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Re: Gaza [Re: skippy] #316346
12/29/08 10:38 PM
12/29/08 10:38 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 890
skippy Offline
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skippy  Offline
Originally Posted by skippy
Peter et al, here's what our new President had to say about it:

Published: December 28, 2008 The New York Times
WASHINGTON — When President-elect Barack Obama went to Israel in July — to the very town, in fact, whose repeated shelling culminated in this weekend’s new fighting in Gaza — he all but endorsed the punishing Israeli attacks now unfolding.

“If somebody was sending rockets into my house, where my two daughters sleep at night, I’m going to do everything in my power to stop that,” he told reporters in Sderot, a small city on the edge of Gaza that has been hit repeatedly by rocket fire. “And I would expect Israelis to do the same thing.”


I've got a good feeling about this guy



President Obama says "And I would expect Israelis to do the same thing." As he would.

And they are!



I hope that someday we can put aside our fears and prejudices and just laugh at people.
Re: Gaza [Re: skippy] #316353
12/30/08 05:18 AM
12/30/08 05:18 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 46
CROC Offline
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CROC  Offline
Y

Last edited by CROC; 12/30/08 06:02 AM.
Re: Gaza [Re: CROC] #316371
12/30/08 09:35 AM
12/30/08 09:35 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,094
D
Danny2 Offline
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Danny2  Offline
D

This situation is not proportional. It's like one child hitting another with a stone and the injured runs home and tells dad. Dad decides the only way to deal with this to go and kill the other boy's entire family to end the violence.

Re: Gaza [Re: Danny2] #316372
12/30/08 09:47 AM
12/30/08 09:47 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,157
Plano,Tx
pugwash Offline

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pugwash  Offline
Think of it as many children throwing stones at members of Dads family and Dad destroying the quarry to deplete the supply of stones?

Those who live near the quarry, by desire or necessity will also be depleted, some unfortunately, some not so much.


It's rarely rocket science, it's usually just math: then again if you can't do the math.......
Re: Gaza [Re: Leah-Ann] #316376
12/30/08 10:07 AM
12/30/08 10:07 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,046
P
Peter Jones Offline OP
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Peter Jones  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Leah-Ann
Israel was NOT arbitrarily created out of other people's land - Israel's land was returned to its original owners ..... there really can be no debate that the Jewish people were the initial owners and that they have had possession of that land off and on throughout history .....The region was initially called Judea and inhabited by the Jews until the Romans conquered and renamed it Palestine. Later the Arabs conquered it and had primary possession for the next 1000 or so years.

Hard to separate out the bits I want to comment on! I have two points. The first is that the region was NOT initially called Judea and inhabited by Jews - I'm not quite sure when Judeasm started, but it was certainly well post Abraham. Prior to that time, whenever it was, the area had no association with Jews because there were no such people. I don't know when they first settled that area of land, but whenever it was it's irrelevant. It doesn't make it "theirs". Judeasm didn't start there - it started (AFAIK) either in Mesopotamia or near it.

The second is that if you study the movement of peoples over the past few thousand years (being increasingly understood, especially with the modern tool of mitochondrial DNA) you'll see that no region has been populated for long by what can be seen as a single homogeneous people. Go back even further and all the areas we are talking about, plus Europe, India, China, had yet to be populated by humans. This is all in the era of modern humans - I'm not going back to pre-humans. We really haven't been around all that long.

If it weren't for the myth (using that word in its strict sense, non-pejoratively) of what has become known to Christians as the Bible there would be no "history" of Jews in that region, nor in fact would there be such an identified grouping as "Jews". The whole thing is a tribal association. Just because they wrote down that they considered a particular region to be inalienably theirs doesn't make it so.

Even a quick look at the populations occupying northern Europe and the British Isles shows that there is no such thing as "British", "English", "Scottish" or "Irish". Each modern grouping, purely geographical and in no way ethnic, has pushed out and/or intermingled with other groups before it. Purely tribal, before the days that land was considered "owned" by anyone. In Britain, for example, there was no concept of land ownership (as opposed to current occupation) until the Normans arrived and set up the system because it was advantageous to them. If we were to decide to reinstate Britain (say) to it's "original" condition and restore its "original" and "rightful" inhabitants, just who would they be?

Your argument is the nub of the Jewish case for taking and keeping that land with no concern for anyone else and is behind the incredibly racist regime in Israel. Although Muslims have other reasons for rejecting Jewish claims and I don't subscribe to those reasons, I do support their claims as all the facts point that way.

For some months back at university I had a girl friend who was Jewish. I still have several friends from those days who are also Jewish, and indeed I have Jewish relatives. This girl and I fell out when she said something that I queried, to the effect that she was one of the chosen people and that I could never aspire to her level because I wasn't. We discussed this for a while and I left the relationship. How can you relate to anyone who says to your face that they are intrinsically better than you? In my observation this attitude is behind the modern country of Israel, and I fear that country is doomed to conflict until they realise that they're just humans, like the rest of us.

Re: Gaza [Re: Peter Jones] #316383
12/30/08 10:45 AM
12/30/08 10:45 AM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 890
skippy Offline
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skippy  Offline
You need to understand the bigger picture here. As someone else said earlier in this thread, the Palestinians have been shunned by the Arab countries for a long time, a lot longer than 1948 and the creation of Israel. That just took their minds off their bigger problem, the rest of the Arab world.

They are being gunned down at the Egypt border by Egypt. Now Egypt and Turkey are working together to open borders to them.

"Since Israel launched its Operation Cast Lead in Gaza on Saturday, (Hisbullah leader) Nasrallah spoke out mainly against Egypt and almost completely avoided mentioning Israel."

Egypt and Turkey working with Israel





I hope that someday we can put aside our fears and prejudices and just laugh at people.
Re: Gaza [Re: skippy] #316387
12/30/08 11:02 AM
12/30/08 11:02 AM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,094
D
Danny2 Offline
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Danny2  Offline
D

Peter, you are right. The Jewish People believe that God gave them that land. It says so in the Bible, so that is enough. I have never seen the deed from God.

Re: Gaza [Re: Danny2] #316390
12/30/08 11:41 AM
12/30/08 11:41 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 3,046
P
Peter Jones Offline OP
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Peter Jones  Offline OP
P
Skippy - what you cite is strategic manipulation of the minute and is certainly not the "big picture". Local politics will dictate all sorts of unlikely alliances, as they do in other parts of the world. Remember the story of the Trojan horse, where Troy's enemies simulated friendship to get close, then attacked?

It doesn't change the underlying motivation, which is what I was trying to get at.

I don't read Hebrew, but the website you cited appears to be Jewish-written. I wouldn't look to it for any sort of objective view.

Re: Gaza [Re: Peter Jones] #316429
12/30/08 03:44 PM
12/30/08 03:44 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,781
California
Leah-Ann Offline
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Leah-Ann  Offline
Originally Posted by Peter Jones
... the region was NOT initially called Judea and inhabited by Jews - I'm not quite sure when Judeasm started, but it was certainly well post Abraham. Prior to that time, whenever it was, the area had no association with Jews because there were no such people. I don't know when they first settled that area of land, but whenever it was it's irrelevant. It doesn't make it "theirs". Judeasm didn't start there - it started (AFAIK) either in Mesopotamia or near it.

You are correct that the Jewish people were not the first inhabitants of the area - that would be the Cannanites. However, science now demonstrates that the vast majority of present-day Jews are descended from the Canaanites and are all that remain of that culture. Testing has demonstrated that the Jewish people are a remarkably homogenous group genetically, especially when compared to other groups. Irrespective of your take on the religious aspects of biblical history, genetic evidence matches both time and place for Jewish origins and both are supported by archeological evidence as well. Sort of makes your claim that prior to Abraham the area had no association with Jews rather pointless.
The present-day attitudes you complain of appear to be more related to Zionism than to the Jewish culture/race in general. It is unfortunate, though certainly not uncommon, that a bad experience with a single individual has colored your perception of an entire group.


I can never remember which is better . . . safe? . . . or sorry?
Re: Gaza [Re: Leah-Ann] #316430
12/30/08 03:57 PM
12/30/08 03:57 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,157
Plano,Tx
pugwash Offline

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pugwash  Offline
Originally Posted by Leah-Ann
It is unfortunate, though certainly not uncommon, that a bad experience with a single individual has colored your perception of an entire group.

I certainly do not think that all Mennonites are bossy and opinionated.

I do not feel that all Californians are bossy and opinionated.

I do not feel that all attorneys are bossy and opinionated

I do not feel that all women are even women, let alone bossy and opinionated.

I do not believe in stereotyping

I do believe that eventually you have to consider a pattern though smile




Oh Yeh, I do believe that bossy and opinionated women make great pen pals wink


It's rarely rocket science, it's usually just math: then again if you can't do the math.......
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