or omnivorous birds, rodents, insects, etc have learned to scavange. wouldn't they eat it too? and if it is just left about, won't it get into the water supply sooner or later?

i am no attorney, and am apolitical at best, but these seem like obvious concerns. is anyone watching the wildlife or environment regarding this? and again, what are they doing with the bodies? (sorry to be morbid, but pretending doesn't make it go away). i believe this is a health issue too.

SeaJay: trust me on this one. You will get alot farther swaying the hearts and minds of the Belize people using sugar rather than vinager. Besides, there are alot of people in Belize dependant on tourism that disagree with the poisoning. SweetJane, don't get a complex about people not answering your question. It is just that the answer is not what you want to hear. And Susan, I like your math. Here is a little more. There are about 30 people that have taken the time to respond to this issue. If they each have 5 friends that would get involved, the math equals 150. You are very right, it can add up. But the way I look at this is, a program of neutering and education will definatly bring about positive results in the future. That is one issue. If you want to address the present issue of the poisoning and make the only realistic difference that can be made, it only takes 50 cents per animal and someone willing to give the injection. Unless that happens and until the overpopulation gets under control, the facts are, they are going to use the "old ways".

[This message has been edited by bywarren (edited 07-21-2002).]

(then maybe it should be heard)

We cannot think of "TIME" as linear, since it is constantly in motion. Yesterday's future is today. Today's future is tomorrow's present and eventually, tomorrow's past. Every moment in time is, simultaneously, the past, the present and the future. They are indistinguishable.
As I write this, there is undoubtedly at least one dog and or cat busy conceiving an unwanted litter. If that litter had been prevented, three months from now there would be 3 or 4 LESS unwanted puppies or kittens.
By aggressively promoting AND CARRYING OUT spaying and neutering RIGHT NOW we are preventing the unnececessary "execution" (by one means or another) of several animals 6 months from now.
When I was young, tomorrow was an eon away. Now, it comes all too soon. Let us not dither today merely because the result of our inaction has yet to manfest. It will be tomorrow soon enough. If we can't prevent yesterday's wrongs or even today's, let us at least act NOW to try to prevent tomorrow's.
Yesterday I sent another donation to SAGA via the credit card donation form on the SAGA web site. Who else will do this NOW?

Think about this.
Fact: The Town has and is using poison to control the unwanted animal population.
Fact: Euthanasia produces the same results that the Town wants and is determined to get.
Fact: Euthanasia saves the animals from the pain and suffering that they are and will endure if nothing else is done.
Fact: No better alternative has been offered that will address this immediate problem.
Now, if we concentrate all of our resources and efforts on very good programs that will help with this situation in the future and do not actively promote the immediate replacement of poisoning with euthanasia, are we not allowing the horrible deaths of these animals when we could be making a difference now? It seems to me that after all this rhetoric, there will be more people that will get involved and support neutering, education and facilities to aid the animals. That is good that will come from this. My question is, who are willing to make and support the difficult decisions that can make a difference now?

Bywarren - I think you are right about swaying with sugar as opposed to vinegar. I'm not necessarily proposing that we start a campaign of boycotting AC, but I think we may need help by some of these other sources to bring this problem to the attention of more people. I’m sure most people in the world have no idea what is going on in San Pedro. If only the few people from the message board are working on this, chances are, we would never have the resources to bring about a change. I’ve never been active in getting programs like this started, but I have participated in some that were put into action by others. There are people out there who are much more qualified to develop a program for dealing with this problem. Perhaps by notifying the proper agencies, someone would step in to show us how to do it. I started doing some searches for animal rights groups but some are extremely radical and some are pretty much oriented to strictly problems within the US. I was hoping someone would know of a group that could educate us in the best ways to help set up a program that works for everyone. Perhaps there is a group that would be willing to go to AC and investigate the current conditions (including but not limited to the examination of finances, practicality of a shelter, etc). Or maybe they would send someone who could talk to the people of San Pedro about responsible pet ownership, animal health care and the pros and cons of spay/neuter programs and humane euthanasia. I know I’m not the qualified person that we need, but I’m willing to help locate that person. Beyond this, the more people who are made aware of this problem, the more people there will be to draw on for donations of money and time.

Well, since there are many things that need to be done, there is room for everyone who cares to get involved to contribute. Since you feel strongly about euthanasia, why not approach the Saga Society about carrying it out? Even if the people running the organization have an aversion to euthanising healthy animals, they surely will (and in fact already have) performed euthanasia on sick animals who are unlikely to ever recover sufficiently to be adopted.
Why not start with them? From what I have seen, there are enough animals in that condition to keep the docs busy for awhile. On that issue, there is a need for addressing the issues that some people have raised, such as cremation, burial, etc. Those are practical concerns that need to be addressed.
At the same time, why not approach the town board and explain why the poisoning is wrong and propose that the board act affirmatively to make arrangements for the less gruesome alternative; even if the Saga staff won't do it, presumably they could find a visiting veterinarian who would do it.
And surely, there are many others who would be willing to speak strongly against the practice of targeting ALL dogs (even including those, as one poster commented, are in fenced yards (I believe she said "they throw it over the fence" which is inexplicable, despicable and the people who do this beneath contempt.) I do not see how the board can publicly defend that practice.
You could also ask the town board to initiate the collaring effort so as to distinguish the strays from the non strays.
So you see, there are things that YOU (and those who agree with you) can do right now, while the rest of us focus on the spaying and neutering. Even if we do not all necessarily agree on everything, there are some things that most of us agree on, and nobody should be asked to do something that violates their conscience.
Personally, I would not take an absolute stand against EVER euthanising healthy animals, because I agree that slow death by starvation and lack of care is worse. But I would not support it unless all other alternatives had been exhausted and that has not, to my mind, occurred. But we do not have to agree on that, because there are other things that we do agree on and you can act on those things that you personally feel morally OK with.
That is the nature of coalition building. Everyone does not necessarily have to agree on everything in order to work together on the things that they do agree on. On the other things, we act according to our own consciences.

It is this kind of coalition building that allows people with radically different views on sensitive moral issues to work together. For example: I am strongly pro choice, but I would have no problems working closely with someone who is anti choice (on abortion) towards goals that we might share, such as reducing the number of abortions by providing access to birth control, providing medical and food aid to poor pregnant women, etc. We don't have to agree on the underlying issue of the right to choose in order to work on ways to make it easier for women to not be forced into having abortions due to lack of birth control or poverty (I raise this issue not to be controversial, but to demonstrate how people can make common ground even when they disagree strongly on moral issues.)
The key is: You find the things that you DO agree on and work together on those, while working separately on the issues that you cannot reach agreement on. And when you cannot work together on some things, you work on your own or find others of like mind. But you don't just sit there and bemoan the fact that everyone doesn't agree with you on everything. That is never a valid excuse for doing nothing.

Seajay: I don't think its necessary to re invent the wheel. There already IS an organization that is doing a great job on the issue of animal care on Ambergris Caye - the Saga Society. They have a great deal of knowledge on all these issues and are well versed in public education methodology. The problem is that it is a very small core group of people with insufficient financial assets and not enough volunteers. We don't need to take over what they are doing, we just need to find ways to help them do it more effectively. They need financial support, public relations support, and political support. That's what we can do.
I would like to point out that the president of the Saga Board of Directors is also the editor of the San Pedro Sun. I am sure that she would be happy to sit down with any of us (virtually or in person) and talk about what we can do to help, although I think we pretty much know what kind of help is needed: Money, hands, and influence.

Susan - that approach works for me (supporting Saga in their efforts). Although I took some supplies to Saga, I haven’t yet sent in my financial support. I will, however get this done right away. I wish I could say I would do some volunteer work IN San Pedro, but I’m pretty much stuck here in California for the time being. Perhaps for now, my volunteer time could be spent trying to help find public relations or political support. If anyone has any suggestions as to how I can do this, I would appreciate it. I’ll start by trying to contact the president of the Saga Board of Directors and if anyone has any other ideas, please let me know. There seems to be some great help here on this message board, but perhaps we need to expand beyond here.

Susan: your comment that you would not support euthanasia until all other ways have been tried and that has not happend is the perfect example of the problem. The meer mention of the term euethanasia in the begining of this discussion created a polorizing effect. Many of you argued for your other, and I want to say, very good programs, but put little or no support to euthanasia. Some even argued that to support euthansia is cold hearted and evil. I have tried thru many different approaches to get people to realize that euthanasia must be used in combination with the other long range programs to effectivly make an immediate difference and save alot of suffering. Rememger the title of this topic is "urgent, San Pedro dogs". I think the work urgent has some meening here. I have e-mailed directors of Saga asking if they would support this. I have not received any answer. I am affraid that their priority is to finance the war and not fight the battle. If they look at this discussion and take the "poll", I am afraid they will decide that that my views are in the minority and if they were to embrace them, they would loose valuable support for the long range. So until enough people are willing to let Saga know they support this, since Saga is the only current organization in place to offer the alternative to the Town's approach and the one best suited to accomplish this, it will not happen. As long as people are only willing to give all their support to their idealistic approaches and in the absense of any effective alternative to poisoning other than euthanasia, the suffering will go on. Saga will tread lightly on the subject and use euthanasia only in exteme cases, not believing that the poisoning has created an extreme case. Botom line for me is, that until all who care about this realize that euthanasia is a neccesary part of solving this problem and give as much support to that part of the equation as they give to the other parts, ie: a unified combined approach, and convince all concerned that view is the majority, the poisoning will go on.

Warren

Very well put. Count me as a supporter.

Kayla

Well...sorry but I believe it is morally wrong to pell mell round up and euthanize healthy animals. I believe that before we kill a healthy, adoptable animal, we are obligated to:
1. Use every effort possible to ensure that the animal is in fact a stray, including instituting a collaring program and knocking on doors in the area where the animal was found to ensure that it does not have an owner, and a waiting period. This requires some sort of location to temporarily house the animals (I do not mean building a structure, see previous posts for how this can be accomplished inexpensively)
2. Spend a reasonable amount of time and effort trying to find a home for the animal, including providing medical services (like spay and neuter) that might make the difference in adoptability. There are people in San Pedro who would adopt an animal and feed it but do not have the financial resources to pay for spaying and neutering, innoculations, de-worming, etc. An effort should be made to provide those things if it means that a home will then be available.
These things require both monetary resources and volunteers, things which we on the board can provide at least some assistance with but of course the town and its people have to do their part as well. SAGA is already doing some of these things but they need HELP!
You say that SAGA has a strict no kill policy under any circumstances and I do not believe that is correct; I know that they have euthanised animals too sick to be deemed adoptable. I am not sure any of us know what the SAGA board's position is vis a vis euthanizing healthy animals, nor how the vets who are now in San Pedro assisting SAGA feel about it.
But they have a web site and I am sure the board members and the vets would be happy to discuss this among themselves and at their next meeting.
I am sure that at least some of the SAGA board members are reading this thread and thinking about the comments made here. I would not make assumptions about their position without hearing from them about it. The mere fact that, as of this morning, an email sent yesterday was not responded to, does not shed any light on what the response would be or will be.
The only light I can shed on this is that when I learned of what may have been the last poisoning activity, I phoned Bron and she said that the town board had promised that they would not initiate any more poisonings WITHOUT TALKING TO HER FIRST. It may be that that promise was broken. She said that she was going to be meeting with them to discuss this and I heard the same thing from Eileen Jamison. I do not know the results of that meeting.

Thanks bywarren, as usual, I agree with your well thought out opinions. Count me in.

SEAJAY (and everyone),
I've been busy this weekend, so haven't had time to catch up, and haven't thoroughly read all the new messages, but will say this for now...

I will meet your $100 challenge, Seajay, WHEN and IF a reasonable plan is instituted for the care of these animals – a plan that is agreed upon by Saga, the Town Council, etc. I won't put my money into it until I see a plan that will show some results.

As to your comment about not caring for humans, I fear I miss-communicated. I in no way meant to imply that you or anyone else did not care about humans or were not involved in causes pertaining to people. I only meant to say that if more people (people in general, not you specifically) had this much passion about the plight of people in the world, it would be a better place. That's all. I do care about animals as well, but my first priority is people – is that a crime? If so, I’m guilty, and proudly so. That doesn’t mean I don’t love animals.

My sole intention in my earlier comments was to spur people from talk to action. And, people are continuing to get involved, so I don't apologize for that.

I look forward to seeing the results of this discussion. Hopefully there will be some.

Peace

This will likely offend many people and I apologize, but I am going to take a step back from my emotions and throw in an opinion based on my limited understanding of our world.

Mother nature is cruel, populations in the wild are controlled by limited resources typically by a lack of food (IE starvation and predators. If an overabundance of food exists in a small area, then the population will increase to a level that the food will support but beyond what the environment will support. Disease is the result.

Those of you who think that the animals on San Pedro would be better off euthanized then
living wild and suffering from hunger and disease could also reason that the vast majority of animals on the planet would be better off euthanized. What the dogs on San Pedro are going through is typical of the life of animals on this planet. (Personnally if you gave me the choice of being euthanized or taking my chances with starvation and disease, I would choose the latter.)

There are two ways to naturally control the animal population on San Pedro. Introduce a
predator. (You scoffed when DesertDiver suggesting eating the animals, but it is a logical and natural solution.) Or limiting their food supply. The root of the problem is that there is too much food for the animals on too small of an island which is causing an overly large diseased population.

In an ideal world, resources would be infinite and animals and all their children would be allowed to live out their lives in peace with no worries, but unfortunately that is not reality for most. Even for humans the old laws of nature still apply in many parts of the the world though it is easy to forget in a country that is currently blessed with a surplus resources.

I guess the point that I am trying to make is that if you simply euthanize, neuter, or
poison a percentage of the animals on San Pedro the population will eventually grow back to the size that the food will support and you will have to repeat the process. A better long term solution might be a combination of euthanization and limiting the food supply(which I assume is primarily garbage). Also euthanization (although it sounds nice) may not be any less cruel than a natural death of starvation, disease, or predatation.

Well...your argument is correct in the abstract...but what happens "in the wild" without human intervention is not the same as what happens when humans do intervene. And the mere act of building towns and cities is the ultimate in human intervention.

If ALL dogs (and cats) are SPAYED AND NEUTERED, it does not matter how much food is available. They will not reproduce. Once the existing animals have lived out their normal live span there will be no more unless new ones are introduced.

Furthermore, the manifestation of the results of spaying and neutering will manifest within a few months: Every female that is spayed will have NO MORE LITTERS.
Every male dog that is neutered will stop engaging in breeding-triggered fighting.

So, there will be an almost immediate incremental alleviation of the dog problem.

Those of you who are considering withholding donations from SAGA until it "solves the problem" in its entirety are making a poor decision. What, in effect, you are saying is "I want this problem solved immediately and totally or I want NONE OF IT solved or ameliorated at all." Never in the history of humanity has any social problem been solved iin one fell swoop.

Would you withhold funds from cancer research organizations because they cannot promise you a cure for cancer next week? Will you withhold funds from your local battered womens' shelter because they cannot guarantee that never again will a woman in your community be beaten by her partner? Will you withhold funds from your church, synagogue or mosque because it cannot guarantee that none of its members will ever sin or behave incharitably towards anyone? Will you withhold funds from your local school district because every single child did not pass their standardized tests this year?

Reality check, folks: Change is always, ALWAYS, a series of small steps. People who do not take the first step for fear they will never be able to walk a mile go NOWHERE AT ALL.

Give what you can now, do what you can now. If we all sit on our butts until someone else produces a miracle for us we will gain nothing other than fat butts.

...I kind of like ChrisW's idea of "introducing a predator." This idea worked GREAT in Jamaica where I guess they wanted to curb the snake population... 'tough task what with those snakes being so sneaky, until WHA LA!!! someone had the bright idea to bring in mongoose. Good bye snake problem... uh, hello mongoose problem. What's a natural predator for Canis Lupus Familiaris??? Bobcat??? Jaguar maybe??? Bear??? Crocs???

This wouldn't count as a natural predator, but I am betting it would do the trick nicely. Plus they are endangered so you could say it was for a good cause
http://www.scz.org/animals/d/komodo.html

NOW we're getting somewhere!!! I'm going to instruct Bron that any/all further donations I make to Saga be put towards a concerted effort to introduce komodo dragons to Ambergris. Yes, from that point on small children would to remain indoors, but those mangy little potlickers sure would be taken care of quickly. And what could be more exciting for a tourist than to be snorkeling out at Hol Chan and come face to face with a 300lb lizard (they are excellent swimmers.)



[This message has been edited by SFJeff (edited 07-22-2002).]

Been out of town so I will jump right in.
My wife and I have been a supporter of Saga and we love the island dogs.But is there anyone ON the island who is a legal CITIZEN,with some position, approach someone on the town council and temporarly suspend the killing and listen to some humane ways to limit the growth of population.
Put some of your passion into finding local citizens to change ways from the INSIDE.Instead of chunkin' rocks from the outside.This would be a lot more faster.
While all of you keep debating this here in the comfort of our office the dogs are still being killed.
Start thinking WHO can help us THERE.

you know, i am keeping as quiet as i can here. but jeff, really. haven't you learned the history of introducing animals where they are not native? it is almost (almost, folks) always a disaster in the long run. (susan can probably quote examples better than i). if mom nature wanted komodo dragons on ac, they would be there.

don't poison the nature; don't change the nature.

now, more crocs would probably be more like it. at least they belong there. but people don't want a lot of crocs around.

the prob was bringing the dogs (& cats) down in the first place. sooner or later, i imagine they would become feral, possibly dangerous.

in addition to whatever you all decide on the other issues, let me pose this one on the food supply matter:

shouldn't the tourists stop feeding the strays so nature could sooner take its course?



[This message has been edited by sweetJane (edited 07-22-2002).]

...and while all of us are debating this in the comfort of our offices, an estimated 570 dogs/cats are being euthanized every HOUR in the United States (and this rather sobering statistic is a moderately conservative estimate.) ...not to get off the subject at hand, just want to remind folks that San Pedro by NO MEANS has the market cornered with respect to surplus amimal problems...

Susan has hit it on the head again – with her arguments in favor of SPAYING and NEUTERING and about withholding your support until a program is PROVEN.

1) If the parents of all the stray animals in San Pedro had been spayed or neutered a few years ago, there would be NO strays! The chances of 100% sterile females is unlikely but - by spaying just ONE female, you don’t just reduce the future population by the size of one litter, you reduce it by the size of that litter plus by the size of all litters that her offspring would produce. Do the math again – if she had 2 litters of 6 puppies in one year, the following year, (assuming that half of those puppies were female), those 6 female dogs would give birth to 72 puppies (12 each). By the 3rd year, there would be 36 females that could give birth to 432 puppies - 4th year – 216 females and 2,592 puppies and so on. This isn’t even counting the additional litters produced by the original female. Sure the survival rate would reduce that figure somewhat, but I think you can see my point. If you think 12 puppies in one year is a high estimate, do the math with just 6 puppies – the figure is still astounding. The fact remains that every time an animal is spayed, it prevents the unnecessary death of her future offspring AND their offspring. The benefits of neutering males is another story but no less valid.

2) If EVERYONE waits until a program is PROVEN, the program will never have a chance of getting to that point. It takes support to achieve that goal. By donating now instead of later, I’m hoping to help them achieve their goals. If anyone hasn’t read SAGA’S Mission and Objective, I’ll post them here:

Our Mission:
TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE TO THE HELPLESS, SUFFERING AND HOMELESS ANIMALS!
To be the flagship shelter and resource center for other areas in Belize, Central America and other third world countries that lack the necessary resources and expertise.
To have the first homeless animal shelter in the country of Belize
To control and monitor the cat and dog populations on Ambergris Caye
To prevent cruelty and promote kindness to all domestic and wild animals
To implement and maintain health standards for all animals To prevent tourists and citizens from possible "zoonoses" (infections from animals to man)
To promote sensible and responsible dog and cat ownership
To educate children and adults, in regards to animals and their care.
To make San Pedro a cleaner, safer and healthier community

Our Objectives:
Donations, donations, donations
To find a land donor for the shelter
To raise the necessary funds to enable us to build the animal shelter
To have an ongoing system of donations in order to maintain the shelter
Through education and results, our community will become more involved in solving these issues
To achieve all goals set forth in our mission statement

I don’t want a fat butt so I’m making my donation now.
I also agree with SEAWINGS in that an insider would be great help. Perhaps like Susan mentioned, we could find a way to bring someone like Eileen Jamison (board member and editor of the San Pedro Sun) into this discussion. Before I email her, does anyone have any ideas of any other insiders who might be of help?

SweetJane...

sarcasm

\Sar"casm\, n. [F. sarcasme, L. sarcasmus, Gr. sarkasmo`s, from sarka`zein to tear flesh like dogs, to bite the lips in rage, to speak bitterly, to sneer, fr. sa`rx, sa`rkos, flesh.] A keen, reproachful expression; a satirical remark uttered with some degree of scorn or contempt; a taunt; a gibe; a cutting jest.

I also requested help from a very wise friend of mine. He hasn’t finished reading all of our discussions here, but he did send me to a website that might be of some help to us. At first glance, I think there might be some very useful information and links here.
http://worldanimal.net/

"If ALL dogs (and cats) are SPAYED AND NEUTERED, it does not matter how much food is available. They will not reproduce. Once the existing animals have lived out their normal live span there will be no more unless new ones are introduced."

That is a commendable goal, but I do not think it is practical given the other numerous serious problems in Belize as well as the rest of the world and given the resources available to address those problems.

The blunt truth of it may be that being kind to animals is a luxury that few can afford. I take good care of my pets (all former strays) and I shudder at the thought of all the strays that are put down every day right here in my town. For what it is worth, I have saved a few out of millions and millions, but I could see that if I were poor that I may not have saved any...

Edit: I don't think you can reduce an animal population by neutering 10 or 20% of a population. By doing so, you will increase the survival rate of the remaining youngters as the competition for resources would be reduced. I am not sure what the magic number would be, but it has to be darn close to 100%.

Lets say for example that the food supply on AC can support 10,000 animals and that poulation has reached its full potential. At that point animal begin to die from starvation and other causes at the same rate at which they are being born so the population is stable. Now neuter 80% of the animals. As the neutered 80% begin to die off, resources become available. To keep the population stable at 10,000 animals, the unneutered 20% only has to grow at the same rate the 80% population is shrinking. The population of cats and dogs can grow at an amazing rate (20% of 10,000 = 2,000 so maybe 12,000 babies per year) given available resources. So I doubt the 20% would have any problems keeping the population at its maximum of 10,000.


[This message has been edited by ChrisW (edited 07-22-2002).]

SF Jeff – your comment about the US also having a surplus animal problem is true. The big difference lies in how the surplus is handled (I’m referring to the strychnine poisonings). In addition, your figure of 570 per hour would probably be more like 10,000 an hour (just a guess) if the US didn’t incorporate spaying and neutering into their animal control programs. Can’t hurt to support both (at home and abroad).

...I pointed out the US figures simply because often it's all too easy to blissfully forget about problems that do not stare you in the face. On Ambergris, the surplus animal problem is obvious/evident because they are in plain sight/in fornt of you. In the states, the problem is, oh, a million times larger, but unless we volunteer at a shelter we are not confronted with it every day. Yes, people should support efforts everywhere they can, which is why my wife and I both have rescued animals here in the states and have been strong supporters of Saga...

SF Jeff – I was agreeing with your comment. I only wanted to add to it Sorry if it came across as an attack. You brought up a very good point – we can’t forget about our own dog and cat over-population problems.

Anybody on the island willing to help out with these issues???????

Bring in some Koreans.

Why ask whether there is "anybody on the island willing to help?" There already iS an organization, with active members and professional volunteers, who are very involved in the animal care issue. They are doing an excellent job within the limits of their finacial and political resources.
They do FREE spaying and neutering, and they round up animals in need of same. They respond to calls (when possible) to pick up animals in need of spaying, neutering and veterinary care. They have a pilot programfor children on animal care. They lobby the town board.
They need us to SUPPORT them, with money, publicity and lobbying. Instead of trying to re invent the wheel, why not look to them for leadership and then do what is requested of us, to the extent possible?
To the person who doesn't want to contribute unless the government gets into the act: Waiting for GOVERNMENT (at any level) to lead anything is a guaranteed recipe for ACCOMPLISHING NOTHING. Goverments do not lead: They MAY (if you are really good at raising hell) FOLLOW occasionally.
It should be obvious by now that the animal care effort will be done by the private sector. The most we can hope for from the town board right now is to stop poisoining animals (in streets and in private yards) and at least THINK about having the very limited resources they apply to the poisoning used in better ways and to negotiate with SAGA and community animal activists alternatives to the poisoning.
Those of us who are interested in helping should send SAGA emails telling what we are each willing to do and asking how we can best do it. Just go to their web site.

Reprinted from the San Pedro Sun (I'm sure they would not mind): A story on what SAGA Society is doing. (Because some of you seem to be unaware of what is being done locally to care for stray animals).
If we on this list multiply their resources by ten, they could do ten times as much of these things. Perhaps they could hire a couple of young people to work part time to supplement the volunteer efforts. We on this list can contribute to those results by going to their home page (on this web site) and donating and emailing them to ask if there is anything else we can do:
SAGA elects new Board of Directors
re-printed from the San Pedro Sun

Dr. Bronwen Eastwood politely accepted her re-appointment as Director of SAGA Society last Thursday at Caruso Italian Restaurant in the SunBreeze Hotel. Thanking the outgoing board of directors for their dedication and service over the past two years, the leader of the island's "humane society" deemed their efforts "the key to SAGA's continuous success". Graciously stepping down from service to the organization to make room for "new blood" were Lane Llewellyn, Ruben Gonzalez and Area Representative Patty Arceo. Elected or re-elected for the 2001-2002 term of office were Director Dr. Bron Eastwood, Chairperson/Secretary Eileen Jamison, Treasurer Sari Frank and directors Ramon Nuñez, Mary Hawthorne and Alberto Villanueva Jr.

Introduced at the meeting were Mr. Steve Peterson and his wife Trish who addressed the gathering with an update on the society's 501C3 Tax Exempt status in the United States. Mr. Peterson, an attorney with the US Navy, has generously donated 200 hours of his professional time to obtain this status. As of this week, the society is registered in the state of Texas as the Belize SAGA Society Foundation, Inc., a Texas Non Profit Corporation, which will enable the organization to solicit tax-exempt donations from foundations and private individuals in that country. Trish Peterson, a "veteran" of several non-profit organizations, was established as the treasurer on behalf of the foundation directors in the States, who will include the existing SAGA directors holding US citizenship as well. The visiting couple, who intend to retire on the island within a year, then informed that approval of the 501C3 status should be complete in approximately four to six months. The group applauded and thanked Mr. and Mrs. Peterson for the extreme kindness and wished them success in all their efforts.

Dr. Eastwood then gave a report on the society's activities for this year. Included was an update on new membership from January to June 2001 which consisted of six lifetime, eleven annual and three family members. Money collected for the six-month period was reported to be as much as the entire total of last year's donations which pleased the directors. This was attributed to many factors, the most significant being the society's newsletter and the SAGA website on ambergriscaye.com, generously donated, designed and maintained by Marty Casado. Both information sources were reported to generate a wealth of income.

Dr. Eastwood then informed of the many strays who have benefited as a result of this financial gain. Animals sterilized in the Spay/Neuter Program during the aforementioned period were: dogs - 18 females, six males; cats - four females, three males. Saga also assisted financially with the sterilization of six females and one male dog. Animals treated within this time frame were: 17 adult dogs, five adult cats and numerous puppies. With the assistance of several more-than-helpful volunteers, the SAGA Adoption Program has successfully "homed" the following strays in the past six months: six adults dogs (via homes in the US) and 33 puppies; two adult cats and sixteen kittens. ("Foster Families" are currently sheltering numerous animals who await loving homes.) Those less fortunate who needed to find "lasting peace,"( seven dogs and one cat) were humanely laid to rest.

New business was discussed next and included the recent filing of an application for Non-Governmental Organization (NGO) status with the government of Belize to assist in acceptance for grants. Also work continues on the application to the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (RSPCA) in the United Kingdom. Land for the society's shelter is still being investigated and will be reported on in an upcoming meeting. A variety of fundraising activities will also be decided on at that time. Also mentioned was the possible contribution of a SAGA space on the 5-A-Side Court advertising wall. The creation of a new poster and more donation boxes was also discussed. It was further announced that Mr. Santiago Castillo, of Santino's - The Poor Man's Store in Belize City, is kindly donating a fifty-pound bag of dog food every month to the animals of SAGA Society.

The Director then announced in order to encourage participation and maintain communication with SAGA members and the general population, monthly meetings would be held. Open meetings for members and the general public will now take place the first Thursday of every month at Ramon's Village at 6:00 p.m. Anyone wishing to participate in the society's work in any manner is welcome to attend. For more information, phone 3266.

As a resident of San Pedro and a director of SAGA I would like to update everyone on the situation here and the objectives of the society.

Members of Saga met this week with the island health inspector and the recent occurences of poisoning (which were undertaken by a temporary inspector to the island) have stopped. The health inspector, town board and mayor are fully behind SAGA in respect to controlling the animal population (in a humane way) for the good of everyone.

SAGA does have a spay/neuter programme for stray animals BUT many animals with owners are not neutered and are allowed to roam freely. There is also no policy on tagging/collars and so we are often in danger of neutering (or worse destroying) someone's pet against their will. This will change over time with both the education program we are running in the schools and the license program we are working with the town board to implement. But none of this will happen overnight.

When a stray animal is taken to the clinic (we have rounded up many in the last few weeks) we do have to put down some - either due to disease or temperament. In many cases younger animals are found new homes (kittens and puppies are relatively easy to home) but the older animals are returned to the street. However having been neutered they are :
a) not reproducing
b) have no tendency to pack or attack
c) are healthier with only themselves to feed.

SAGA have never shied away from putting down an ill or dangerous animal. But a healthy neutered animal is not put down and we have numerous cases where such animals have later been adopted by either locals or tourists who have taken them home.

The issue of "stray" animals is not an easy one and I put stray in quotes because of the many that are seen this way at first glance, a high proportion have homes. Animals are not cossetted and fussed over here in the same way as in the US or UK - they are not seen as part of the family in the same way and I doubt ever will be.

SAGA will continue their work through the many unpaid volunteers on the island and we are grateful to all the support we receive from both locals and visitors. But change will not happen overnight as it is as much about education as action. We believe that change is happening - many locals now bring their pets for innoculation, neutering, etc. which was not happening a year or so ago.

So I thank everyone for their obvious interest and care of the animals and ask that you continue to support SAGA in their goals as we work with the community for humane animal care.