Will we have problems with people selling timeshares? We didn't last time we were in AC, but times change. In Mexico it has gotten so bad that we don't want to go there again. And it is not just one area. We have vacationed at quite a few areas and it is the same problem with timeshare sellers. And they will not take no for an answer. That does not make a relaxing vacation. Hopefully, we won't have problems or AC will be off our list of places to vacation at.

I was there last week and didnt get hassled at all. I was offered just about everything except for timeshare and no one was overly pushy. Just ignore them and they'll move on. If you pause and accept a brochure thats like an invitation to them.

Seven seas will try to sell you timeshares, and I believe there are a few others. There were a couple of obnoxious sales guys around town selling other things. So, yes, I believe you will find more of these types than in the past.

I agree with you, Aeriel, it's annoying to run into something that we are trying to get away from.

Just say no to the timeshare people and go on your way. Remember they are only trying to make some money to survive like all the rest of us. They are not bad people.

But there are some people that are bad that sell timeshares. We have had them lie to us, telling us that our tour had been cancelled, so why not see the timeshare. Saying no did not work. They got very rude and annoying.

When the timeshares first started on the island most people did not understand it, especially the local sales representatives. As it has evolved the sales men see how easy it is to make money. They get paid for each couple that visits their resort whether they buy or not.

Now you see them all over the place even on golf cart stopping any person they see. I think it has gotten out of hand and I feel terrible for the people who come here to relax because they get bothered at any opportunity. The good part is that most of them leave you alone the minute you say NO! Aeriel please don't be discouraged by them, the island is beautiful and it would be a shame if you miss out on it.

Captain Morgan's has timeshare booths at Fido's Courtyard and Mango's (on the beach).

They also have a European couple and a young guy (with a doo rag his head) on golf carts that stop you in the street to invite you for a timeshare presention.

Watch out for the free week you "win" when you draw a ticket out of the bag, everyone wins.

SIN

that's funny, a couple staying at Seven Seas when we were there "won" a free night at Seven Seas or a week or whatever and thought they were the luckiest people alive.......know we know...

Bzedoll and others,
We have been at Ac before and will be returning in Oct. We wanted to be prepared about the timeshare problem, if there is one. If this problem is as bad as areas in Mexico, we won't be returning to AC after our Oct. visit. Last time in AC we didn't get "timeshared" at all and we stayed at the Seven Seas. It was the most relaxing vacation that we had in a long time. Hopefully, the Oct. vacation will be, too.

We were in Belize July 3-10 for the first time. We walked by the blue hut on the beach next to Fido's on the beach ( I think the location is correct). Met Kenny, a big personable black guy who was charming. We said "no" to seeing Captain Morgans for 5 days but finally agreed to when he told us he would get $50 if we went and he needed the money for his 4 year old son. We should have listened to our instincts. Our experience with Captain Morgans time share has been unpleasent to put it kindly. Warning- look long and hard before buying. There was a great deal of misrepresentation in our case.

When you say your "experience with Captain Morgans time share has been unpleasant to put it kindly", does that mean you actually purchased? I ask because we did puchase last year and although we love the resort, we have felt some misrepresentations have happened. I would be interested in others feedback on timeshare ownership there.

Also... I should note that the timeshare office is making an attempt to make everything right. And the two woman that run their timeshare business in the US are very helpful. I just didnt want to leave others with a negative impression, just interested in others experiences.

Yes, we did purchase. We are trying to get the people at Captain Morgans to contact us so perhaps we can settle some of the things we feel were misrepresented. Will get back on the board with details when we hear from them.

We now know where not to look but where are the best offerings in the islands?

I'm sure Captain Morgan's will square things up with you.

In other, non-related, cases owners have gone to the exchange company for assistance or in Belize, the Belize Tourism Board.

SIN

Let us do the math
20000 usd for a timeshare
75 usd for RCI membership p.a.
650usd for maintainance p.annum (which will go up every year-there is no way that maintainance should be 30000 usd per year per appt.)
250usd per week swopped
cannot take advantage of cheap flights as must fly on sat or sunday-must plan holidays way in advance to get ones "floating week" at required date.
try seliing you T/S-the company you buy it from will not even guarantee 50% back-saying property caqn go up and down-personally in my experience over a 10 year period property prices double except for T/S
This is not saying that Capt Morgans missrepresent anything they do not (to my knowledge) and it is a very nice resort.

Pedro1- What is "RCI" membership? Also, so I understand your math, how did you come up with the $30,000 usd per year per appt.?

Thanks for the help.

Not intending to speak for Pedro, but just in case he is busy. http://www.rci.com/index explains that and $650 times 52 weeks is his math.

Thanks bywarren. Got it! We are with Interval International. I guess RCI is another T/S membership co.

Captain Morgan's will offer an "out" if you feel you have been misled.

A quality timeshare developer (Starwood, Marriot, etc.) finds no need to misrepresent the product to produce sales.

If you choose interval ownership go with an experienced developer with a established track record.

Timeshare can be limiting for some but on the other hand open up many oppurtunities for others. It is not for everyone, and like everything else has its pros and cons.

Perhaps you should contact the developer's lawyer in Wisconsin if the sales department doesn't work things out with you.

SIN

Sir Isaac= Are you saying that Capt. Morgans will refund all monies if their various clients feel that tjey missunderstood what they paid for??
My opinion -No chance IMO

The main shareholder of the vacation club, who resides in the US, is very decent man and IMO will be willing to refund monies if gross misrepresentations have been made at the sales presentation.

I know of one person who did receive a refund due to a misunderstanding a few years back.

She later went on to buy a condo at Paradise Villas.

It is smart to realize the BTB is keeping a close eye on the new timeshare developements (and actively in the process of drafting legislation). I think it wise to have happy clients and not to make waves.

SIN

What a bunxh of codswallop=no T/S company will refund money except for illegalcontracts =noT/S contract is illegal as the contracts are written by lawyers who reside in that country.
The BTB have not got a clue what T/S is really about.
Please explain -how can maintainance be over 30000 usd per year per appt. or am I missing something here??

No GROSS missrepresenations on our deal. I should clarify that it is only one problem, and as stated above, the office seems to be working things out. I certaintly dont want to be making a mole hill into a mountain. I was merely responding to someone else who had purchased a time share who had a bad experience there and I wanted others feedback since this is our first time owning one. As stated earlier we love the resort and the staff was great last time we stayed there. I do appreciate everyones feedback. Thanks.

Got things settled with Captain Morgans. They were nice about the situation, sorry for the misrepresentations and we resolved almost everything. Hope all you timeshare owners have a great experience with your timeshares.

Pedro, he was saying if you pay $650 for only one week, then they have the opportunity to make over 30 thousand per year for that one unit in maintenance fees.... of course this is a stretch because none of them are rented every week, but he makes a good point.....

Yes, Pedro, as usuall you are missing something here.....

Since your departure from the timeshare scene, the term "maintenance fee" has been abandonded and rephrased "assessment" as maintenance is just a portion of the annual expenses associated with the operation of an interval resort.

Mr. Mahler from the BTB and Richard Sutton (CEO, Royal Group) would also beg to differ with you.

There may actually be someone on this Earth more intelligent than you.

SIN

Wow an attack on my intelligemce-so you as a resort (whichever one it happens to be) do not call it a maintainance fee - big deal.
You say we assess you at 600 plus usd per week owned-that is an outright bargain because I presume that you sell "floating time" which in reality does not exist as every week sold has to be designated a fixed week i.e. a week between 1-51 on a timeshare calander this is because RCI need to take a guaranteed week from the resort to swap.
Therefore when you have sold 51 weeks you go to the next appt.-How on earth can it cost over 30k to maintain/assess an appt.-it does not-how much money does the assessment take for the management company off your week-it is huge,and is the benefit for every timeshare developer as eventually the client just dumps the appt. and the resort can resell it for more money.

This may be true with the failed project which you marketed, which was resposible for embesseling millions from clients.

1. Points and floating time are inventoried by demand season and reserved using various reservation windows. In much the same way RCI and II designate demand season using color codes. Each reservation process is unique to each vacation club.

2. Assessment fees include all taxes, insurance, maintenance and ALL other operating expenses (management, transfers, reservations, etc...). Included in this annual fee is a reserve account, set aside for the replacement of fixed assets when these items need to be replaced.

3. Vacation Ownership is the fastest growing sector in the travel and tourism industry, WORLDWIDE, even after 9/11. This is a fact. It must be working. II and RCI (optional services) see increases in memberships on an annual basis.

4. Timeshare does in fact have a tainted image due to past developers practicing unethical and illegal methods of sales and management. Fortunately, due to these same practices, MOST (but not all) of these developers have vanished from the timeshare scene. Today the timeshare industry is one of the most heavily regulated. Thus the entrance of Disney, Mariott and Starwood to the playlist.

5. Historically, timeshare owners end up purchasing additional time at other resorts.

This business has changed.

Lead, follow or get out of the way!

And, no, it was not an attack on your intelligence, just letting you know there may be some, not even British, on this Earth that could be a little better educated that you in certain things.

SIN

I have never taken a penny from customers on this island -If you where here at the time, you will remember that I invested a lot of money in Basil Jones Resort and within six weeks of me arriving here, found out that it was a con. Unfortunately, for many people, who invested in the resort, they believed the developer, who incidentally invested no money, but everybody wanted to believe him- having told many people that Adam was a con artist and advising against investing in that particular project people just went on ahead and invested.

If you want to attack me, please get your facts correct and also I would appreciate that you should tell your clients exactly how much after their initial investment they will pay per year for their own apartment.

If you consider timeshare a good investment, a good value for money, a good holiday investment, would you please explain to me exactly how an $18K investment for one week an apartment, with an "assessment" that goes up yearly with no guarantee of what percentage monetary wise, because it won't go down, and how much it costs to use an apartment that you technically own for one week every year.

My maintenance for a year is $1500US in a 2 bedroom apartment. This is for the entire year and the management company have to proove that they need more money to maintain the apartment. You on the other hand, have to proove nothing - other than that you want to make more and more money out of a management company by hammering the poor people that have invested in something they think they own when all they have is the "right to use" which is not an ownership it is almost like a rental.

I also do not hide behind a pseudonym and believe that you really do not understand what you purport to sell. If indeed you represent Captain Morgans, which would surprise me, I would not be surprised to find that you have misrepresented what you sell.

Please explain to us how and $18K purchase of a timeshare unit is a good way of distributing my money around this world. Also, with the "assessment charges", the exchange fee charges, the RCI charges - all if which go up every year, are better than leaving my money in the bank and using the money to go on holiday.

I answered your original post and then you changed your post-this is crackers-answer mine and then I will answer yours-meanwhile please explain the financial benefits of purchasing -rather than Sheraton/Disney are figuring out what a good deal it is to be a developer!!

How's the latest Harry Potter book?

SIN

SIN, in your opinion, is timeshare a real estate / property transaction?

SIN, are you there? In your opinion is Timeshare something that can be considered real estate or property?

to all board members ,the capt jeff has been in sales his whole life ,and the last 13 years own my own travel discount store 95 %cruises the rest is travel tours etc..and I can share with you, it is a fact know in the travel industry that time share is the worst investment in the world .. when you show the numbers to any one,,it is a bad investement ,dollar for dollar ,the worst purchase people can make !!! they buy because of because of high pressure sales tactics only .. time share sellers never say think about it, show it to someone ,let us know later ,get back to us sleep on it .. no way !!!you could count on one hand how many people walked in on there own and bought one on there own ???? time share sellers never give you a copy of the deal to show to your attorney and accountant to apporve .. and wait for there apporval.. why is that ?????? ?????????????because after checking it out and after careful investtigation nobody would do the deal..... absolutley nobdody .... , 0, people, nada ,no one was told to take the plunge good deal ,only poor suckers ???? they where sucked in by free food or free tour or some inducement got them excited and was set up and sold on a idea by a closer a sales person on high commssion .then once they got to look it over when they got home ..realize how bad they where taken .. and where to embarassed and thought is was to late to sue them or was told by hotel to bad your screwed to late ....so they live with it . shame ,shame shame . I was born at night but not last night..give me a break..stay away from time share you will sleep better at night and have more money in the bank to go where and when you like, and at your time frame ,not theirs .. ,and forget about the bull they told you can swap your week and trade it for another week place ,,..later ..right,,but it never works ..stay away from trouble and do not listen to them .. time share makes no good sense,enjoy your vacation live the dream and enjoy life..

Chris: A timeshare is not a real estate product, rather a prepaid vacation plan. Some are "deeded", mostly in the US and others are termed "right to use" for a specific time period.

Jeff: I respect your opinion as a travel professional. In all fairness, this is one opinion, yours. With a little due diligence you can find millions of satisfied vacation owners. Even the wonderful world of cruising is not for everyone.

An interval purchase is much like a cruise, you buy it, enjoy it and walk away from it. Not a traditional equity investment but an investment in recreation and quality time with those you love.

Many people in this world, due to hectic schedules, find it hard to set aside time for vacation and travel. A prepaid vacation program will, for one, force people to get away and spend quality time with their family on, at least, an annual basis.

Even the well educated super rich follow this mind set. The Ritz Carlton offers a plan for $350,000 to $1,000,000 - FOR A TIMESHARE, even though it is not labeled as such. Why? Because it is only a vacation with no liabilities. They can check in - check out and worry about nothing else, unlike the complications of owning a condo. Vacations are meant to be fun, many want to keep it that way. Timeshare can offer this option to many, not all.

Can you remember when Hotel 6 was $6 per night and then Super 8 came out with $8 per night. This was just a few decades ago. How much are they today? I can remember when $100 a night was very high for San Pedro. What does this get you today?

For some, not all, a purchase of $10,000 for a lifetime of vacations makes a lot of sense, the money part is just a portion of the reasoning. Peace of mind is a lot more. Remember, we are not logical beings but are motivated by emotions.

Is buying a $100 ticket to enjoy the Eagles in concert a good investment? But is it worth it? It depends if you like to Eagles and if you cherish the memories.

But it is understandable that the traditional hotel/motel and cruise industry is concerned. They are loosing future customers to prepaid vacationing.

Again, it is not an investment but rather a savings plan. Nobody can dispute the amount of savings involved in joining a vacation plan.

Each year hotels and resorts need to regain their market share. As you know Sales and Marketing costs are very expensive today. GLOBALLY THESE COSTS ARE IN THE MILLIONS. So out of each dollar spent for a hotel room a significant portion is dedicated to sales and marketing. This is built in to the annual budget, ANNUAL. Thus increasing hotel rates as the competition grows. This business is not like the Field of Dreams.

A vacation club can, over time, save an owner money by avoiding the annual costs associated with Sales and Marketing. You are a customer for life. The sales and marketing costs were paid once, up front, with your membership.

You do the math:

According to AAA, the average family spends $110 per night for a standard motel room. PKF sets the annual inflation on hotel rooms at 7.9%. How much will a family spend in 10, 20 and 30 years.

On the flip side, purchase a plan for $12,000 for a two bedroom suite. Start maintenance fees at $475 per year with an inflation rate which matches the US inflation index for small cities.

Let me know how it works out. Keep in mind this does not include the savings involved with the ability to use a kitchen.

I do enjoy reading your opinions and it should be agreed this product is not for everyone. But for some, it has changed their lives for the better. Check out www.tug2.net this is a timeshare users group shedding light on the positive and negative features of ownership.

Most people are afraid of what they don't know, educate yourselves before making broad statements.

SIN

The Eagles tickets where a $150.00 and your probably right. I don't think It was that great of an investment, But It was a damn good show. How come Don Felder and the Eagles are suing each other?

SIN, you've sold me!

Ebay lists Timeshares under "Real Estate." Interesting....real estate that immediately starts to depreciate the day you buy it. What a bargain! Sign me up for 2 weeks!

Just kidding, of course. I'm not about to squander money on a timeshare when I can sensibly invest it in wine and wild women.

sir isaac newton ,yes what you say sounds good and you have done your homework but why is it that not one time share sales person says think about it let ,me know or sleep on it and show it to someone you trust .because they need to close the deal then because it is a very bad investment and anybody with half a brain knows this .when you do the math it does not make sence !!!almost all people who buy the time share have buyers remose and find out they where suckers.. they bought on impulse .when the reality set in they found out how stupid it was..and try to get there money back only to find a road block,set up to stop them ..if this was a good deal would that happen ????? would you have to offer big inducements to get them to listen to the offer in the first place ,,then be put in a room with a salesman and professional sales closer, and pressure them to make a deal ..no way is this fun ,,no way is that fair .so my point if what you say is so why do this to nice people other then for $$$$$$$$$$$ and greed .and why not give people time to think about this like a two week free look ?????? you and I know the answer !!!!!!

Capt. Jeff, very true. And, part of the high pressure sales technique is to make people feel guilty about walking away from the presentation. They don't buy because they want a timeshare.. they buy because they feel bad about leaving the poor salesperson empty handed after all that hard work.

And, is having timeshare on the island a good thing? Witness the first post on this thread. If timeshare pressure sales got out of hand on Ambergris Caye people like Aeriel wouldn't visit.

Finally, if you find someone that claims they're actually HAPPY they bought a timeshare, bear in mind that most Ford Pinto owners claimed they were happy with their cars...at least until they got rid of them.

SIN, I would much rather take the $12,000, or whatever the timeshare cost is, and invest it, earn a return on it, and take my vacations where and when I decide. I hope, but am not optimistic, that your industry is not taking advantage of folks who really need their money for more important things in life. Consumer reports advises anyone considering this purchase to first be sure that local law provides a 30-day right of recission.

roomyway just my point thank you ..good deal today, good deal in thirty days still like it buy it then ..they will sell no timeshares ..and go broke ..

Capt Jeff,
Just returned from a few days in Destin, Fl.
The large complex we were staying in had gone part timeshare. There was no relaxing at this place due to the constant stream of time share sales associates hearding suckers around and making all kind of promises. Even the phone to the condo unit where we were staying rung several time from the time share agents trying to get us to see the program.
I really hope that this type thing does not take hold in Belize and ruin the atmosphere.
I use to say "GO TO BELIZE SOON AND ENJOY BEFORE ALL THE TOURIST DISCIVER IT" now I guess I am going to have to start saying 'GO TO BELIZE SOON BEFORE THE TIME SHARE SALESMEN TAKE OVER."
kgb

I guess I will jump in on this one also. I will be disagreeing in some respects with my fishing buddies, Capt Jeff, Chris and Pedro on this topic. It appears to me that my good friends are making a very convincing argument based on their personal preferences when it come to timeshare. I also would put myself in the camp believing it hard to justify purchasing one if one does the math and only views it from that perspective. I have friends that own timeshares and are very happy with them. They are well run by developers that have kept their promises.

I would offer the comparison of me trying to convince my late wife what a good bargain it was that I went hunting and fishing and brought home all of that good food. My attempt at convincing her the money I spent on boats, motors, hunting equipment etc. was a good investment did not fly. I was unable to make that a convincing argument in her mind. Some things are not always done or justified as to the benefits gained solely on doing the math.

I think it is unfair to lump all timeshare buyers in the category of being taken advantage of and not knowing what they were doing. Granted, timeshare sales people can be very aggressive and use hard sell tactics. But I have to believe that the majority of those who buy see the advantages of time share ownership and accept that. There are advantages to some people. The real key to me on this is that time share has gotten a bad reputation because of some unscrupulous people in the business. This has been evident on AC. But, I still have to believe that when the concept is presented honestly and is regulated to prevent the unscrupulous from doing their ill, it can have advantages for some people. Unfortunately for right now, there is no regulation in Belize and the high pressure tactics and attempts to convince tourists to go to the sales presentation is having a negative impact on the island, IMO.

So there. How was that for straddling the fence on the issue?

Bywarren here is my point - show me anywhere on the planet where you can purchase a time share and think about it and show the papers to your attorney with no pressure. There is not a chance in hell this happens. All time share sellers are con men, not one will let you sleep on it or let you call them back at a later date - not one, which proves my previous statements above. If they have nothing to hide why not allow a two to three week free look? The reason this isn't allowed is because they are dishonest and all are flim-flam artists only out for the quick high commission. If there are honest ones they are far and few between and I have never heard of a honest time share agent. If you can show me one, I will apologize to all, though I have a better chance at getting hit by lightening.

Sorry Jeff, you are wrong in lumping all timeshare sales into one catagory. There are many places where it is regulated and provides for exactly what you are refering to. Example from the State of Nevada. NRS 119A.410 Right to cancel contract of sale.

1. The purchaser of a time share may cancel, by written notice, the contract of sale until midnight of the fifth calendar day following the date of execution of the contract. The contract of sale must include a statement of this right.

2. The right of cancellation may not be waived. Any attempt by the developer to obtain a waiver results in a contract which is voidable by the purchaser.

3. The notice of cancellation may be delivered personally to the developer or sent by certified mail or telegram to the business address of the developer.

4. The developer shall, within 15 days after receipt of the notice of cancellation, return all payments made by the purchaser.

(Added to NRS by 1983, 982; A 1985, 1141; 1987, 894; 2003, 984)



Please stay inside and out of the way of lightening for a while, buddy. :p

PS: I just showed the example from Nevada. Most places where timeshares are sold have a right of recision in the contract. This is either required through regulation or offered by those timeshares sales that are reputable. If dealing with one that does not have a right of recision in their contract, I would take my free be and get the hell out of there.

I stand corected my brother ,but have not seen one yet who did not high pressure you in to a deal ..if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it is a duck .a crook is a crook .but I will walk around a few more days with my lighting rod on ..I just feel bad for the nice folks who get screwed every day by the con men who sell time share just to turn a quick buck ...how do they sleep nights?????

Caveat Emptor. Those words were used long before timeshare sales were conceived and still have importance that needs to be recognized. If all high pressure sales persons and practices were eliminated, there would be a hugh decline in sales of many things. Now I deferentiate between high pressure and illegal or deceptive practices.

I am no fan of timeshares but I do believe that there are reputable people in that business. Not all are as some we have seen on AC.

Let me chime in here about time share salespeople. My wife and I had an unhappy experience in San Pedro last month with Capt. Morgans.

We were spending an afternoon walking around town doing some shopping and were approached on the street by someone who asked if we spoke English. Then he asked where we were staying, Xanadu, da, da ,da. He said he was promoting the "North End of the Island" and asked if we had been up there. We politely told him no and we had to go.....he asked before we left to draw from his bag to see if we had won a prize. We drew and our prize said "First Prize, $2,500." He then told us they only give away one of those every few weeks and all we had to do to collect was to visit Capt. Morgans. He said we could spend the day, free drinks and meals, and a boat would take us back whenever we were ready to leave. I should have known better.......

Well, wanted us to come the next afternoon, but we had a dive trip scheduled for 1300 and told him we would have to go early AM. He says no problem, he would pick us up at 0800 at our dock. We told him we had to be back before 1230, no problem he says. Not once did he mention time share, just view and enjoy the resort.

Their boat picked us up the next morning, a half hour late, and took us up to Capt. Morgans where we were met at the dock by a very cute young lady in very skimpy dress clothes. She welcomed us and took us to a table by the pool. Then she started asking all sorts of questions, where ya from, what do you do, (how much money do you make), too personal questions. Then I knew we had been scammed. told her we weren't interested in buying anything, just came to collect our $2,500 and check out Capt. Morgans. Well, she excused herself and was soon replaced with another attractive, skimpy dressed lady? who was to give us our tour, which she said we must take before we could collect our prize. What the heck, in for a penny, in for a pound.

So we took the grand tour, then got the hard sales pitch, then was passed on to a professional closer who wanted us to immediately sign a sales agreement. No way, I don't buy anything without thinking about it awhile, says I. He says think about it for an hour and he would be back. No thanks said I. I would think about it and let him know in a few days. He says no, the offer is good today only, it would be $10,000 more if I wanted it tomorrow. I told him that if the deal was legit, that the price would be good for at least 30 days. He says no way, today or never. I say no way, go pound sand, give me my prize and call the boat to pick us up. We were on a schedule. After much whining he turned us back over to our initial floozy greeter who told us the boat was not available for awhile, but she would go and get our prize.

Well, the "prize" was NOT $2,500 as they had stated in writing, it was a certificate good for 7 nights at Capt. Morgans. I fussed about misrepresentation and scam artist and such to no avail.

Wanted to go back immediately to Xanadu and make our afternoon dive as they had promised we could leave when ready, but they could not produce a boat all of a sudden. So my wife and I went to the bar and ordered a couple of drinks. Along comes floozy number 3 with another offer, sign now, save so and so......last chance. Told her to go pound sand, too and get me a damn boat. She left. We got up to walk to the dock to wait and bartender says $14.50 for the drinks! We say we were told the drinks and food was free. He says only if you buy a timeshare. Told him to go pound sand too, not that politely. Went to the dock and waited another hour on the lost boat. Finally came.

Missed our dive trip which we pre paid, wasted the whole day and was peeved to boot. The only time I was angry in 10 days! Been conned, lied to, misrepresented and intentionally delayed.

As far as I'm concerned Capt. Morgans owes me the $2,500 they promised us, the $250 for our dive trip, and another $500 for wasting one of our valuable vacation days (which cost more than $500). And they don't have a prayer of me ever staying there even for the "free" 7 days. I'd rather be at the Xanadu where there is some integrity.

Now, if any of you on this board represents this bunch of sand pounding crooks, I'd be glad to have a discussion with you about your business ethics. Right here in public.

Larry Teuton

Capt. Jeff
I don't want to be an island jumper but just curious, any timershares on Key Calker yet???

Excuse me for butting in here, but after reading all this I am concerned that last year I purchased a 99 year timeshare contract. I paid just under $9000 cash for the transaction, my maintanace fees are $395 yearly. It is a bi-yearly contract.

I have never owned a timeshare nor did I know anything about them. I just loved AC and SP so much I wanted a connection. I reason to always come again. Did I get taken?

I'm looking at condo/appt @ Village Reef now.

Can you help guide me?

Larry, we all have made that mistake before, whether it was a time share or a new car, where the sales person decides to be as much as an __hole as possible. Congrats on sticking to your guns and getting out of there as soon as you could.
Bywarren, you never did respond to Jeff's message about sales techniques. All you did was recite a Nevada law that was enacted in order to address the unethical, sleazy sales techniques described by Jeff. The situation that Larry faced is still very much in use and threatens to ruin many vacations which are paid for by honest people with hard-earned money. I don't see how anyone can justify that type of practice.

Larry, if we ever run into you in SP, I'll buy you a drink of your choice, no strings attached.

I am starting to see things that disturb me on this board. Timeshare vampires, muggings, people who want to know if they can get their own brand of foo foo booze in SP, and even Belikin in plastic bottles. Will I have to bring hard shoes and a tie on my next trip?

I responded to Jeff's comment that he was unaware of any timeshare sales that had a right of recision. I am opposed to many of the unscrupulous sales techniques used in that industry and am especially disheartend by some that have been used on AC. On the other hand, I have friends that have purchased timeshares and have been treated in an ethical way. I do not believe you can paint the whole industry with the same brush. The concept appeals to some, actually you could say many if you look at how much is being sold. I do not believe that everyone who purchased a timeshare was mislead or a victim.

Hey, I was an automobile dealer for over 30 years. I believe I treated people ethically and had many satisfied customers that returned. That is not to say others have not been treated differently by some in my business. I do not care if you are talking about car dealers, timeshare sales people, attorneys, preachers or any other profession, you cannot lump all into the same catogory.

And to shelley: if you were happy with the purchase when you bought it, you stand a good chance of being happy with it in the future. You bought a timeshare and time will tell. As long as Captain Morgans keeps the place nice and the fees remain resonable and you keep enjoying your week in Belize, you will be happy with your choice. Don't worry - be happy. Think positive and don't worry about the future for now.

Bywarren- We were treated very well by all @ CM. The people were as friendly a folk as I've ever met and had no reservations at the time. It sounds as though they might have had someone of lesser moral's selling at the time Larry was there. That is unfortunate.

As for the investment in a timeshare, what is your opinion?

From my experience, owning a timeshare can be worthwhile, but the decision to by needs to be well thought out and with eyes wide open. We’ve owned timeshares for about 10 years and have no complaints – the math has worked well for us, but that’s not why we purchased. With that experience, here are my does and don’ts:

1. Never purchase from the developer. A huge portion of their price is commission and marketing costs. Anything being sold today by the developer will be available tomorrow on the resale market at a 50% discount.

2. Recognize that contrary to salespeople claims otherwise, timeshares really aren’t real estate. Your purchase is not going to appreciate and buying a timeshare is not an investment in the traditional terms. They only make sense for someone that is committed to going on a vacation every year - to either the resort they purchase or to someplace they trade into through RCI or II.

3. Don’t make a buy decision based on anticipated savings over a period of time. You’ve got to consider the original purchase a “sunk cost” that you’re only going to recover (without interest) if/when you sell. Think of it as an investment in your sanity, rather than as a financial investment.

4. Understand that if you buy a timeshare outside of the US, you’re probably not going to have the same protections we take for granted in the states. Poor or unethical management of the resort could put you at risk of paying special assessments or losing your ownership. Don’t pay more than you’re willing to lose.

5. Buy someplace that you want to visit repeatedly – don’t expect to trade your week to another resort every year.

6. NEVER waste your time while on vacation attending a timeshare presentation – the offered prizes aren’t worth your time and only a masochist enjoys the pressure exerted by the sales people. The timeshare presentation always takes longer than promised and the salesperson is pleasant only as long as he/she believes a sale is possible.

Timeshares aren’t for everybody – and, maybe we’ve just been fortunate. But, contrary to my rule #3, our total cost over the past 10 years is about $140 per night for a 2 bed/2 bath beachfront condo – that’s considering the purchase price and annual assessments, which are currently $600/year. So on one hand, Pedro is right - $30,000 per year per unit for assessments feels too high. But, on the other hand, we’re spending $85/night for a place that goes for more than $200/night in comparable properties.

Bobber sez....
Larry, if we ever run into you in SP, I'll buy you a drink of your choice, no strings attached.

Why thank you Mr. Bobber. Very friendly of you. You don't represent Capt. Morgans, do you? If not, I'd be glad to buy you a couple, also.

Shelley, I think Skyliner answered you as good as I could. Like I said, think positive. You have invested, pre-paid or whatever you want to call it in a weeks vacation on AC. Look forward to enjoying that.

Skyliner said.....
6. NEVER waste your time while on vacation attending a timeshare presentation – the offered prizes aren’t worth your time and only a masochist enjoys the pressure exerted by the sales people. The timeshare presentation always takes longer than promised and the salesperson is pleasant only as long as he/she believes a sale is possible.

The problem is, Skyliner, that they never let on they were trying to sell us anything until we were captive (kidnapped). We were VERY dissapointed wasting a day of vacation dealing with these scumbags. I know it was our fault, we were gullible and don't get out much to places like this.

It may be a good property, it may be a good deal, but it was misrepresented from the start. And who in there right mind makes a $20,000 decision without some thought? I didn't get my $2,500, didn't get any free meals, didn't get any free drinks, didn't enjoy the resort for the day, didn't get back in time to make our dive trip.

They kept not one promise that they made. Is this the kind of people you would make a long term investment with?

I wouldn't buy a two bedroom unit from them for $50. They'd probably have me hot bunking with the pool man.

posted 08-16-2004 18:12
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bywarren- We were treated very well by all @ CM. The people were as friendly a folk as I've ever met and had no reservations at the time. It sounds as though they might have had someone of lesser moral's selling at the time Larry was there. That is unfortunate.



Shelly, they were very friendly to us also, as friendly as you could ask for, until we told them no. And as I said, we were passed from one person to another to another to another. Hunky men for the wife, hot babes for me, something for everyone. The ethics obviously didn't come from one salesperson but they had a whole crew running the scam. After we told them no, they were not friendly anymore. Rude is the only discription.

Sorry to hear that. That was an unfortunate incident for you and your wife.

Although.... you & I are only two of many people they see and speak too. You would not judge the entire crew at CM by one bad incident would you? People earn livings how ever they can, it doesn't mean the whole bunch is that way.

OK -what happens when the developer decides to raise the "assessment" by 25% - you as an "owner i.e. someone who has the right to use" has no chance of going to court as the developer will still own the majority of weeks,and therefore is the majority shareholder.
Try and swop a week -almost impossible.
TRY AND GET XMAS AND NEW YEAR IN SAN PEDRO-FORGET IT-unless you have just purchased your timeshare-your first years vacation will be exactly what you have requested-otherwise the developer will rent out all superior weeks to normal tourists at premium rates. AND! His salespeople will pressure THOSE tourists into buying timeshares! No, he won't pay you any commission.

Does the conmpany actually own the resort that they have sold you-all you have is a salesman's word-read your contract carefully -I know for sure that two resorts have not been paid for but the developers say they own it-ON THIS ISLAND

Larry: This is the very kind of thing that tarnishes the industry's image. Unfortunately this highly unethical, British based marketing company is ruining it for others who may market their product in a legitimate manner.

It is most unfortunate "dinosaurs" are still in this industry. This product has changed and morphed so much, there is really no need for high pressure, unless you are selling a piece of garbage. The problem is, these "veterans" don't know how to "soft sell". The vacation club at Captain Morgan's is nice enough to sell itself, if allowed to, and not jammed down your throat. Before the British based sales and marketing team was contracted, a particular sales person did EXTREMELY well using the soft sell approach. Perhaps this will be adjusted, and the reigns given back to her, for all our sakes. :p

This can be blamed on inexperience on Captain Morgan's behalf as a new developer.

The BTB is currently drafting timeshare legislation. The young man in charge is very bright and the new law looks fantastic. As with the Offshore Legislation, the GOB has looked into several other jurisdictions for examples. Taking the best from all areas. A rescission clause will be part of this new law.

Thus, the danger of high pressure, you can cancel (rescinds) the next day after you recover from the high pressure crunch. Most of the sales teams have left the US due to this rescission factor and ended up in areas without this feature or with no laws. Hopefully Belize too will be soon rid of them. It's bad enough they are British.

A true sales pro will not resort to high pressure but rather build enough desire for the product that the customers are truly happy to join the development and have no remorse and do not rescind. And yes, many are given time to think it over, this is called a "be back" and counts for 1/3 of all sales at our six resorts.

FYI - 60% of Marriott's total timeshare revenue is from referral business. People getting their friends to join. Hmmm? 100% of our sales are from current timeshare owners. Hmmm?

We must have powers in mind control or have satisfied owners.

Here's the "inside" skinny on who is happy with their purchase:

Bought in the right place : either where they want to return on a regular basis or in a high demand area (Hawaii, Caribbean, Paris, etc...) which opens up the exchange option. If you buy in the Poconos or Branson, don't expect to exchange for Hawaii or St. John, it won't happen.

Bought for the right reason : to vacation, not to make money renting it or selling it in the future.

Have you ever heard of the investor that lost $50 in the stock market crash of the late 1920's? Most of us only hear about the folks who LOST EVERYTHING! We all know, as intelligent adults, that bad news is sensationalized. Would CNN and 60 minutes keep viewers with good news? Remember the trucks with exploding fuel tanks (hoax for ratings).

Timeshare had and has problems, but ALL developers are not the same. Just as all fishing guides, hotels/motels, TVs, resorts, cruise lines, automakers, .......... are not the same.

In all fairness, even with the worst of developers, it is the visiting guest's greed that gets them into the sales situation. I don't care how it is cloaked, I would never expect any resort on this planet to give me anything for free without giving them something in return, common sense. This is called MOOCHING, playing off the human greed factor, most people have it, except some on this board :rolleyes: . Guess what it works! ( although I don't agree with this tactic ) So if you don't like the concept, don't subject yourself to it. HELLO!? I wouldn't.

I bought my timeshare off the internet, with no salesperson, after doing my own due diligence.

I can understand folks being set in their opinions. This happens with age. Change can be good and allows for growth. No change = no growth. This is hard to deny.

It may be a good idea to step back, do some research and then make your case, as strong as you choose. A wise man once said "it is better to keep quiet and let people think you are stupid, then open your mouth and let people know you are stupid."

Timeshare opens up more opportunities for this island and nation. Timeshare resorts provide additional income for the various sectors of tourism. Even a bit more than conventional resorts/hotels. This is a entirely different forum, which I would be more than pleased to debate with you all. Debate is good, keeps me sharp.

I have met with timeshare developers, large and small, with plans for Placencia, PG, outer cayes and Caye Caulker. I'm not sure who will pan out.

SIN

we had a fun encounter with a salesman at Seven Seas, which was rough because we were staying there, as my dad gave us his time share week for our anniversary...we couldnt escape this guy.....after we said no, he told us that we were swimming in his pool, and we shouldnt even be vacationing in Belize.....I said, arent we swimming in my dad's pool????of course I didnt get a worthy response from him...just very arrogant, the rest of the week every time we saw him he had to make a comment about how he was living in paradise, but only the lucky few got to do that.....the way I see it is that I am the lucky one, not having to be around that except when I want to.....

To SIN, I like that monicker BTW.......

You are right. The property was fabulous and could have sold itself. The rooms beautiful and well equipped, the grounds perfectly kept, very nice and the price seemed reasonable. If the pressure had not been so intense I might have bought one. I was ( and am) in a position to write a check but I will not be coerced into anything. Well maybe some things, but not spending money with slick salespeople :-)

Any deal that is a today only deal makes me highly suspicious. Especially when I know they will be telling another couple the same thing tomorrow. Actually they were telling that to multiple couples every day.

The other thing that bothered us was that we didn't know it was a timeshare sales pitch until after we got there. Just niaeve on our part. The man in the street said he was promoting the North End, not CMs. I didn't even know CMs sold timeshares, just thought it was a normal hotel sort of resort. Live and learn. Only cost me a day and a $250 dive trip. Been screwed for worse. Wasn't even going to mention it until this thread came up.

I'm hoping someone from CM will respond to this. Any chance of that happening?

Larry,

I did not direct my comments at any individual - no criticism was intended - sorry if it sounded that way to you. I was only sharing my opinion, which has been formed by the discomfort of sitting through timeshare presentations and wasting precious vacation days. After feeling the frustration of pressure selling, combined with the wasted time and feeling like the incentive (gift) was not worth the lost time, my wife and I have sworn off timeshare presentations. My point #3 was actually trying to help others from reteating my mistakes!

I'm saddened to hear that San Pedro has the problem with timeshare people pestering tourists. We've been coming to AC since 1999 and we have never been bothered before. And, I hate to hear when someone gets treated the wasy you did.

I've met timeshare sales people all over - California, Hawaii & Puerto Vallarta. Despite the apparent good nature projected at the outset, inevitably the sales pitch deteriorates to the salesperson wanting me to explain to him my reasons for not buying their product. They set up a situation of trying to make the prospect defend themselves and their reasons for not buying. And everytime the prospect says "No - and than't final," the sales person has brought over the "closer" to make a final pitch. Like, "Well, how about every other year, instead of every year - it's only 67% as much."

There are plenty of variations on the pitch, but, you're never going to get away from the pressure sale. And, there are so many timeshare products out there, the pressure sale isn't going away.

Any and all complaints in regards to tourism related issues should be forwarded to Anthony Mahler at the BTB via www.travelbelize.org, it does matter to them.

SIN

SIN sez.....
Timeshare had and has problems, but ALL developers are not the same. Just as all fishing guides, hotels/motels, TVs, resorts, cruise lines, automakers, .......... are not the same.

I say.......
No doubt. I was only speaking about Capt. Morgans, not the Marriott.


SIN Sez......
In all fairness, even with the worst of developers, it is the visiting guest's greed that gets them into the sales situation. I don't care how it is cloaked, I would never expect any resort on this planet to give me anything for free without giving them something in return, common sense. This is called MOOCHING, playing off the human greed factor, most people have it, except some on this board . Guess what it works! ( although I don't agree with this tactic ) So if you don't like the concept, don't subject yourself to it. HELLO!? I wouldn't.

I say,
Of Course it works. But how to avoid it when it is so misrepresented. It would be much easier to avoid if you knew up front it was a sales situation and not a "come visit us for the day" situation. When we drew for our prize, the ticket plainly said "First Prize $2,500". It did not say "First Prize 7 Days at Capt. Morgans." In the US, that would mean $2,500 or a lawsuit.

I bought my timeshare off the internet, with no salesperson, after doing my own due diligence.


SIN sez......
It may be a good idea to step back, do some research and then make your case, as strong as you choose. A wise man once said "it is better to keep quiet and let people think you are stupid, then open your mouth and let people know you are stupid."

I say......
Excuse me but how do you step back and do research when you are given a now or never proposal? And what case are you asking me to make?

BTW, the wise man actually said" Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."

So what are you saying Mr. SIN, that I am a fool for not buying, or a fool to complain about their tactics? You can go pound sand, too.

Trust me, they'll see it. Hopefully they will use your feedback to correct the situation.

They had a good program before and people would know what they were visiting for.

It was friendly competition. But, as my developer states, they are ruining it and playing SP like it is Cancun or PV, I hope this never happens to this island.

SIN

Larry,

The above was not focused on your complaint, my apologies if I offended you. This was focused at those pushing personal opinions as fact.

Cool on the proverb, it was actually my dad, I guess, in his own words.

If you liked anything at all, anything about the program at CM, go to www.mvci.com and check out the Marriott model, all online and no pressure.

SIN

OK - for sales professionals;

If you are reading, a little advice to you-

When we meet with clients we have two objectives.

1) Make a sale, if not then ...
2) Leave the client feeling better about you and your resort than when they first came in.

If you think about it this makes a lot of sense.

This is the rule for real professionals, a good thing does not need pressure to be sold.

SIN

Sorry SIN, I got a bit testy. Now that I re-read, I see that I took that wrong, and it is I who should and do apologize to you.

As to the proverb, I think it was Mark Twain, will look that up to be accurate.

And yes, CM had a lot of things going for it. Everything but their approach. I will check out the Marriott as you suggest. BTW I have provided telecommunication services to our local Marriotts, Savannah and Hilton Head area for the last 10 years or more. They are a class act all the way. As with CM though, I didn't realize they were into timeshares.

As to your last post addressed to sales professionals, I can tell you might be one, because that is the way I run my (3) businesses. You may not buy from me, but you will feel good about me when I leave. You will certainly not feel the way I do about Capt. Morgans. I don't understand how people can operate like that and maintain a viable business over the long term.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, my snide remark and a good evening to ya :-)

SIN

Just let people decide over 30 days-or is that a problem????????
If they decide not to go ahead with the purchase -give them their money back - no chance-you guys will always take the money-please reply and lie

"Timeshare opens up more opportunities for this island and nation. Timeshare resorts provide additional income for the various sectors of tourism."

NOT TRUE: The correct statement is: "Timeshare opens up more opportunities for this group of timeshare salespersons. Timeshare resorts provide additional income for the various individuals and companies involved in Timeshare."

OK, here I go playing devils advocate and probably getting into trouble. Let me first say that this is not an attempt to defend the unscrupulous sales tactics used by some. Those are indefensible and unjustified in many cases and hopefully will do more harm to their business in the long run than what they might gain in the short term. And sorry Crackerlarry for using your example for my analysis, but unfortunately from your experience, it does bring up some points I think worth consideration.
I frame this in the context of impending regulations that Belize is apparently considering for timeshare sales. I know that it is and will always be impossible to have regulations that protect the consumer from, let me phrase it, themselves. Although I am in total favor of legislation like a right of recision.
Consumers will always be looking, as they should, for a “good deal”. That is why you see so much marketing saying “two for one sale, limited time offer, factory liquidation, inventory over stalked sale”, or any of the other terms used to project a better than normal time to buy.
Now as to the unfortunate experience with Captain Morgans, I am not sure that you could draft legislation that protect the consumer from what Crackerlarry was put thru. They apparently offered an incentive that lured him to their “spider web”. Granted, it appears the offer of $2500 was not completely represented by enough fine print and disclaimers stating it was not cash but rather value. But this is a case where human nature is used to the advantage of the offensive sales person. The offer could have been turned down. “If it looks too good to be true, it probably isn’t true.” But anyway, a conscious and personal decision was made to check it out. Once there, the potential “victims” were made to feel they had no option other than to listen to the sale pitch holding on to the hope the $2500 in cash would materialize. Now in reality, and granted possibly not know to the “victims” and not disclosed to them by the sales people, but they could have gotten on the water taxi any hour they chose and gotten out of there and on with their planed day.

Now once again, I am not trying to in anyway justify Captain Morgan’s approach. I think what they did was wrong and gives the island a bad reputation. My only point is, how do you prevent things like this from happening as long a people want the “good deal” or that “something for nothing.” I can see much difficulty in trying to have regulations that will prevent all of this and protect everyone from themselves and their own greed. Is not personal responsibility just as much a necessity here as government regulation.

Just some food for thought. Please don’t put me in the camp of supporting all of the timeshare sales tactics that go on, because I do not. But sometimes the picture is wider than what we limit our view to.

PS: Crakerlarry, thanks for sharing your unfortunate experience. Hopefully it will help others to avoid this sort to thing. It was totally missrepresented to you and should not have happened. I just am not sure how to prevent anything like this from ever happening other than doing just what you did and let others know what to watch out for.

Hello By, always a pleasure...a voice of reason...yep, you're exactly right. I stated from the start that it was my fault for getting involved with this. I was naive, gullable and maybe even had a bit of a buzz:-) The lure of free money sucked us in. At least I came to my senses before signing anything. If I had even know CM was in the timeshare business, alarm bells would have rang in my head. I'm a little slow in the way of big time resorts as I always tend to take the paths less traveled and avoid those sort of places. Just a simple country boy, don't get out much.

How do you go about catching a water taxi at CMs? I didn't know one was available or we would have taken it for sure. Heck, I was ready to start walking when the boat finally showed up. The CM staff didn't inform me that was an option and I just didn't know. Live and learn....

Maybe this will help someone else from being as uninformed as we were, anyway.

Could the quote you are looking for be from the Bible? Proverbs 17:28 NIV says "Even the fool is thought wise if he keeps silent."

SIN

Please explain the justification of purchasing timeshare when you lose automatically 80% of your monies immediately you have given it to your favourite timeshare salesman!!

PS The Hyatt/Sheraton actually offer their own exchange program and you can exchange for any room in any of their hotels around the world-in the case of your resort there is only one location and we all know RCI and II do not work.

To SIN, as promised I researched our wise man quote with no definitive results on the author, but the quote itself seems consistent. A google search attributed the quote to Mark Twain, as I had thought, in several of the hits......

Speaking of fools, my pal Mark Twain used to say, “Better to remain quiet and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt!”

But another (The History Channel)attributed it to Abe Lincoln....

The Best American General....


---------------------------------------
"It is better to remain quiet and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt." Abraham Lincoln

Hundreds of other hits had the exact quote and attributed it to "unknown" or "anonomous".

Whoever first quoted it I'm still not sure, but it is older than your Dad anyway:-)

And a very good quote to live by.....

Okie wrote...
Could the quote you are looking for be from the Bible? Proverbs 17:28 NIV says "Even the fool is thought wise if he keeps silent."

That's not the quote, but could very well be the origin........

kgb asks are time shares in key caulker yet ?? dam if know ???bet they will have the crooks there real soon ,???? my point show me a time share sales person who says think about it, and I will shut my mouth ..there are none in haven ..

But will Caye Caulker survive the cruise ship mobs?

Thanks Crackerlarry for taking my comments in the right spirit. I sort of feel like the attorney trying to defend the client that is actually guilty of murder. At least they get paid a fee. For those interested, the Island Ferry runs from Fido's dock to points north and back. I do not have their phone number handy as I have not found the need to be rescued from timeshare sales people.

Just a thought, but maybe CM saved your life.(LOL) If you were buzzed as stated, you should never ever go diving.

I pushed my luck with CrackLarry and got by with it, so let's see what happens when I pick on my buddy Capt. Jeff.

Is it a similar or fair analogy to after suggesting that timeshare salespeople don't try their best to close the deal and tell the people to go home and think about it, to also suggest that someone who has found Belize and enjoys it should choose to sacrafice income by not selling cruises that stop in Belize?

Probably not exactly similar circumstances, but just some more food for thought. And, dinner is on me next time Capt. Jeff for putting up with my cynicism.

Hey By, I also put up with your cynicism ?????

well cruises that stop in belize ,one would say bring in some dollars to the local comuniity.some would say no . we can not debate that on this post ... there is no clear cut right from wrong ..and some would say it does give people a chance to see belize and fall in love with the country ie..like capt jeff did with sanpedro .inturn now I spend lots of $$$$dollars in belize a true ,,win win ..it is not even close or make any sence to the crooks who sell time share to nice people and make them into suckers and screw them out of lots of money.. your analogy is far off base not even close.. like apples to ice cream makes no sence .... people that cruise like it and have a good time and love it or they do not like it . ,??we do not sell them a cruise for there life savings ..and they can think about it all they want and as long as they want .. before they travel and can cancel if they wish... people that buy time share have remorse for years and most regret that day they got taken for a life time ..

Kathy W. Read closer. The buzz was the day before the dive trip.

Larry

crackerlarry, you certainly have a justified complaint, thanks for the heads-ups about slizzy sales people at CM.
PS: If the "greed" handle fits anyone it certainly isn't the victim, but rather the predetor(s).
Hopefully, CM will get his act cleaned up.

OK buddy, Capt. Jeff. Points well made. But to further the argument, let me respond. Now I advance this with the premise that what is being sold is legal and no laws are broken in the selling process. For this discussion I will not even concede that the sales person has any moral or ethical obligations to determine whether the buyer can afford, needs, deserves, wants, will be happy with the purchase for the rest of their life or anything else. The buyer is the only person that has all of the knowledge necessary to make those decisions and it rest solely with the buyers personal responsibility to do so. Now I happen to personally believe there is a need for morals and ethics in sales, but that has been found to be hard to legislate and the market place is much better suited to handle that.

My position in this discussion is that the sales person’s only job is to get the buyer to sign on the bottom line and his income is solely dependant on that. That is why I brought up selling cruises. I do not believe it is your sales peoples job to determine whether the cruise business is good or bad for Belize and therefore whether or not they should sell a cruise that stops in Belize.

For you to suggest that the timeshare sales person has any obligation other than to sell at the best of his ability his product - in a legal way- would seem to also suggest that your salespeople, or any sales persons, would have similar obligations. I do not see that as their responsibility.

The decision to buy, and the responsibilities that come with that, lies solely with the buyer.
Caveat Emptor, Caveat Emptor, Caveat Emptor!!!

I further dispute your position as it seems to be based on no timeshare sale ever having a happy purchaser. I know personally people who own timeshares and are happy with their purchase. Further, I think you might be the one to exaggerate in attempting to make your point by inferring that everyone who buys a timeshare is investing their life savings. Reality is they are probably spending about half of the timeshare cost on their current vacation, or at least a substantial portion of it. Probably not close to their life savings. I don’t think you are giving these people enough credit.

And, the last cruise I took was about the same cost as a weeks time share in many places.

to end this post .in my opinon all time sales people are bad and crooks #1 there are vey few people that like time share almost none . #2 and no#3,if your friends are happy with a bad investment or are happy what they bought, good for them they are the only ones on the planet who liked the deal they got from time share ....I rest my case. will say no more on this as we both went back and forth on this ,way too much . the capt just livin the dream ..

No problem, buddy. Sometimes I enjoy "food for thought" just as much as you and I enjoy food for the body.

I've been railing against timeshares for decades, in public as a newpaper editor and and magazine editor, and privately, not that it does any good -- timeshares work because there are suckers born every minute and because with so much cash in the deal timeshares can afford to spend a ton on sales commissions and marketing.

Sure, there are timeshares that make some sense, especially if you buy on the secondary market, just as there are whores with hearts of golds ... but most don't and most aren't. (For one of my editorials on timeshares in Belize, see http://belizefirst.com/bfjan/timeshareshome.html which dates back to about 1998.)

The worst thing about timeshares is not that some poor fool gets suckered into spending a few thousand bucks. If it didn't happen with timeshares it would with something else.

The worst thing about timeshares is that what they do to a destination. The timeshare touts and the scum developers, who take a $1 million property and try to turn it into a $16 million property through multiple sales, turn off tourists and drive away quality tourism. It happened in parts of Hawaii, in Cozumel and elsewhere in Mexico, in areas of the Caribbean like St. Maarten, and elsewhere. Eventually government wises up and drives the scum away, but by then they've done a lot of damage. By then, though, the timeshare properties have owners spread throughout the world, and the timeshare properties deteriorate and eventually go into bankruptcy.

Happily, so far timeshares in Belize have been fairly benevolent. They are basically a way for hotel owners to get new revenue at the margins rather than as a central source of income. That may change as more sophisticated timeshare scum come to Belize.

--Lan Sluder
www.belizefirst.com

So, Lan, Kaui and Maui (USA) have driven timeshares away? Actually the timeshare industry saved Hawaii and put Cancun and Puerto Vallarta on the map. The Royal Group founded Cancun as a international destination (1972) that produces billions in revenue per year. Have you ever heard of SECOFI? Do a web search.

Timeshare models are NOT for hotel owners. It's an entirely different animal.

Speaking of whores ....

The father of MY Nation, NOT yours, the Right Honorable George Price, coined the term "Tourism is Whoreism!" He was the first Premier and Prime Minister of Belize and left office in 1993, just over a decade ago. Becareful of who you call a whore, if you exploit this land for any reason, 1 day or 99 years, you are selling out to tourism dollars. FORTUNATELY this policy has changed, FOR NOW. Thos who opened the doors to tourism opened the doors to timeshare.

As with all my posts on all forums, don't tell US how to live.

We are bourn with this dream (you are newcomers) which you want to live (Capt Jeff: "live the dream").

We can do just fine without your two sense.

SIN

Larry, Kathy, Warren ... thanks for a healthy debate. We can agree to disagree on some things with the overall benefit of Belize in view.

We are all still learning down here.

This is a good thing.

RALPH AND SAID - WE STAND BEHIND YOU THROUGH THIS TIME OF TURBULENCE!

SINH

SIN, some of your comments are very interesting. It is a great shame that you choose to hide behind a pseudonym.

BTW, I think it was the Government of Mexico and the World Bank who put Cancun on the map. Cancun is there despite timeshare, not because of it.

But, we must harken back to the post that started this thread "In Mexico it (timeshare sales pressure) has gotten so bad that we don't want to go there again."

Chris: YES, that I agree with. And yes, we went a bit off track here.

I do not condone the "hawking" of people off the street.

This is unecessary if you have a good "in-house" program that caters to current owners and exchangers. This works if you have a Vaction Club.

Yes, I would hate this Isle to be full of marketers bothering nice folks who paid good change to enjoy the laid back life of SP.

If doing thimeshare, do it the right way and leave the folks not staying in a timeshare alone.

Newspaper and other ads work for this.

SIN

Hehehe.

It gets down to brass tacks. Lots of pseudonyms, lots of slings and arrows, very little substance from those whose names are not known.

I've been to enough time share "sales presentations' to know when to make sure I'm not there...wherever they are.

I do know of one couple--exactly ONE--who told me of the "great deals" they've gotten buying four time share contracts on the secondary market from original buyers who were disheartened and not satisfied with their original purchases. They may be great deals for them as their repurchase amounts were fractions of the original charges.

Bargain shoppers may be rewarded. Just don't go for any deals (like a free $2500 in a foreign country) that look to be too good to be true. What are the chances?

And my references go to Mark Twain. I think I can find the original attribtution of his quote in my library, but I'm tired. Chances are, if the issue were forced, he'd admit he cribbed it from Proverbs.

Live, love, learn et.al.

Isn't the pseudonym the idea behind a chat forum?

Does democracy release the names of those who vote?

SIN

A deal that looks to good to be true is never a good deal. Common sense should prevail. Nothing is free, not even in the paradise that is San Pedro.

Mark Roberts, generally Republican. Ultimately responsible for everything I say. You can email me at my junk address, mjrobne@yahoo.com. I don't care. I'll dump it if it gets overwhelming.

I live in Omaha, Nebraska, USA.

Small business owner, legal and architectural copy and digital imaging shops, software development company. No timeshares owned, no affiliations with timeshare sales or developers.

Your turn, sport.

hmmmmmm never gave it a thought that pseudonyms were the ideas behind chat boards. I thought the idea behind them was idea & knowledge sharing, but what do I know, I'm just a gringo

ps: anyone else see a ghostwriter here?

Some of this "food for thought" is about to make me vomit. SIN, you are way off base with some of your remarks. Especially the ones attacking and name calling. You get on your high horse and think you have a right to tell others that their opinions on Belize only matters when they agree with yours or are positive about Belize. When Belize opens it's doors to tourism, they are asking for "customers" and they should listen to what their customers have to say. That doesn't mean you have to agree with everything they say, but you should at least have the courtesy to listen and not degrade them for their comments.

I really get tired of you Belizeans that have the attitude "it's my country and don't tell me how to run it". Well the fact is, you have sold off a lot of your country to others and that gives them a right to have imput on how it is run just as a customer has a right to comment on what they are spending their money for.

Now if we want to get into a discussion on how well Belizeans are running their country, lets do that and then you will really have something to get upset about because you won't like what many people will have to say about that.

I entered into this discussion and offered my views supporting some of what you are advocating. I said I was in the camp that did not think on the whole timeshare was good for Belize, but I felt there was relevant points that were not being fully supported.

When you write the type of personal attacks that you have, you degrade your agrument and help to make the points of those condeming what you are trying to promote. Plus, it really upsets me when you try and hide behind the flawed argument, "I am a Belizean and don't you people try and tell me anything about my country." You do a grave disservice to your country and fellow Belizeans.

PS: It appears you, or some level headed moderator, deleted the offensive post you wrote that I was refering to. A good thing. It is also a good thing you are not known personally to some of us. Remarks like you made might tend to generate a personal attack with more than just words.

P.P.S.: I hope the people you slandered did not see your deleted post. If they did, you owe them an apology.

sin some fellow borders said you said not nice things about me and personally attack me ,,shame on you , that you lost it like that, and had to stoop so low .let me know who you realy are so we can personaly discuss this man to man in person or man to women ??? when I am down next trip !!!!!!!!!!!!!!.you seemed like a Intelligent person till you lost your cool ..now you made good topic and conversation personal and got the wrong person mad at you trust me on that .... to have one enemy is one two many .let see if you reveal your true person .my bet is do not have the nerve..

And furthermore, with an attitude like “tourism is whoreism”, you are assuring failure. In the 36 plus years I have been enjoying Belize and Belizeans, I have attributed a good part of my enjoyment to the attitudes of the people, just as so many on this board refer to. To keep in the context of the metaphor “tourism is whoreism”, when the people who invited me to come here start faking orgasm, it will eventually become obvious and the enjoyment will not be the same.
When you start viewing your invited guest IE. your customers in the negative context of “Johns” and your people providing the services as “whores”, you are on the road to failure.

I hope for the sake of Belize, people like you SIN, are in the minority. There are enough of you trying to destroy your resources now for the short term gain. There are enough of your “elected politicians” robbing the country blind. I hope there will be voices of reason from your countrymen that will want to listen to all views and not take the attitude “it is MY country and don’t try and tell me how to run it”. I don’t want you or any Belizean to be saying in the future, “it was My country and I sure wish someone would have told us how to run it.”

I think I have spent enough time, money and have enough genuine concern for Belize and my friends there to have the right to speak my mind. If you don’t like that SIN, you would be much better off directing your criticism and derogatory remarks to your fellow countrymen that are doing far more damage to the future of your country than any tourist coming to visit.

I missed thje post -was he rude about me?
please tell this new Belizean

SIN _Being that wonderfully law abiding Mr. Chris Burkey-salesman to the rich and famous

pedro1 I did not know that he had other intrests other then the time share ,is this the guy from costa,maya why would he attack me,is he out of mind I liked that guy ?????????

Oh! do not worry Capt Jeff -timeshare is a sideline he actually has a far busier business,andI believe a much more profitable one,-I am just not too sure if legality fits into his psyche.

If a timeshare salesman and an IRS agent were both drowning, and you
could only save one of them,
would you go to lunch or head to the nearest bar?

depends on what his first career was - used car salesman or lawyer

Start chumming......

I'm sorry that I missed SINs message that started
this redirection. Anyone have a copy they can forward to me?

What's with all the censorship, anyway?

As to the question about hiding behind pseudonym screen names. My thoughts are that it is fine for general chit chat but if you have anything of substance to say, especially if it is of a critical, derogatory or accusatory nature, then you should sign your name or have the information in your profile. Otherwise it has no validity.

Larry

I am still curious if this guy (SIN) had the decency to delete the offensive remarks or someone else acted as his conscious.

My experience at CM's on my honeymoon in July:

Got stopped in the street by the French girl. Told the usual stuff that gringos get, but fortunately I "won" the grand prize. (wink, wink)

I was against the whole thing, figured if we wanted to see CM's, let's do it on our own, without the sales pitch, but my wife talked me into it.

Boat picked us up on time, salesperson (middle aged woman, name is slipping my mind at the moment) gave us the tour. Very nice property, too much "Temptation Island" stuff around for my taste, but different strokes I guess.

Then we met with the Scotsman that is the closer. Wrote out our package "price" on a sheet of paper out of the printer (very professional I must say) and asked for the 10% down. At this point, I asked to see the actual contract we would be signed, which I was told we could not see until after the deposit was handed over.

The next barrier was that the Scot crapped in his hat when I told him everything had to be cleared through my attorney and financial advisor. I got the "why don't you trust us" rap and the whole nine yards. At this point, I told him I'd need at least 30 days to decide, at which point the "deal" was off the table and I would have to pay "market price" for the whole thing.

So we left, had lunch (on the Scot's tab), tipped the staff nicely and went back to Ramon's.

Now any good deal, IMO, is good today or a month from now, as Capt Jeff has pointed out. My clients all have a window in which they can end services and receive full payment returned. As of yet, no one has asked to do so.

My two cents from the Motor City.

Very informative story. Thanks for the imput.

You see this is where SIN fails to get the message when he is critical of people giving their imput. He forgets that our two cents (US) worth is worth twice as much as his two cents (BZ)is worth.

I liiike it! I'm gonna use that one.


The idea was, "...don't throw stones". I made reference to a known fact.

You are making a statement which may possibly take food off my family's table. Why should I not answer my accusers?

SIN

I am still interested in whether you had the decency to delete your offensive post or if someone else did.

And, you probably do not get the subtle reference to US$ and BZ$. Just to make it more understandable, the underlying reasoning is listening to what customers say can be worth twice as much sometimes as just listening to what you want to hear.

Jeff N., sorry, which property was this?

bywarren, SIN is a consortium, and not tyring to sound like a smart-@#%, I did get what you said. I was taught we have two ears and one mouth, so we should listen twice as much as we talk.

I din't think I was the one with the overwhelming negative and very pointed posts.

Point well taken.

SIN

bywarren, SIN is a consortium.

Does anyone else know if that is an answer to my question? Am I missing some words of wisdom here that are going over my head?

"You are making a statement which may possibly take food off my family's table. "

Are we supposed to feel sorry for you?? maybe for your family , but not for you. The types of timeshare "salesmen" that have been mentioned on this board surely don't have any qualms about taking food off someone else's table through lies and misrepresentations.....let me ask you this.....we stayed at Seven Seas and were not able to avoid the salesman since he lives on property, was it our "greed" that got us involved, or our curiosity that led us to sit through his pitch??...

sin..... if you are a time share salesperson then why not just come out and say it ????? and not hide who you are... ???? somepeople on this board say they know who you are ..you never said that you where ???a sales person ...next is if you did say who you where ,and what you do ..maybe some people would have cut you some slack ??? I never tell a man what to do with his life ..and lord knows I am far from a angel,and no way am I going to haven ,thats a give me.but have seen the light and have changed my ways..and I can tell you in the last few years haved helped lots of folks that needed help and it makes me happy to do it ..now you on the other hand hide what you do and who you are ,,why???? are you ashamed of your self and your acomplishments , nobody attacked you as a person ... why because we do not know who you are or if your for real ???the fact is you lost your cool ...and my question to you would you say what you said to my face ??my money is no way ...you see I can talk the talk and walk the walk thats a fact .so you need to come out and be honest what you do and who you are ..then we can go one to one in private ..some posts ago on a different topic you stated you can not afford to eat out a lot. and mostly eat home . but when you do have the money you go out to a resturant casa picasco but not often.. .I am truly sorry you are not doing well$$ but our comments where not personaly directed to you or your family I would have never done that ... your bio states occuption tourisiam infomation services ,and not time share,my point is nobody including me would have said bad things about you or your family or friends we where only generlising about time share saleseople and not about you . you said not nice things directed to me. you do not jack poop about me .. shame on you again for ,stooping so low. you see my life is a open book and I have worked hard and long and to accomplish the things thankfully that lets me live the dream,every day .... but I will be nice to you .... my wish to you is you can get some wisdom to accompish this for your self be successful and have a happy life,with out hate ,and jealously then you truly will see the light and be a better person ..

CanjunMan;

You didn't purchase, correct? OK, no loss to you, only your time. Nodoby bad mouthed you, publicly on a public forum, for choosing not to buy from Seven Seas.

Feel sorry.....? :rolleyes: You just don't get it, do you? Me and my folks were not looking for you pity.

Rather, a past (deleted) statement was fired in defense of equally slanderous remarks aimed at myself. I wasn't the one to first "take the gloves off".

Bob Markley "Judge not ....."

SIN

Who the hell is 'Bob MARKLEY'?

Still no answer to my question, SIN. :rolleyes:

Who the hell is Bob Markley?

AND, what the hell does LOL mean?

I think somebody (SIN) needs to have a Belikin.

LOL means Laughing Out Loud. Unless SIN had a typo error and meant Bob Marley, he might have been refering to:

"The West Coast Pop Art Experimental Band (WCPAEB) are a showcase for the various dementias of vocalist Bob Markley (paranoia and a very keen interest in young --emphasis on young -- women), and the electric shock treatment of guitarist/vocalist Dan Harris; the album's rich harmonies and full, delicate arrangements show the abundant influence of Michael Lloyd, who co-produced the album with Markley; tracks such as 'Elegant Ellen', 'Sweet Lady Eleven' and 'Magic Cat' are nearly as good as some of the highlights from the WCPAEB catalog; a surprisingly consistent and accomplished album for a band about to collapse under the collective weight of it's own insanity."


Judging from those last few words, SIN might have actually meant Bob Markley as they seem appropriate to both Markley and SIN. :p

Wow bywarren: you are so thorough on everything you do. Hope when I retire in 30 years that burned out feeling also retires and the gumption to research things returns.

You must be a great guy!!! Hope to meet you in AC someday.

Malibu, judging from your second to the last sentence, you are a very knowledgable person who speaks great wisdom. If you are reading this Pedro 1, take notice.

BYWRREN

As ususual you have forgotten how many times that you have said "peter you are absolutely correct in what you sayand write".

PLEASE, refresh my memory.

bywarren, just a possibly interest thang: I was born in Peoria, shortly thereafter moved to Chicago. From where in IL do you hail?

Born and raised and spent my business life in East Moline. Now it is 6 months in Belize, 4 in Arkansas and 2 in South Dakota with a few visits back to IL to see kids and grandkids.

Pedro, you are right the few times I said that makes them hard to rememeber. :p

Cool runnins' Capt. Jeff. Peace be the journey.

If ya'll knew the music you would get the idea of which profit I inteded to refer to.

Electro shock (yikes) ?! TMI

I guess we all did manage to keep the spotlight on Captain Morgan's (with the numerous replies to this post).

SIN

sin all well in good ,peace my brother or what have .. .. the question are you a time share person ,and who are you .???? this is the same question ever body asked you .why are you playing your silly game again ..why do you want to be so secret ..????????? you sound like a sharp brite guy ????? you do not have something to hide do you ?????lets all love one another ..

SIN, youre correct, nobody bad mouthed me on any forum, and I agree no one should have to put up with that.....I was really just trying to get my point across about the greedy tourist issue......Im sure you dont want anyone's pity.....and yes, I do get it......keep on truckin' SIN..it takes all kinds to make this world go round.....

SIN, you have still not answered the question if it was you that deleted your offensive post or the moderator. You did refer to it as "deleted", but have not stated who deleted it.

Maybe the question unanswered is answered. :rolleyes:

marty did ,there you go ..

I guess that is no surprise that anyone who would write those kind of vile and offensive remarks would not have the decency to delete them and apologize, only to attempt to justify them as a response to attacks.

that's OK bywarren, he didnt answer my question about greedy tourists either.....

Cajunman, I too must admit to using the word greed in describing how a person might become victim to the timeshare lure. In reflection, that was a poor choice of a word.

“Greed>noun intense and selfish desire for food, wealth or power."

That does not accurately describe a person’s human nature to want to accept a gift that they feel is what might be better described as a windfall or sudden unexpected piece of good fortune. It is the unscrupulous salesperson that preys on that from people who are otherwise well intentioned.

I stand corrected.

I must thank you all, as this topic has been most imformative. I do appreciate the "heads up" as I will be visiting AC for the first time in October. Enough information has been presented in this topic for one to make a fair choice about any timeshare offer that may present itself. It should be required reading for anyone visiting AC.

I am sorry if I offended anyone with my previously posted "joke". It was just a joke.

I like pedro 1's response wasn't it Nixion that said," I am not a crook!".
time share has such a bad rap they have changed their name to protect the innocent 'Vacation shareing'

SlimJim
Loved your joke - changed the characters to lawyers and told it a couple of times already!

Nixon was a crook?

Thanks lawcucui. And you ARE an attorney!

Yeah, SlimJim - even lawyers know what's funny!

As stated in my post, "CM's"='s Captain Morgan's.