Carnival announces new cruise port for Belize

It would be the largest single private investment in
the nation's history, but tonight there are more
questions than answers surrounding the
announcement of plans to build a huge new cruise
terminal near the port in Belize City. The official
unveiling came in the form of a press release issued
last night by Belize Ports Limited, which announced
that the Belizean company had reached an agreement
with Carnival Corporation, the world's largest cruise
company, to construct a pier and related facilities to
handle two mega-ships simultaneously. The cost: one
hundred million Belize dollars. Construction should
begin by year's end and be completed within eighteen
months. The implications of the project are
staggering, for many reasons. Firstly, by allowing
direct access to the mainland, the cruise port makes
Belize a far more attractive cruise destination, as it
eliminates the problems associated with tendering
passengers to and from ships anchored at sea.
Secondly, it ties Carnival--and its thirteen different
lines--to Belize for at least twenty-five years and
eliminates much of the uncertainty typically
associated with the cruise industry. Thirdly--and this
may not please everyone--it sets Belize's tourism
industry on an irreversible path of radically increased
cruise tourism. And while that path may have a
significant economic impact in some areas, like Belize
City, it will place a staggering strain on existing
tourism destinations and natural resources. And if not
handled properly, could threaten the health of the
nation's traditional overnight tourism industry, an
industry which has achieved its present vitality by
promoting Belize's pristine beauty and intimate nature
of the eco-tourism product. We wanted to hear more
about some of these issues, but Belize Ports Limited's
Luke Espat said that he would not speak until
tomorrow. Okay...so we turned to the Director of
Tourism, the one official who could certainly enlighten
us on the art of the deal and its potential impact on
the Jewel. And here's where we received a shock.
Director of Tourism Tracy Taegar told News 5 she has
no knowledge of any such proposal or negotiation and
therefore could not comment on the impact such a
project would have on the Belize tourism scene. If
you're confused, join the club. Hopefully by tomorrow's
newscast we'll have a few answers.
============
this reeks.

Email Said Musa and/or any other politicos that you can think of.

Nothing happens this fast in Belize. I think it's good, and will help Belize thrive locally in the global economy.

This is BAD news. More cruise ships and bigger docking facilities are not what Belize needs, IMHO. The infrastructure & delicate sites cannot support what is already coming in!

Where do the cruise ships go now? Is it mostly Belize City, or do they get anywhere near AC? (Please tell me they don't...)

I assume the market analysis conducted by Carnival Cruise Lines suggested the opposite.

Good or Bad - I bought some land in Puerto Vallarta in 1981-I had only heard of the place from the "Love Boat" series until I visited the place which I found to be relatively idyllic-look at what has happened the residents of Jallisco have benefited hugely from the cruise boats and from tourism in general.
If Belize invests in infrastructure,and the gov't allows everyone to make a few shillings (rather than the favoured few)-it will be a definite bonus-what Mexico realised was to keep the monies in the country,and allow the general people to prosper-thereby developing a true middle class which is the bedrock of stability in most countries.

I'm not a fan of cruise mass tourism, but I see the value of it to at least part of the tourism industry and potentially to the country.

What stumps me, though, is the decision -- if it is a decision -- to build in Belize City. If I were Carnival's marketing director I'd want it at Big Creek.

Belize City's crime and other problems are going to bite the cruise lines one of these days.

At one time, most cruise ships in the Caribbean stopped at Kingston, Jamaica, too. But now you can't get a tourist to go to Kingston because of the crime.

I've always held that the easiest way to double tourism overnight in Belize is to build a new international airport somewhere other than Ladyville, say in the south or in Cayo, so people don't have go to or near Belize City.

--Lan Sluder

Please keep us posted on any developments....if Carnival books special eco-cruises to Belize it may be a good thing...regular American turistas could be too much for Belize to handle....

Interesting, in light of what Pedro says about BTB making it hard for the small guy who markets to "backpackers" to get started. Backpackers may pay less per night, but they generally stay longer, spending $$ with the Mom n Pops of Belize.

Cruise ship numbers are deceptive. The "arrivals" in a certain year jump when you bring in a 2,500 passenger ship that spends a day. Thus, with tourism #s up, BTB looks good on paper, people get re-elected and keep their jobs, but is any real $$ coming in and where does it go?

Maybe BTB is being myopic in their approach to tourism? Again? Still? What a surprise.

I can see what the idea is, but promoting Belize this way can go two directions, and I fear for the worst:

The tourism we have suffers from cruise ships, as does our fragile nature. Belize is just not made for mass tourism, and what do we need it for?; we don't have that many mouths to feed; in Belize the profit will rather be for the favoured few.

This can lead to an anti promotion, along with, as Lan says, small criminality in Belize City. The Cruise ship cattle is already briefed on sea about the dangers in Belize City. Ask any Cruise ship tourist what their impression about Belize was, and it will be: "Very dangerous place".

This is not the image we want to spread, also keeping in mind that it is a false image!

Conclusion: Definitely bad news.

This is another example the short term greed of many in Belize. Belize is unique in what is has to offer and should develop it’s tourism industry around it’s uniqueness understanding that many of the natural resources and assets that Belize has are very fragile and must be utilized in ways that will preserve them for the future. If many of these fragile assets were to be squandered, Belize would be left with little for it’s people to prosper from in the long term.

I have talked with many tourists that were vacationing in Belize for a week or more, spending thousands of dollars staying in lodges, hiring tour guides and eating in restaurants only to have their vacation experiences diminished by going to Altun Ha only to find numerous buses with cruise people crawling over the ruins like ants, going to the river to cave tube only to be greeted by hoards of cruise people tubes bumping into one and other, etc.

Belize would be much better served by it’s government and tourist board if they developed tourism with the primary goal of growing tourism in ways that would emphasize the long term viability of the industry and the preservation of natural resources realizing that there is a limit as to how many tourists Belize can handle without reaching the point of diminishing returns. The short term greed of getting masses of cruise passengers that spend 50 dollars that mainly goes to the cruise line and a few bus drivers to the detriment of the tourists wanting to come to Belize to vacation for a week or two is unfortunate. More is not always better.

Bywarren, as usual brilliant post.

Cruise ships are still one of the cheaper ways of traveling…
What about the tourists who really stay and spend their money here in Belize??
When they go for example on a trip on "a cruise ship day" they get overwhelmed by all those horrible groups of people, who leave trash in a short time, make allot of noise and they don't respect the nature at all.
They say that it's good for the economy, but it's ONLY for those who participate in it, for the ones who have only $$$ signs in their eyes, and for those who don't think further. Belize needs to keep her good reputation. This is such a beautiful country!
Hey but it's the BTB who says "Belize: Mother Nature's best kept secret", it's just that I think they have to keep it that way.
So Marty, it is bad news. Let's hope for the best.

Another way to look at it is, one tourist staying in Belize for a week spending $1000 is equal to 20 cruise passengers spending $50. And, putting twenty times less strain on the environment with that $1000 going to support all the people who rent the rooms, clean the rooms, guide them, cook for them, etc, etc. not just the cruise line and a bus driver. Oh, and the politicians getting the kick backs.

Now if one accepts the premise that Belize and it’s environment can handle a finite not an infinite number of tourists before the strain on the enviornment begin to cause lasting and, in some cases, irreversible damage, not to mention the damage to Belize’s image as a pristine, eco-tourist destination, then the question of whether or not to promote mass tourism in the form of cruise passengers as opposed to attracting the tourist that comes and stays for a week or two should be a question easily answered if those given that responsibility answer it based on what is best for all of the Belizean people and not just what is best for a few in the short term.

PS: this should be a call to arms for all of you that have invested in tourism in Belize. It is your livelihood along with the future of Belize that is at stake.

Marty (or Katie) - do you have any email addresses for those with any clout? Said Musa, Mark Espat (minister of tourism), etc.

Mossback my trade license cost almost as much as Ramon's and the same as Bananas-the BTB campaigned against having a hostel or a Backpackers place on AC(or for that matter anywhere in Belize) and it is now called Pedro's Inn-is this what you call help

Has anybody actually successfully fought off the onslaught of cruise ships? It seems like an impossible battle to win. The government makes heaps of fast easy money on dockage fees and whatever so they will be gung-ho behind it. The goverment easily convinces the business owners that cruise ships are the best thing since sliced bread by waving a few charts showing increased revenues around.

So the little guy is left to fight the politicians and the business owners. Good luck cause you are going to need.

Of course, you could always hope the Norwalk virus becomes epedemic...

There are many pros and cons on this potential avenue. The bottom line IS the bottom line. It's simply all about money.

Let me ask... how many people who go on a cruise to a destination, more often than not return to that destination via airlines and stay at some of the places they *briefly* visited on the cruise.

Granted the people of Belize that will make out, in the beginning, will be the people on the mainland. The ratio of visitors waiting around for a flight or boat to AC will be small. This is where the people of AC need to put on their thinking caps... and draw those people to the island. It CAN be done, but it doesn't JUST happen by itself.

Barb, an email doesn't work; politicians listen to money and votes. Get some organisations involved like Chaimber of Commerce (BZ/AC), BHA, BTIA, SPTGA and/or Green Reef.

I believe the cruise ship port would help Belize but i am not certain that B.C. is the best spot for it. Belize city is crowded and people come to belize to get away from it all. But having a cruise port would get tourists to belize that would not have come otherwise. And maybe they will return again.

On other posts it was hammered into the ground about the abundance of trash on the beaches..... I know there are people in San Pedro who work around the clock to keep it picked up, but not in all areas..... Where do you thing that trash comes from???? It's common knowledge that cruise ships dump their garbage.... It's been filmed and documented. Do you think they will stop committing this hideous crime just because Belize is touted as being a pristine eco-tourism stop? NOT!!!!! Do you think it (the trash)will get hung up in the reefs? CERTAINLY!!! Will it have an impact on the coral, the fish, and wildlife? CERTAINLY. I've already read on this board that there is a decline in the numbers of fish and rays at the snorkel stops. Boats are stacked up bow to stern. How will these places accomodate more? I understand the need for money and tourism, but why shoot yourself in the foot? I'm shocked at the ease with which this decision was made. It wasn't thought through very well at all. ByWarren, my hat is off to you once again. A pillar of wisdom. Thank you for your post.
Debbie

Don't look for much "trickle down" with the Cruise Ship Industry. Local boat shuttlers have been averted. Local resturants are averted. This is the millionaire boys club at its worst.

Debbie,
I'm a new member, but I fully agree with you!!

The mistake the Belize government and some of you are making is the belief that the more people that come to Belize the better. The thinking is that more money will come in and that is all that matters. The analogy to Mexico and how it handled large increases in tourism is worth studying. What Mexico did was build the infrastructure to handle the volume of tourists before the tourists came. Putting aside for a moment the debate on how many tourists Belize can handle before it damages the ecology ( a number, by the way, I do not believe anyone in Belize government has given any thought to determining ) let’s look at what level of investment Belize has made into providing the infrastructure to handle the masses of tourists it is trying to attract. Belize is a country of less than 300K people. It cannot provide adequate power and water for the population now. Hell, it has to buy it’s power from Mexico. I won’t even get into the sewage and garbage disposal problems along with all the other infrastructure needs. The idea that Belize can bring in the tourists first and then worry about providing the infrastructure is laden with serious pitfalls and consequences.

Belize is experiencing record growth in overnight arrivals every month. It should concentrate on handling that which is a big enough task before it inundates the country with hundreds of thousands of cruise passengers. Good business sense dictates that you make the investment to handle the business before you bring in the business. A business that grows at a pace it can handle is much better of in the long run than one that allows growth which outpaces that ability.. Greed has it’s disadvantages.

is this a size isnt everything issue?

From what I have seen of the cruise ship folks (in Grand Cayman, St Maarten, Cozumel), They come in in a storm of loud shirts, dark shoes and socks, very white skin. Loud, pushy, do a few tours, buy a few trinkets and then scoot back to the mothership where their meals are already paid for.

I recently met someone who had visited Belize on a cruise. He spent his one day in Belize City, while I split a week between Cayo and AC. Our impressions of Belize were drastically different. My trip exposed me to natural beauty and incredibly friendly people. His trip exposed him to lunch at a restaurant owned by the cousin of his wife's co-worker from the Middle East. I learned that Belizeans are proud, while he learned that Belizeans are lazy. I felt bad for him for missing out on so much. Belize is too diverse to experience it properly in one day. I'm not anti-cruise, but I think there are destinations more appropriate for a daytrip.

i agree with you janet....i know someone who went to belize on a cruise ship....he couldn't understand what i was talking about, when i told him how much i loved the country.....belize is not a place to visit for a day.....rushed in and out....time frames to meet....his vision of my paradise, was overwhelming....

Here's my opinion... and I wont be nice. We call the cruise ship people... the toilet flushers. They come to our businesses, dont spend any money, and ask to use the bathroom. Can Caye Caulker handle 300 more toilet flushes each day? I dont think so.

You'd rather they didn't flush?

Blah, cruise ships......there goes the neighborhood

ecotourism destinations really need to limit cruiseships, and I really never understood why these destinations allowed them at all.

haha, Bill! Silk, you should have separate facilities for the cruisers (think outhouse) with no TP!!!

silkpainter: if you really feel that way, why don't you put up a sign, NO CRUISE PEOPLE ALLOWED?
Even if the government allows it's greed to show, the business communtiy doesn't have to.

Short had the right advice. If those involved in the tourists industry in Belize don't want cruise people, problem solved. No matter what the government's position is on this, it is a business matter, and the business community has control over it's destiny.

PS: my suggestion for your next add: No Shoes, No Shirts, No Problem, Cruise People, Problem.

Oh, and don't forget "Have a Nice Day" :p

YA! and to differentiate cruisers from other tourists, they should be branded with a big red "C" on their foreheads!

Let's be fair here. There are a lot of nice people that take cruises. I have taken cruises, see that proves the point. Seriously, it is not the person taking the cruise that is the problem. There are a lot of destinations that have made that "investment" and provided for the cruise business. Belize has not. Just having a dock and a tourist village will not make Belize what it needs to be in order to handle cruise business.

If you throw a party at your house and invite a bunch of guests and do not have the facilities to handle them, it is not the guests fault.

Banyan Bay is a good example. It started out "hosting" the cruise people. It did not take long for the overnight guest's complaints to make the management realize it could not have it both ways. It realized the guest staying there was more important than the cruise business. Belize and all it's businesses need to make a choice.

too bad Tropica doesn't follow suit, it looks like a nice place, but who would want to book a room there knowing hordes of daytrippers will be invading the beach?

You are right Warren, and as you and others have pointed out, Belize is going about this backwards, if they have to do it at all - the infrastructure is not there.

The point I was trying to make about branding the cruisers - how do merchants tell the difference between the two? I know, I know....cruisers are the ones with the sandals and black socks who don't spend any money, and just want to use the bathrooms!!!

Place a plain ole sign...NO BATHROOMS AVAILABLE

Someone should start a 'port-a-potty' business, but I bet it's hard to move all that crap. Go with the signs

We too loved the cruises. It pointed out to us where we did NOT want to live in the future. So there is good in it, in that respect.

Plus, the weight gain was way tooooo much.

dbdoberman: you are right, it is backwards. After coming to Belize 35 years ago, I still do not understand "Belize Sense" it is so different from common sense.

PS: silkpainter, if you think a sign might be too impolite, even if you end it with "have a nice day", maybe pay toilets are the answer.

I have heard that in other places, (not sure where. Can anyone help on this? Caymans? ) the cruise lines literally purchased their own little island for their guests. The crusie stop allowed all the people off on their private island to swim, snorkel, lunch etc. and then off they went. They never even bothered the other islands or mainland if there was one. The government still received the port fees for the country and the masses stayed isolated. If this was possible in Belize (and I have no clue if it is)I think the tourists would get an even better taste of Belize than going to crime ridden Belize City for the day. They get a small taste of paradise and then want to return as the week long guest spending REAL money.
Debbie

To answer your question, Debbie http://www.1-800-cruises.com/travel.dll/...ource_num=12514

Carnival Corp. confirms cruise port

Well it's official...the world's
biggest cruise line is setting up
shop in Belize... for a long, long
time. This afternoon, officials
from Carnival Corporation in
Miami officially confirmed to
News 5 that the company has
reached an agreement with
Belize Ports Limited to construct a new cruise
terminal facility at the port...a deal which would see
many more Carnival cruise ships calling on Belize for
a projected period of at least twenty-five years.
According to Carnival's spokesperson, Jennifer De
La Cruz, motivation for the investment came from
what she calls, a positive experience in Belize and
the chance to do away with the hassle of tendering
passengers from ship to shore.

Jennifer De La Cruz, Spokesperson, Carnival (Via
Phone)
"We always prefer to dock. Docking enables us to stay
longer in port. It has a positive impact on the number
of
guests that will get off the ship, that will spend money
in
port, and it also makes it much easier for the crew to
get off
ships and also spend money in port. Obviously, it's
operationally advantageous for us, so we would really
like to
have a facility in Belize, because we are very committed
to
bringing our ships there long term."

Janelle Chanona
"And you guys will be contributing how much of the
cost of the project?"

Jennifer De La Cruz
"The cost of the project will be shared by the project
partners, which are Carnival Corp. and Belize Ports
Limited."

Janelle Chanona
"Those are the only two partners involved?

Jennifer De La Cruz
"Those are the two partners that I am aware of that are
involved in this specific project. I believe that Belize
Ports
Limited, while I can't speak on their behalf, may be
looking
at other investors to participate in port development
generally."

"It would be best if you confirmed that with them, but
in
terms of this specific port development project that
we're
talking about, this cruise ship facility that would be
able to
accommodate two vessels and would include an adjacent
welcome centre, and a transportation hub, that project
specifically involves Carnival Corp and Belize Ports
Limited."

Janelle Chanona
"Jennifer, are you aware that Royal Caribbean Limited
has recently signed an agreement with the Tourism
Village here to buy out the facility and make a
long-term investment as well. This is a fierce rival of
your company's right?"

Jennifer De La Cruz
"I'm not familiar with it, but that's not to say that
other folks
here at Carnival at a higher level, who are negotiating
with
the folks in Belize, are, they may very well be aware of
it. In
fact they probably are."

But whether the Government is aware of all that is
going on is still unclear. Attempts to reach Minister
of Tourism Mark Espat failed again as we were
informed that he was unavailable for comment
today. However, News 5 was made to understand
that much of the information about this major deal
has not been shared with tourism officials, including
the minister himself.

Thank you Bywarren!!!! Yes!! That's exactly what I was talking about. Could it work in Belize? Although, after reading Marty's above post, it's to late. The GIANT pier and the mass exodus of people to Belize City for day tours is a done deal. I can see the gears of greed spinning as we speak!

I hate to say this, and it grieves me deeply, but masses of tourists is not my idea of a vacation. My mother was born in St. Maarten, and a good many of my childhood trips were there to see family. It was a WONDERFUL place. I couldn't think of a place I would rather be. But mass tourism has ruined it. It's horribly overpriced, crowded, has mountains of crime now, and has lost ALL of it's true French and Dutch charm. It sickens me. I haven't been back in years. My family can't understand why we always went to Belize for a vacation when I had places to stay there available to me. On my last trip to St. Maarten, my uncle literally hired a body gaurd for me and my husband. Who wants that???? I now see Belize on the same road to ruin. So very sad. I hate having to look for somewhere else to go now.........
Debbie

Maybe they will designate Belize City and island. :p

OF COURSE he's unavailable for comment. He's probably in Miami picking out furniture for his new condo.

LOL!!! Bywarren you're a hoot.

By the way, in case any of you wish to discuss these issue in person while in Belize, I will again post my picture to help you recognize me.
http://community.webshots.com/user/bywarren

Or, if you come across Pedro and me in the bar, I am the good looking one.

PS: Debbie, one note of small optimism, nothing is a done deal in Belize until the money is there. If Belize has to come up with half the money, it's not a done deal.

Bywarren, that is a comforting thought, but like we all agreed, the greed factor here will present the money with bows on it, I fear. It's an "irresponsible" investors dream. $$$$$$$ Ching... Chings.... They hear the money rolling in already.... Although I think they may be disappointed in the end, it doesn't stop the mad rush to the front of the line. I'll be optimistic and consider your view. We can also consider that the Minister of Tourism could be a good guy, and is furious he was left out of this negotiation, may have serious reservations about the impact it could have, (maybe read our posts..LOL) and may have the power to nix it???? One can only hope.
Debbie

There have been lots of heralded projects in Belize that never got off the ground due to lack of funds. It is one thing for Belize to do what is has done, that being, just open it's doors and let the tourist $ roll in. Now that it is at the cross-roads that will require major investment, that might be a different story. I will remain causiously optimistic. And, I would still encourage the business community to seriously consider the viability of the cruise business when they have a growing and lucrative "over-night" business. I am not sure they can have "their cake and eat it too".

From the The Ocean Conservancy website located at

Ocean Conservancy Dynamic Issues Page

"Floating cities with their own zip codes, cruise ships carry millions of people each year to some of the world's most pristine and sensitive ecosystems. Largely unregulated, cruise ships also discharge huge amounts of waste directly into the water. From raw sewage to toxic chemicals, cruise ships dump huge amounts of waste directly into ocean waters, posing a potential threat to marine wildlife, fragile habitats and human health.

Cruise ship impacts have increased exponentially with the industry's dramatic growth. In 1998, 223 cruise ships carried 10 million passengers through some of the world's most sensitive ocean ecosystems. Since then, the industry has grown by an average of 10 percent annually, and is expected to bring more than 49 new vessels into service by 2005." There is a great PDF document called Cruise Control located at this page that explains the insanity of these floating cities. Well with the way Norwalk viruses are plaguing these ships we may luck out and the Belize plans will get axed.

Hon. Said Musa
pmbelize@btl.net

Hon Mark Espat
etswyph@travelbelize.org

I assume I'll be seeing both tomorrow night and I'll offer all your condolances on the death of the tourism industry as we know it. Funeral services to be announced at a later date.

Hon. Said Musa
pmbelize@btl.net

Hon Mark Espat
etswyph@travelbelize.org

I assume I'll be seeing both tomorrow night and I'll offer all your condolances on the death of the toursim industry as we know it. Funeral services to be announced at a later date.

Bywarren,
I understand the concept of the across the board need for investors to support the infrastructure that would be needed.... It would be a monumental task to find them and get it done in time for the ships. It won't be in place in time. Just like you said.
It may be my imagination, but I've heard a lot of chit chat from various sources that there are a lot of foreign investors just waiting for their opportunity. Circling like vultures. This cruise line investment could be a catalyst. Would this source be viable?? I'm not familiar with small foreign investment rules and restrictions.

I do not know much about foreign investors lining up to pour money into Belize, but I am the one who waited 30 years before buying property in Belize. So, take that into consideration when determing how smart I am and how much I know.

Latitudes,
Thank you very much for supporting my earlier post with your web site on the dangers of cruise ships. It's a frightening prospect for Belize to be sure. It is a very real threat.
Debbie

Bywarren,
LOL!! I have always highly respected your opinion. Sorry if I overestimated your expertise in foreign investment. YOu have sound judgement and always make a fair assessment of a situation. I admire that.

Mayatravel. Thank you for passing along our condolences. Not that it will matter much, but I feel better that they will know our opinions here on the board.
Debbie

I have friends who have done a cruise to BZ CITY and their impressions of the City will "keep them from ever going back to BZ".....why would anyone want to cruise to BZ CITY???? Will there be many "excursions" for these folks...especially overnight ones? Or to AC? Actually have an Aunt and Uncle who did it and they won't go back either. Even told my parents "why in hell does your daughter want to move to Belize?"

On my first trip to AC I did two mainland tours, one to Altun Ha and the other cave tubing. On both trips we were greeted by hoards of cruisers. On my last trip to AC, the first thing I asked before signing up for a tour was "Is that a cruise ship day?" I guess I won't need to ask anymore, because the answer will always be yes, and I will probably avoid the day trips altogether.

bywarren's comments are spot on -- those here who have more than a few month's perspective will remember all the many developments on Ambergris Caye and elsewhere that have been announced (often by government ministers at big ceremonies) over the years -- the casinos, golf courses, airstrips, convention centres, timeshare projects, etc. -- most of which, like MacArthur's old soldiers, just faded away in the salt air.

And I also agree that Belize City is trouble waiting to happen for the cruise ship lines. I don't think they know what they're getting into.

--Lan Sluder

If the Belizians hate "cruise ships" enough, they will vote their disapproval. I've been Belizin for 18 years...but, I'm still a visitor. The bottom line...cruise ships are a comin and we will hafta "deal with it".

It doesn't sound like it's a "done deal" based on Belize's history with these types of things (as Lan stated). And if it isn't, then the tourism community needs to actively voice their disapproval of this happening. Most Belizeans I've talked to about the cruiseship tourism that is already occuring did not like it at all. The only ones who did were employed by them. Hopefully, Belizeans will take it upon themselves to protest this "development."

The negative impacts of cruiseship tourism far outweigh the benefits for the host countries, as many people have already stated. If you don't believe it, do some research and read about the negative impacts of cruiseships already documented in other Caribbean locations.

There is no way ecotourism can co-exist with cruise-ship tourism on the scale this project is aimed at having.

Look at who is benefitting from cruiseship tourism already in Belize -- it's 2 large companies who control all of the day trips for the cruiseships (whose owners are already extremely wealthy). That's it! And those day trips only take tourists to the largest restaurants that can support large groups. It's not our favorite mom and pops that are going to benefit. In fact, they are going to suffer because Belize will be ruined for most of us who frequent those places.

Yep, I'll be looking out for the funeral for Belize's ecotourism industry and for Belize as we know it...

Question?
What about the companies who participate with the cruise lines (for example Altun Ha, Cave tubing, etc)… The ones who pay their staff for taking those cruise people around, buying food to serve them lunch; Do they ever receive their money from the cruise lines on time? To make it worse, do they even get paid?
Just wondering…
Little Big Mickey Blue

would it do any good for us to email Espat and Musa?

sic 'em

got that done. don't know if all of us emailing will have much of an impact - but I feel better lodging my protest.

Hmmmm, Belize Ports Ltd.? Ya know after four years of collecting $20US from each departing non-Belizian I might just have enough money to have a pretty fair share of the required collateral to particpate with Carnival. (Some time when yer bored do the math).

How far ya think you'll need to dig to find who the principals of Belize Ports Ltd. REALLY are.

Jeez, it's Friday, not normally such a cynic on Friday.

Oh well get out the blue stuff.

Start with Luke Espat, who like many from the first world, just wants an opportunity to become a mogul. I have to say, even though I destain cruise ship tourism (but know lots of people who are only able to make ends meet because of it), some people on the boards expect people from Belize to be more moral and protective of the environment here, than many up your way have been with their own. But we're all the same and folks in Belize also want expensive vehicles and boats, a large home here and a condo in Miami, $ to send their kids to college and themselves to Paris on vacation. Sound familiar? Belizeans can't be held up to higher standards than the rest of the developed world. And the Luke Espats of Belize will not become moguls without projects of this stature. The perceived needs of humans will supercede the environment every time. I wish the world were different, but alas, it ain't. So come now and see it before it changes.

mayatravel: I cannot disagree with you more. The Luke Espats of the world and other elected politicians are not supposed to become "moguls" thru corruption and stealing at the expense of the people. I am assuming you agree with me that Belize has a serious problem with corruption. If you do not, that is a topic I could expound on in length. People are supposed to get all of the things you mentioned thru honest work and effort, not by getting elected. I am not asking Belize politicians to be held to a higher standard. It would just be nice if they were held to some standard.

standards like the Bush cartel, huh?

bywarren,

It sure would be a lot more gentrified if they were just a bit subtle about it. That departure tax has pissing me off for years. Of course there have been about $200,000 worth of modifications (notice I did not say improvements) done to International. Once again take two planes a day (more or less), 170-180 passengers each, 6-7 days a week and multiply by $20US. Yabba dabba doo, what a party we could be havin'

That's it. I'm going to Tara and relax.

CC

Mayatravel: I also wanted to address your points about expecting Belize people to be more moral or protective of their environment. I do not know about others on the board, but my comments concerning this were in the context that Belize chose to market eco-tourism as a means of developing a tourist industry thru which it’s people could prosper. The debate for me is whether attracting the cruise business will adversely effect the tourist industry that has been built in Belize and have a negative impact on the tourist industry as a whole. If the cruise business can be added and will increase the total revenues without jeopardizing the long range future of tourism in Belize, then it will be a good thing. I am just very doubtful that will be the case. I fear that trying to accommodate the numbers of tourists that is anticipated will have detrimental effect on the environment with the eventual result being that Belize loses it’s attractiveness to tourists both overnight visitors and cruise visitors. To me it is not a question of Belize peoples morality or environmental concerns, rather what is the correct business decision that will give the Belize people the most opportunities now and for the future.

Touche Bywarren.... Couldn't have said it better myself.

Bywarren: I was referring to human nature, same here as there. People want to acquire as many toys as they can. I buy mine with honest dollars. But some people don't care how they amass their funds. Corruption as well, lots more there, but easier to spot here. I get the feeling that some posters on this board are trying to hold Belize people up to a higher standard than is required of them back home. Many(I hope) well meaning back seat drivers, talking about what ought to and ought not to happen here. With very little actual insight into the people or machinations in the country. I'm happy to have serious discussions with serious people who live day in and year out in Belize. Who survive on local salaries and who pay duty on their vehicles. Who spend time with Belize people who are friends and not just their employees. You live here? One of the great debating venues is the Round Table BBQ, every Saturday, starting at noon, in the Traveler's parking lot, mile 2 on the Northern Hywy. Great collection of every day and high ranking UDP and PUP people discussing topical events. And some people disgusted with both parties. Sound familiar? Fabulous back and forth, good fun with lots of very decent, hard working people. And I don't agree that the country ever had an eco tourism plan that is now being hijacked by cruise ship development, because, they never had a plan. The BTB only recently flexed it's marketing muscles. The eco tourism moniker was cultivated by the industry itself (20) years ago. People like the Flemings at Chaa Creek, Sharon Matola at the Zoo, Rosita Arvigo with herbal medicine. People around the world read articles about their accomplishments and about Belize. I believe it was the small stakeholders in tourism who created the eco tourism industry. Then GOB under PUP ups the taxes on the industry, some of the money goes to marketing Belize as an adventure destination and viola! Cruise ships docking for diving, caving and ruins, destroying it both ecologically and aesthetically. Remember Disney's "The Sorcerer's Apprentice", when they couldn't stop the buckets of water? Be careful, you might get what you sort of asked for.

All very good points, mayatravel. I too do not like to see people try and inflict their morals or values on others. On the other hand, I do not think it is wrong for people to engage in debate over things like the environment and any other issue that effect all people. I do not think a person’s concern for those issue needs to stop at their country’s boarder. I do not think it is an effective argument to say that just because someone else does poorly on an issue, it excuses me doing poorly. That would take us all to lowest denominator. I think the better approach is for all to look within and want to be as good as or better than the best.

I look at this debate as what decisions will be best for Belize and it’s people in the long run. I admit I do this from somewhat of a selfish viewpoint. I live in Belize about half of the year. I first came to Belize 35 years ago. I have been fortunate to have enjoyed Belize for all those years and now to be a resident and consider it a second home. I want it to retain all of the good things that attracted me to Belize and hope my children will be able to enjoy what I have. But back to my first point, I do not think anyone needs to have “credentials” to voice a concern or participate in a debate on what is good or bad for Belize.

The decision and debate on the cruise issue, like any other decision, needs to be made keeping in mind what the worse case scenario might be. I would hate to see the decision made on what I call the “gross dollar and short term greed”. It is not a question of how much money can Belize “gross” in the short term, but how much can it ”net” in the long term. Keep in mind the worse case scenario, if this cruise venture fails and damages Belize’s attraction as a tourist destination, then the cruise ships just go to another destination and Belize is left hoping it can rebuild it’s tourists industry and that it was not damaged beyond repair. The stakes are higher for Belize.

I think these will be important decisions for Belizeans, and I am glad that there are non-Belizeans
who care enough to engage in the debate.

PS: I guess after saying all that, I could have just said, "It is all in how you look at it. It is either someone sticking their nose is someone elses business or someone just showing genuine concern for someone elses business".

Fine, but remember you're critizing Belize from the country that won't even allow it's own citizens or politicians to air their opposition to the Iraq war without being labeled as traitors. But that's neither here nor there. Maybe what I'm trying to say, and it might be hard for people from the worlds number one world power to understand, is that countries want their own national sovereignty. Make their own decisions, right or wrong. Honestly or dishonestly. It would make sense for a Canadian to have a say in the Artic drilling debate, as it will affect their ecosystem. But do you think the US powers that be care about their opinions or how these decisions will affect these other people? And again, I know the horrors of the cruise ship industry. Like I said in another post, funeral services for tourism as we knew it will be announced shortly. You have no idea how badly the anti-dam contingant failed here because the foreign voices were much louder than the Belize voices. People naturally recoiled at a bigger power telling them what they should do again. Sort of like the same problems you have between the state and federal govt. Anyway, no more of this pls. This is a good platform for short replies to comments and questions, but not big things like this that have upteen elements to them. Come to round Table BBQ and we'll talk like people.

Your taking it like I said in my post script that people are sticking their nose in your business. I know I am doing it for the other reason and I hope many of the others are as well.

Thanks for the invite. The BBQ sounds inviting.

Another PS: I was trying to refrain from saying this, but I think I will say it anyway. There is no way anyone from the US can have any control over Belize's national sovereignty. But, when you ask people to come to your country and spend their money, just like with any other business, you should listen to what the customer has to say whether you like it or not.

Most, if not all of us, voice opinions because we deeply care about your lovely county. I hope you see it less as criticism, and more the sincere concern that it is meant to be. We are in no position to criticize -- that would be like the pot calling the kettle black. The USA has enough of our own social problems, that is true, and many of us do what we can about our problems here at home. Government corruption, crime, drugs, poverty -- we have it all. We are the land of plenty of everything. You did remind us though, Maya, how many Belizeans could take offense at our "armchair" advice. I hadn't really thought how our opinions here could appear to the people of Belize. I do apologize for that, but please believe that it isn't because we are arrogant enough to think we know how to "fix" Belize. It is our great regard for your country, that makes it more frustrating to realize that we are really powerless to do much more than discuss it here. Those things that we are empowered to do to, I believe most of us do; small things, like sending a letter or email (to both our governments when appropriate) regarding the dam proposal, cuts in heritage funding, the reinstitution of funds to assist Belize in finding alternative fuel sources, and just the small things that are done - donations of time and money to try and do something, anything, so that we can feel like we have helped our friend. Alas, aside from that, all we can do is talk, and maybe sometimes talk too much. You have a country that is rich in so many ways, the beautiful people, beautiful places, that beautiful ocean. Those of us who are getting to know it, those of us who have been guests many times, and those who now consider it their home, just don't want to see any negative impact on what we have come to love. The major concern we share with you, whether we are discussing cruise ships, crime, or drug smugglers, is what it could do to the real Belize economy -- hotels, shops, restaurants, small businesses etc., as well as the irreparable damage to the environment. Please never take it as an insult.

Thanks Maya for making good points that made me think. Let us know how Warren does at the BBQ!

Very polite and well stated. I am impressed. It is nice to see people address criticism without criticizing.

Dob, you have named it and explained our feels extremely well. Thanks you. I concur.

Interesting discussion db and maya. I think maya makes a wonderful point about Belizeans not wanting outsiders telling them what to do (which I think is something we can all relate to). It's an intesting issue because I know every Belizean I asked about the dam said they didn't want foreigners telling them what to do with their country. And they were so annoyed with the foreign anti-dam movement, that they didn't get invovled themselves. But I think part of the problem was that the foreign movement didn't address the concerns Belizeans had about the dam.

Anyway, I too am worried that a large foreign-led anti-cruise-ship movement in Belize would have the same results. However, as I said before, most Belizeans I talked to expressed concern over the cruise-ship industry. And I think learning from the history of cruise-ship tourism in other destinations and the negative impacts on the host country as a whole should be an important consideration for Belizeans.

I'm all for Belizeans making money if that's what they want, but I don't think cruise-ship tourism is the way to do that for the majority of Belizeans in the long run. Sure, a few will benefit a great deal initially, and some will benefit from more jobs and such, but in the long run, the negative consequences will far out weigh the benefits. At least that's what I believe.

Next time I'm in Belize, I would love to go to the BBQ. Wish I could be there every weekend!

kmgentry, you hit the nail square on the head with your response above. I agree that Belizeans simply do not want, or need our input nor actions by us "on their behalf"

People can complain, forms groups, send letters to the government all they want... and to no avail unless they are the people directly living with the situation... that means the native Belizeans living in Belize.

A good example is our present situation in Iraq... people all over the world are calling us all kinds of names... especially France and Germany... are we taking their advice? Of course not... this is OUR country and no one in the world can tell us what to do... right or wrong.

Same goes for Belize... Belize is THEIR country and no one in the world can tell them what to do with their own country.

Good points all. Maybe people from Belize and the US should think about the fact God gave us one mouth and two ears. I wonder if there was some reason for that?

I have just two quick comments.
Cruise ships are just giant cattle transports and anything that they can reach on a day trip, the herd will trample.
If a big dog like Carnival wants a place to park boats, it's gonna happen. They could probably buy the whole country if they wanted to. I know that a lot of other big projects haven't ever gotten off the ground in Belize but I have to think that Carnival is a whole different breed.

Luke Espat the owner of the Port did not have a pot to [#%!] in a few years ago. Overnight he bacame a mogul. Hmmmmmmm. He was also recently caught with a stolen H2 Hummer. No charges have ever been filed. Fienstein's the drug dealer owners of the Tourist Village are Jews, Luke Espat from the Port is an Arab.
Minister of Tourism, Mark Espat & Prime Minister Said Musa are also Arabs. Hmmmmmmmm.

I don't know if SoSaidFred's comments move the debate in the direction it should go, but he does have most of his facts correct.

Maybe this is a case where the US could learn something from Belize. Maybe Belize has a "road map" that works.

And a resort that I know of very well is owned by 4 Muslims.

Where are the Belizeans?

You are right, crockhunter. But why would they want to buy the country, even if they could, when they can just use it, abuse it and then, to use the words of an Oak Ridge Boys song, "just sail away into the night". :rolleyes:

Many more hotels, tour operators, etc are owned by US, Brit & Canadian owners than Muslim

I like the Espat connection myself... :rolleyes:

I gather Luke and the Honorable Mark Espat are related. Is this true?

Belize Reporter

New multi-million cruise terminal will proceed as planned - Belize Ports says
(Friday 05 September 2003 11:09:08 am)

Belize Ports Limited and the Miami-based Carnival Corporation Tlc have reached an agreement for the development of a new cruise terminal facility in an area of Belize City near the Belize City Port Terminal.

Under the agreement Carnival corporation has committed to regular ship calls at the new facility for a 25-year period.

The project, expected to cost $100 million, will consist of a pier able to accommodate two cruise ships and an adjacent welcome centre.

The project also calls for channel improvements as well as a transportation hub with capacity to handle hundreds of buses and taxis.

Belize Ports Limited is a Belizean company managing the Ports of Belize City and the Port of Big Creek under the supervision of Luke Espat.

Carnival Corporation PLC, the largest cruise vacation group , is comprised of Carnival Cruise Lines, Princes Cruises, Holland American Line, Costa Cruises, P&O Cruises, Cunard Line, Winstar and Seabourn Cruises among others, operating 70 cruise ships in Europe and the Caribbean.

Direct revenue to the local economy over the 25 year life-span of the agreement is estimated at more than two billion dollars, according to Espat, who also said that Carnival Corporation is the first of a number of strategic investors identified by Belize Ports Limited to participate in the long-term development of the port.

Funding for the project will be be provided from a mix of equity and debt investment from the project partners.

Meanwhile, news about the fate of the Tourism Village, which is the only hub today for arriving cruise ships visitors is still not clear.

It has been confirmed that the present owners, Michael Feinstein and his wife, want to sell, and that there are two competing buyers - the Belize Cruise-ship Industry Association and Royal Caribbean Cruise Line.

Reports that the Feinsteins have decided to sell to Royal Caribbean Cruise Line could not be confirmed.

OK, I slept on this. Even laid in bed and counted to ten before getting up. But, you are still going to get my thoughts without the sugar coating.

If people have opinions about others or other countries, there is nothing wrong with expressing those opinions. I will qualify with the covenant that those opinions should not be offered solely with the intent of degrading, belittling or to be purposely offensive. If those opinions are given and based on what is factual or believed to be factual, then they are being offered in a sincere manner. Just because comments might point out negative aspects is not a reason for those being commented on to attempt the flawed argument that those commenting have no right to because they either have problems of their own, are trying to run the country, or were not born in the country in question. It serves no good purpose to attempt to silence those comments by trying to make those commenting feel guilty, or attempt to change the subject by focusing on the faults of those commenting or attempting to assign false intentions to those commenting, as opposed to debating the issues in hopes of finding solutions.

Now as to Belize and the issues of Cruise Ships and the possible damage to the other tourist industry in Belize, the potential for further corruption with the establishment of this new venture, the enrichment of the select few at the expense of others (the port authority used to be owned by the people of Belize until it was transfered to private individuals just prior to this deal), the past corruption, the past and currently documented drug activity (and don’t give me that crap about supply and demand, the vultures and dredges of society that profit on other’s addictions are at the bottom of the totem pole of human decency and should be an embarrassment to any county they come from, Columbia, Belize, the US, or any other country) are all issue that will have severe consequences for, not only the Belize people but, those of us who live in that society and those who enjoy visiting. We all have the right, if not even the obligation, to contribute to that society. That contributing not only involves us paying our taxes, voting if we can and spending our money, but also contributing by offering our heart felt opinions to the debate.

So for those of you who like and care about Belize, I want to hear your voice. For those of you embarrassed about your countries short comings, you would do more of a service to your country by recognizing the problems and participating in finding solutions with all those willing to help as opposed to telling people just to keep their nose out of your business. If someone is ill and wants to get well, sometimes they need to take the medicine that does not taste good along with the medicine that has the sugar coating.

Now that I have attempted to establish my right to comment, I will do so.

The argument for cruise ships that the Belize politicians use is a “smoke and mirrors” argument.
They argue from the premise that this is good for Belize and it’s people because it brings in millions of dollars. One needs to follow those dollars to determine the “net benefit” to the Belize people and what is being given up in order to get that benefit. The reality is that a high percentage of the dollars coming in will be going to a small few, those politicians and those in the favor of the politicians. I can assure you the cruise ships will not be paying in Belize dollars for the services. It will be paid to the select few in US dollars that will then be used to buy those “expensive cars and boats not made in Belize, condos in Miami, trips to Paris” and tuition in British and US universities. Oh, and don’t forget that which will go into the Columbian economy. All this gained with loans backed by the Belize people. All those dollars then leaving the country with only the debt left in Belize.

Contrast that with the dollars coming into the country from the “overnight visitor”. Those dollars go to the resorts and restaurants who pay the cleaning people, the cooks and waiters, to the tour guides, etc. Those paid in turn, spend those dollars in their community purchasing their necessities of life. Those dollars are worth considerably more in “net benefit” to Belize than the “gross cruise dollars”. That could be a pun? The “gross” part, I mean. So if any of the cruise dollars are gained at the expense of the overnight dollars, the net gain to the Belize economy is actually a net loss.

I would offer this to the bbq today via e-mail or tele-conference. Not in person for selfish reasons. The anonimity of this board is great, although I am begining see the advantage of more than one screen name.

PS: It seems inconsistant to me to invite someone to a "round table discussion" to discuss these issues but then to infer that people should not use this medium to discuss the same issues unless the position is that only the ones with "credentials" acceptable are allowed to participate or that only comments of a favorable or flatering nature are acceptable.

Aside from the sarcastic comment about anonimity, I would welcome the oportunity and open my home and ears to anyone wishing to discuss issues effecting Belize, my country or any other. So if anyone wishes to look me up when I am in San Pedro, please do. No credentials required.

An interesting point is that the port was sold it actually appears that the gov't still runs it and that Luke owns it. No money has as yet ended up in the gov't coffers and Luke has yet to put his hand in his pocket to cover running costs-I am jealous.