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Re: ICJ ref with Guate info-Important info for voters [Re: Katie Valk] #458146
02/16/13 08:46 AM
02/16/13 08:46 AM
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Guatemala wants the referendums postponed

Guatemalan president says their required percentage for sparking referendum is “around 25,” while Belize’s is 60 percent. He wants Belize law changed.

Guatemala president Otto Perez Molina is advising Belize to amend its Referendum Act because he believes it serves as a disadvantage for Guatemala in the referendums in Belize and Guatemala, on whether the countries should take Guatemala’s claim on Belize to the International Court of Justice, which are scheduled to take place in October.

Guatemala’s law does not require a minimum percentage of their voting population to participate in a referendum, contrary to Belize’s Referendum Act, which was amended in 2008, that requires that for any referendum to be recognized in Belize, 60 percent of the registered voters must participate.

Guatemalan online newspaper Prensa Libre reported on Wednesday, February 13, 2013, that President Perez Molina said in an interview with The Associated Press in Madrid that Guatemala is not going to spend money on a referendum that they find unreasonable. The president added that Guatemala is asking Belize “to reconsider changes to its law with actual levels of participation.”

President Molina said that the average number of Guatemalan voters in a referendum is around 25 percent of the population.

A group of Guatemalan parliamentarians who call themselves “Bloque de Todos” (Block All) has asked the executive in Guatemala to postpone the October 6 referendum until Belize amends its referendum law.

Prensa Libre reported that the Block All made a statement that “It is necessary that the Government conduct new negotiations because the Belize Act provides that the query will be valid only if you use 60 percent of the population, and previous consultations have only gone from 30 to 35 percent.”

Our reports are that Belize Ambassador to Guatemala, Fred Martinez, was not aware of any of the issues reported. Amandala spoke to CEO of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Alexis Rosado, who said that he was also unaware of the reports.

Rosado said that he is aware that the Guatemalan president has instructed his people to proceed with the referendum.

“At the end of the day, we mind our business, and they mind theirs,” he said. “People will always try to disrupt the process. We need to remember that the media does not speak for the people. When we hear from the government directly, then we will have something to consider, but until then, we have no reason to discontinue the process,” said Rosado.

Amandala


Re: ICJ ref with Guate info-Important info for voters [Re: Katie Valk] #458433
02/20/13 09:41 AM
02/20/13 09:41 AM
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Letter: Questions for the government of Belize on the Guatemala-ICJ issue

Dear Members of the Belize Referendum Commission,

I am thanking you in advance for better equipping me to participate in the upcoming decision-making process through your clarifications on my few remaining questions:

1. What is Guatemala’s official position as to how much of the territory being claimed? How can we know determine if the rewards will outweigh the risks if the risks haven’t been clearly or at least officially specified?

2. How was the budget for the ICJ education campaign in Belize derived and mechanisms are in place to supervise the use of funds?

3. What will be the content of Guatemala’s message in its half of the education campaign and what are some of the ways it might affect the on the ground relations between the people of our two countries? What might be the result of 40 million dollars being spent on ‘educating’ Guatemalans of the strength of Guatemala’s claim to Belize?

4. Detail the actions we should expect the Guatemalan government to take to reduce border incursions should the ICJ decide in our favour?

5. Was 'legal consideration' (something of value given by both parties to a contract that induces them to enter into the agreement to exchange mutual performances) not required in this case? If no, why? If yes, what? Specifically, an ICJ ruling (should Belize decide to go in that direction) would be upwards of five years away, have our representatives received assurances from their Guatemalan counterparts that they would enforce some sort of moratorium on Guatemalans crossing the adjacency zone during the waiting period if both parties vote yes?

6. If this is a matter of essentially deciding the maritime access, why does it require 9 million dollars and a court decision? Don’t we already provide Guatemala access to the Caribbean? Does Guatemala want more access than we currently provide? How much more?

7. What if, instead of an education campaign educating Belizeans on the legal strength of territorial integrity, which 99.999% of Belizeans had always taken for granted, Belize launched a campaign to sensitize Guatemalans to the fact while a decision in Guatemala’s favour would have zero impact on the life of the average Guatemalan, it could be potentially devastating to their neighbours in Belize? We’ve focused our diplomacy on appeasing the radicals of the political class, what if we tried appealing to the humanity of the wider Guatemalan populace?

8. Even if Guatemala officially accepts an ICJ decision in Belize’s favour, as long as Guatemalans along the border remain poor and as long as Belize’s side of the adjacency zone remains under occupied, the damaging border incursions will continue. Beyond the ICJ, what is Belize long term national strategy for managing the border region?

Kind regards,

Samiyyah RIFQA Andrewin
Founder, Belize UNBOXED

Caribbean News Now


Re: ICJ ref with Guate info-Important info for voters [Re: Katie Valk] #458452
02/20/13 12:47 PM
02/20/13 12:47 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,460
Belize City
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K
Great questions Sam and so pleased to see people doing their homework for this most important decision.


Belize based travel specialist
www.belize-trips.com
info@belize-trips.com
Re: ICJ ref with Guate info-Important info for voters [Re: Katie Valk] #459630
03/07/13 08:06 AM
03/07/13 08:06 AM
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 58,984
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Marty Offline

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UDP changed the referendum law in 2008

There is much hand wringing in Guatemala over the apparent failure to inform the President that the UDP changed the referendum law in 2008 to make it next to impossible to obtain a decision not wanted by the government.

The Belize Commission has been disbanded and the ambassador here put on the carpet.

Now a dissident letter has surfaced accusing the current Vice Foreign Minister of being very well aware of the dirty trick the UDP pulled and not telling his boss of the president about it before they signed up to the compromise.

Added to this is the allegation that the Vice Foreign Minister's lady IS A BELIZEAN, and worse of all is connected to a political party in Belize.

And that she is the Mata Hari that will has brought this whole mess unto Guatemala.

---------

POR GEOVANNI CONTRERAS CIUDAD DE GUATEMALA

En el mensaje, un “grupo de diplomáticos del Ministerio de Relaciones Exteriores” señala al vicecanciller Carlos Raúl Morales de tener responsabilidad en todo el asunto por supuestamente conocer del cambio legal antes de firmar, el año pasado, el acuerdo para realizar el referendo el 6 de octubre próximo.

“Por motivos que desconocemos, el presidente Pérez no estuvo enterado de esta situación, por lo que se explica que en su declaración a la prensa guatemalteca el día 30 de enero 201, acusara al Gobierno anterior de todo lo que pasaba, sin mencionar la responsabilidad de su propio gobierno al firmar la fecha de las consultas popular”, dice el correo.

"La esposa de Carlos Raúl Morales es beliceña y además está vinculada a un partido político de Belice. Podría ser la Mata Hari de toda esta trama de intriga y desidia."

Re: ICJ ref with Guate info-Important info for voters [Re: Katie Valk] #459796
03/09/13 08:09 AM
03/09/13 08:09 AM
Joined: Oct 1999
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Guat Ministry Of Education Says "Belice Es Nuestro"

Tonight, news has emerged from the Guatemalan press which shows a map of their country, including Belize - which their Ministry of Education has said should be circulated to all schools.

The report in the Prensa Libre says that the Vice Minister of Education has ordered that quote, "It is right that the territory of Belize is included in the map of the Republic of Guatemala, divided by a dotted line and a phrase: territorial dispute, insular and maritime unresolved," For context, a vice-minister is similar in rank to a Ministry's CEO in Belize. Her letter also raises concern that "they view with concern the fact that some media, print and television are using only a partial map of Guatemala"

Belize's Ambassador to Guatemala Fred Martinez told us today that it, quote, "surprised us tremendously." He called it "a retrogressive step" and "totally out of order." He stressed however that this is the recommendation of the Guatemalan ministry of education - and at this point it is not clear whether it is an official policy. Martinez says he will not be able to confirm until next whether it is or isn't policy.

Martinez added that the article says they are distributing the new maps including Belize to the schools for teaching aids which is bad enough - but not as bad as embedding in the school text-books - which is not being proposed at this time.

The background to this is that the Comision De Belize - though it has been disbanded - maintained that during the run-up to the referendum and a possible appearance before the ICJ Guatemala must maintain in all official documents that Belize is part of its territory - demarcated by a dotted line.

The idea is to not give any official acknowledgement of Belize's independence which they fear could be used against them at the ICJ. Martinez pointed out to us that this is futile because as a principal, once the special agreement was signed - all actions after that cannot be put before the court.

Channel 7


Re: ICJ ref with Guate info-Important info for voters [Re: Katie Valk] #460263
03/15/13 07:42 AM
03/15/13 07:42 AM
Joined: Oct 1999
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Marty Offline

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Guatemalans Press "Panic", Want Out Of October Referendum

October 6, 2013 - we all have it marked on our calendars as the date for the referendum on whether or not Belizeans will choose to go to the ICJ to settle our territorial dispute with Guatemala.

But tonight, it looks like it may not happen - not on October the sixth, at least. And that's because the Guatemalans want to postpone it. According to a bulletin sent out yesterday from the office of the Guatemalan President, Otto Perez Molina, Guatemala proposes to change the date for the referendum.

Now, this is no simple undertaking; it is a big deal, a very big deal - and it has forced an emergency meeting with the Secretary General of the OAS in Washington on Monday. That's because - according to the President, the Guatemalans don't want to unilaterally change the date, they want a joint decision. But, that's not going to be easy to get because the Belize side hasn't blinked, meaning it remains firmly committed to the process for October of this year. Half an hour ago, the CEO in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Alexis Rosado gave us his reaction:

Alexis Rosado - CEO, Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Via Phone)
"Well, we're not entirely surprise. We know that they have been having difficulties internally. What is surprising is that, at that level you raised it."

Jules Vasquez
"You mean like at a press conference?"

Alexis Rosado
"Well, yes because if it's something that they're bringing to a meeting then we would expect that would bring it and we will discuss it. I understand they want to discuss it, and that's one of the things we're going to discuss in Washington."

Jules Vasquez
"The fact that he mentioned it at a press conference, is that indicative of the fact that we know that the president of being under pressure in his own country for the cost of the referendum and what they feel - what they feel is in prospect of success because of Belize's Prohibitive referendum threshold?"

Alexis Rosado
"Well it can't have anything to do with us. They would have to take care of their internal affairs and so would we. So I don't see how our own domestic and national legislation, rules and procedures can be affecting them."

Jules Vasquez
"However, if one reads the language of his statement, the clear impression that he is trying to give is that, well because Belize has this stipulation upon its referendum, that there must be 60% participation, well if that is the case, then we best postpone until 2014."

Alexis Rosado
"Well I wouldn't want to interpret what has been said over there, I'm sure you were talking to his domestic constituencies."

Jules Vasquez
"This appears to be a major consequential event. We have been heading inexorably towards this date for the past 5 years almost, and now suddenly we're told that - now suddenly they are saying in public - first of all in public, that well, maybe we will have to postpone it for a year. Is this an indication that the entire process is in imminent jeopardy of being of being derailed?"

Alexis Rosado
"Did they say for a year?"

Jules Vasquez
"Well they said until 2014, they did not say for a year. It would be 3 months."

Alexis Rosado
"Well, the important thing is that they do recognize and as they must, that it's a joint agreement, and this special agreement was signed by both countries. The date was also agreed by both countries, and any change in any of them will have to be done by both countries."

Jules Vasquez
"Yes, but are we prepare to make a decision to postpone along with the Guatemalans?"

Alexis Rosado
"Well, Jules, at this time we are committed to what we have agreed to, as is the norm. We commit to something, we keep and abide to what we commit and agree to. We are in a process that will lead us up to the 6th of October."

Jules Vasquez
"Sir, is the Referendum process on life support or is it in serious jeopardy tonight?"

Alexis Rosado
"No, no, no, I wouldn't go that far, it is definitely matter of concern, definitely a matter of concern because we've come a long way to get to this point, and any attempt at trying to change it and trying to adjust it, of course we'll have to look at it very seriously."

And while Rosado was diplomatic, the background to the Guatemalan announcement is that flatly, The Guatemalan President is under intense domestic pressure. First off, his government estimates that the referendum will cost their government 50 million US Dollars; that's 32 million on an education campaign, and 18 million on the actual day of the election.

Second, opposition parties in Guatemala are now beginning to put pressure on the Government for agreeing to a joint referendum with Belize - when our referendum law is very different from theirs; in Belize a 60% minimum voter turnout is required to legitimize a referendum.

And that's why it now seems the Guatemalans are trying to blame Belize for what was the law of the land before the special agreement was signed in late 2008. The Guatemalans are saying in their official release that if the Belizean law cannot be changed, then they'd prefer to postpone the referendum to sometime in 2014. Seasoned observers feel that if it is postponed, that's just a diplomatic way of abandoning it altogether - because who's to say that in 2014 they wont seek another postponement?

So that's where it stands tonight, with the October 6, 2013 referendum date - and indeed the entire process - very imperiled. We'll keep following it as developments lead to the Sunday meeting in Washington.

Channel 7


Re: ICJ ref with Guate info-Important info for voters [Re: Katie Valk] #460324
03/16/13 07:46 AM
03/16/13 07:46 AM
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 58,984
oregon, spr
Marty Offline

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Marty  Offline
from a friend....

Both countries reserved the right to pull out of the referendum for whatever reason.

I think that one of the factors that affected the dismantled Belize Commission is that they did not inform the president of the 2008 Referendum Act that requires 60 percent of the registered voters to participate this would [#%!] him off bc in 1992 AFTER negoiations in the maritime act was completed Belize added the requirement of ratification by popular vote.

(on the money issue if both countries decide to go to the icj and Belize wins we will most likely also get financial judgments against Guatemala)

Re: ICJ ref with Guate info-Important info for voters [Re: Katie Valk] #460330
03/16/13 08:05 AM
03/16/13 08:05 AM
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Marty Offline

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Marty  Offline

Belize Foreign Minister Says Belize May Go Ahead With It's Own Referendum

Foreign Minister Wilfred Elrington and a delegation of senior Belizean diplomats leave Belize tomorrow for Washington DC.

They are heading to an emergency Sunday night meeting with their Guatemalan counterparts and the Secretary General of the OAS, Jose Miguel Insulza. The subject is the Guatemalan government publicly pushing the panic button on the October sixth referendum.

On Wednesday, President Otto Perez Molina told the Guatemalan media that his country might want to postpone the referendum until next year.

That's not the kind of thing casually said in public - and today, Belizean Foreign Minister Elrington discussed the implications of this extraordinary pronouncement by President Perez Molina:

Hon. Wilfred Elrington - Minister of Foreign Affairs
"I was certainly surprised that he would have been talking about it in the press. We have been discussing with his foreign minister, and we thought that we would have kept it at the level where, we would make any public announcement until after we have met with the people at the OAS,. So that was a surprise to me. I get the sense that he is getting pressured in his own country, and he has to speak to his constituencies, so that they can allay any fears that they may have and I think that might be one of the reasons why he would have been moved to do that."

Jules Vasquez "Outwardly, it's such an act of ill faith - poor faith, bad faith, that you should announce something via a press release - speaking with members of the press and not informed your partners in this."

Hon. Wilfred Elrington
"We think it's unfortunate that pronouncement was made to the press by the president, but they had their own constraints. They have their own considerations, and I don't think it is helpful for us to make any kind of negative comment on what they have done. They are a sovereign nation just like us, and we have got to understand that they may well have genuine problems. We have to hope that they will either hold the course with us, or we will then in fact have to make a determination that we would probably just want to continue on our own. But I don't think we can make a definitive position at this point in time, until we are hear what they're saying in detail, until we get the response from the OAS, and then we come back, put it to our cabinet, and also the Opposition because their very much a part of it.

Reporter
"From their media reports, they want us to change our referendum act to make it easier, I guess; however, what's the official position from the Guatemalan Government as to why they want to postpone or delay the referendum?"

Hon. Wilfred Elrington
"When we meet with the foreign minister, there were no suggestions from him that they wanted us to change our referendum act. I don't think that was raise at all."

Jules Vasquez
"But he is mentioning in his statement that Belize has the 60% and threshold, as if that is the issue, and you know there's the old saying that, when a baby wants to cry you just have to watch it."

Hon. Wilfred Elrington
"Yes, we had discussed the question of the threshold with the Guatemalan foreign Minister when we were in Chile, and we had gotten the indication from them that they were quite content with that. And as I said, when the foreign minister came here, the last time he was here like 3 weeks ago, again he did not raise the issue as the matter that was of concern to them. My understanding of his concern at that time, and their concern was that, given the time constraint they did not think that they were I a position to ensure the yes vote."

Jules Vasquez
"No one party can simply reverse out of disagreement unilaterally; It will be awful. It seems; looking at it from the outside, that they want an out, that they want somebody to save them. They want either the government - your government or the OAS or somebody to say, 'Yes, your right. let's move up away from October 6, 2013. Are we so inclined to give them that out?"

Hon. Wilfred Elrington
"I certainly would not be inclined to acquiesce to their proposal for an adjournment at all, and I don't think that would be the position of our delegation."

Reporter
"What if Belize wants to maintain th October 6th referendum, and Guatemala doesn't, can it - what impact that that imply?"

Hon. Wilfred Elrington
"I personally think that we could proceed to have our referendum on the 6th of October, because really and truly the final analysis, what we want is to get the indication from the Belizean people as to how they want to have it resolved. They can do theirs later on."

Jules Vasquez
"I know the timing of the referendum was meant to coincide more or less with the election cycle in both countries. You'd have governments which are relatively new, and have some capitals to burn for extremists who may wish to create ruction. However with that being established, would you agree that if we postpone until 2014, or if one side postpones till 2014, in fact they will only lose momentum and critical mass and make it likely that they'll never have a referendum."

Hon. Wilfred Elrington
"Yeah, another - you're quite right, Jules. The other consideration that has always, had to be borne in mind is that, both countries this issue tends to be used as a political football. So, the most ideal time for having the referendum, is not a time when you have an election imminent. It's best to have it when there's no elections around so that politicians are not scared to act how they really think about it, to act in accordance with their conscience. Putting it off for another time, now you're getting nearer to election time, it brings on additional concerns, fears, pressures and worries, and it certainly would not be in our best interest. We don't believe that that would be in our best interest."

Channel 7


Re: ICJ ref with Guate info-Important info for voters [Re: Katie Valk] #460419
03/17/13 10:35 PM
03/17/13 10:35 PM
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 58,984
oregon, spr
Marty Offline

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Marty  Offline

Commentary: What will happen if Belizeans vote against going to the ICJ?

By Wellington C. Ramos

If the people of Belize vote “NO” to take the Guatemalan dispute to the International Court of Justice (ICJ), then the agreement signed between Guatemala and Belize will be fulfilled. This will also happen if the people of Guatemala vote “NO” in their referendum, which is scheduled to take place simultaneously in both countries on October 6, 2013. I have read the Anglo-Guatemalan Treaty signed between Great Britain and Guatemala in 1859 carefully and, based on that, I am fully confident that the court will rule in Belize’s favour.

In this treaty the country of Guatemala accepted and acknowledged the boundaries of Belize, which exist up to this day. If the government of Guatemala did not like anything that was contained in that document then they should not have signed it. Guatemala had more than enough time to bring Great Britain to the International Court of Justice to seek redress so that they could comply with the terms of the treaty. Yet, Guatemala failed to act and has engaged in all type of propaganda and threats to frighten Belizeans to take over the entire country of Belize. I hereby encourage Belizeans to read the 1859 Treaty to reduce their fears and stop listening to gossip and rumours.

Since Guatemala signed the treaty, it appears to me that they are sorry that they ever signed it because they are reclaiming territory that they had already acknowledged in the document that did not and does not belong to them. In the treaty there is a provision that clearly states that Britain must grant Guatemala access to the high seas through Belize’s territorial waters and both Britain and Belize have been complying with that provision of the treaty since it was signed. Not only has Guatemala maximized their access through Belize to the high seas in the Caribbean but they have been occupying some of our cays and even laid claim to them unknown to us.

This area is critical because it borders Belize, Honduras and Guatemala, which under international law will require a trilateral agreement between these three countries. Honduras has made it clear that if Belize cedes anything to Guatemala they will have to get land and territory also. This is the same thing with Mexico that had already signed an agreement with Great Britain relinquishing their claim to our country all the way up to the Sibun River in the 1800s.

I am against ceding any land to Honduras, Mexico, Guatemala or any other country because that will not solve the problem but just make it worse. Plus, I am convinced that they do not have the right to any land that Spain obtained through the use of military force against the indigenous Maya people who had been living in Belize centuries before Spain and Great Britain came to colonize these territories that did not belong to them. How humane and intelligent people can engage in these unjust exercises baffles me.

The government of Belize cannot tell Belizeans how to vote on this issue because it is delicate and controversial to most Belizean citizens. I myself am grappling with this issue because I am not convinced that even after we win this case in the International Court of Justice we can go to the United Nations to seek enforcement of the court ruling. The United Nations is an undemocratic institution because five nations possess veto powers in the UN Security Council, which are China, Russia, United States, France and Great Britain.

I can see Belize getting the votes from Russia, Great Britain and France but not from China and the United States. We can get China’s vote if we agree to sever our ties with Taiwan and I am not sure if Belize will be willing to do such because of the money we have been getting from them over the years. But now China has more money to give Belize than Taiwan. The United States had already promised Belize to Guatemala in the 1960s and they have vital interests in trade with them as opposed to Belize.

There are some Belizeans and Guatemalans that are opposed to taking this matter to the ICJ but for different reasons. The Belizeans who are opposed believe that there is no need to go to a court to prove that something belongs to you if you know that it belongs to you. I do not subscribe to that thought because even if a person knows that something belongs to them, if another person is claiming their property only a court can determine who the true owner of the property is. In the absence of a court there will always be a dispute and the possibility of a serious confrontation with the person who is claiming your property will always exist.

Belize cannot fight Guatemala in a war because it does not have the resources to match them. But in a court of law, might and strength does not always prevail. The Guatemalans who have been saying for centuries that Belize belongs to them are beginning to believe that they will lose this case at the International Court of Justice. I now urge my fellow Belizeans to conduct their own research on this dispute and read other people’s opinion on this matter before we vote in October of this year.

Caribbean News Now


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