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Re: cruise ship world - not good #73051
09/05/03 03:32 PM
09/05/03 03:32 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 256
Belize City, Belize
M
mayatravel Offline
 
mayatravel  Offline
M
Bywarren: I was referring to human nature, same here as there. People want to acquire as many toys as they can. I buy mine with honest dollars. But some people don't care how they amass their funds. Corruption as well, lots more there, but easier to spot here. I get the feeling that some posters on this board are trying to hold Belize people up to a higher standard than is required of them back home. Many(I hope) well meaning back seat drivers, talking about what ought to and ought not to happen here. With very little actual insight into the people or machinations in the country. I'm happy to have serious discussions with serious people who live day in and year out in Belize. Who survive on local salaries and who pay duty on their vehicles. Who spend time with Belize people who are friends and not just their employees. You live here? One of the great debating venues is the Round Table BBQ, every Saturday, starting at noon, in the Traveler's parking lot, mile 2 on the Northern Hywy. Great collection of every day and high ranking UDP and PUP people discussing topical events. And some people disgusted with both parties. Sound familiar? Fabulous back and forth, good fun with lots of very decent, hard working people. And I don't agree that the country ever had an eco tourism plan that is now being hijacked by cruise ship development, because, they never had a plan. The BTB only recently flexed it's marketing muscles. The eco tourism moniker was cultivated by the industry itself (20) years ago. People like the Flemings at Chaa Creek, Sharon Matola at the Zoo, Rosita Arvigo with herbal medicine. People around the world read articles about their accomplishments and about Belize. I believe it was the small stakeholders in tourism who created the eco tourism industry. Then GOB under PUP ups the taxes on the industry, some of the money goes to marketing Belize as an adventure destination and viola! Cruise ships docking for diving, caving and ruins, destroying it both ecologically and aesthetically. Remember Disney's "The Sorcerer's Apprentice", when they couldn't stop the buckets of water? Be careful, you might get what you sort of asked for.


Maya Travel Services
Re: cruise ship world - not good #73052
09/05/03 04:11 PM
09/05/03 04:11 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,717
Illinois, Arkansas,South Dakot...
bywarren Offline
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bywarren  Offline
All very good points, mayatravel. I too do not like to see people try and inflict their morals or values on others. On the other hand, I do not think it is wrong for people to engage in debate over things like the environment and any other issue that effect all people. I do not think a person’s concern for those issue needs to stop at their country’s boarder. I do not think it is an effective argument to say that just because someone else does poorly on an issue, it excuses me doing poorly. That would take us all to lowest denominator. I think the better approach is for all to look within and want to be as good as or better than the best.

I look at this debate as what decisions will be best for Belize and it’s people in the long run. I admit I do this from somewhat of a selfish viewpoint. I live in Belize about half of the year. I first came to Belize 35 years ago. I have been fortunate to have enjoyed Belize for all those years and now to be a resident and consider it a second home. I want it to retain all of the good things that attracted me to Belize and hope my children will be able to enjoy what I have. But back to my first point, I do not think anyone needs to have “credentials” to voice a concern or participate in a debate on what is good or bad for Belize.

The decision and debate on the cruise issue, like any other decision, needs to be made keeping in mind what the worse case scenario might be. I would hate to see the decision made on what I call the “gross dollar and short term greed”. It is not a question of how much money can Belize “gross” in the short term, but how much can it ”net” in the long term. Keep in mind the worse case scenario, if this cruise venture fails and damages Belize’s attraction as a tourist destination, then the cruise ships just go to another destination and Belize is left hoping it can rebuild it’s tourists industry and that it was not damaged beyond repair. The stakes are higher for Belize.

I think these will be important decisions for Belizeans, and I am glad that there are non-Belizeans
who care enough to engage in the debate.

PS: I guess after saying all that, I could have just said, "It is all in how you look at it. It is either someone sticking their nose is someone elses business or someone just showing genuine concern for someone elses business". wink

Re: cruise ship world - not good #73053
09/05/03 05:25 PM
09/05/03 05:25 PM
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 256
Belize City, Belize
M
mayatravel Offline
 
mayatravel  Offline
M
Fine, but remember you're critizing Belize from the country that won't even allow it's own citizens or politicians to air their opposition to the Iraq war without being labeled as traitors. But that's neither here nor there. Maybe what I'm trying to say, and it might be hard for people from the worlds number one world power to understand, is that countries want their own national sovereignty. Make their own decisions, right or wrong. Honestly or dishonestly. It would make sense for a Canadian to have a say in the Artic drilling debate, as it will affect their ecosystem. But do you think the US powers that be care about their opinions or how these decisions will affect these other people? And again, I know the horrors of the cruise ship industry. Like I said in another post, funeral services for tourism as we knew it will be announced shortly. You have no idea how badly the anti-dam contingant failed here because the foreign voices were much louder than the Belize voices. People naturally recoiled at a bigger power telling them what they should do again. Sort of like the same problems you have between the state and federal govt. Anyway, no more of this pls. This is a good platform for short replies to comments and questions, but not big things like this that have upteen elements to them. Come to round Table BBQ and we'll talk like people.


Maya Travel Services
Re: cruise ship world - not good #73054
09/05/03 06:37 PM
09/05/03 06:37 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,717
Illinois, Arkansas,South Dakot...
bywarren Offline
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bywarren  Offline
Your taking it like I said in my post script that people are sticking their nose in your business. I know I am doing it for the other reason and I hope many of the others are as well.

Thanks for the invite. The BBQ sounds inviting. smile

Another PS: I was trying to refrain from saying this, but I think I will say it anyway. There is no way anyone from the US can have any control over Belize's national sovereignty. But, when you ask people to come to your country and spend their money, just like with any other business, you should listen to what the customer has to say whether you like it or not.

Re: cruise ship world - not good #73055
09/05/03 07:51 PM
09/05/03 07:51 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,675
The Buckeye State, USA
dbdoberman Offline
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dbdoberman  Offline
Most, if not all of us, voice opinions because we deeply care about your lovely county. I hope you see it less as criticism, and more the sincere concern that it is meant to be. We are in no position to criticize -- that would be like the pot calling the kettle black. The USA has enough of our own social problems, that is true, and many of us do what we can about our problems here at home. Government corruption, crime, drugs, poverty -- we have it all. We are the land of plenty of everything. You did remind us though, Maya, how many Belizeans could take offense at our "armchair" advice. I hadn't really thought how our opinions here could appear to the people of Belize. I do apologize for that, but please believe that it isn't because we are arrogant enough to think we know how to "fix" Belize. It is our great regard for your country, that makes it more frustrating to realize that we are really powerless to do much more than discuss it here. Those things that we are empowered to do to, I believe most of us do; small things, like sending a letter or email (to both our governments when appropriate) regarding the dam proposal, cuts in heritage funding, the reinstitution of funds to assist Belize in finding alternative fuel sources, and just the small things that are done - donations of time and money to try and do something, anything, so that we can feel like we have helped our friend. Alas, aside from that, all we can do is talk, and maybe sometimes talk too much. You have a country that is rich in so many ways, the beautiful people, beautiful places, that beautiful ocean. Those of us who are getting to know it, those of us who have been guests many times, and those who now consider it their home, just don't want to see any negative impact on what we have come to love. The major concern we share with you, whether we are discussing cruise ships, crime, or drug smugglers, is what it could do to the real Belize economy -- hotels, shops, restaurants, small businesses etc., as well as the irreparable damage to the environment. Please never take it as an insult.

Thanks Maya for making good points that made me think. Let us know how Warren does at the BBQ!

Re: cruise ship world - not good #73056
09/05/03 09:19 PM
09/05/03 09:19 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,717
Illinois, Arkansas,South Dakot...
bywarren Offline
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bywarren  Offline
Very polite and well stated. I am impressed. It is nice to see people address criticism without criticizing. smile

Re: cruise ship world - not good #73057
09/05/03 10:09 PM
09/05/03 10:09 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 7,057
South Texas
Chloe Offline
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Chloe  Offline
Dob, you have named it and explained our feels extremely well. Thanks you. I concur.


Dare To Deviate
Re: cruise ship world - not good #73058
09/06/03 07:07 AM
09/06/03 07:07 AM
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 6,251
NYgal Offline
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NYgal  Offline
smile

Re: cruise ship world - not good #73059
09/06/03 10:39 AM
09/06/03 10:39 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 38
kmgentry Offline
 
kmgentry  Offline
Interesting discussion db and maya. I think maya makes a wonderful point about Belizeans not wanting outsiders telling them what to do (which I think is something we can all relate to). It's an intesting issue because I know every Belizean I asked about the dam said they didn't want foreigners telling them what to do with their country. And they were so annoyed with the foreign anti-dam movement, that they didn't get invovled themselves. But I think part of the problem was that the foreign movement didn't address the concerns Belizeans had about the dam.

Anyway, I too am worried that a large foreign-led anti-cruise-ship movement in Belize would have the same results. However, as I said before, most Belizeans I talked to expressed concern over the cruise-ship industry. And I think learning from the history of cruise-ship tourism in other destinations and the negative impacts on the host country as a whole should be an important consideration for Belizeans.

I'm all for Belizeans making money if that's what they want, but I don't think cruise-ship tourism is the way to do that for the majority of Belizeans in the long run. Sure, a few will benefit a great deal initially, and some will benefit from more jobs and such, but in the long run, the negative consequences will far out weigh the benefits. At least that's what I believe.

Next time I'm in Belize, I would love to go to the BBQ. Wish I could be there every weekend!

Re: cruise ship world - not good #73060
09/06/03 11:25 AM
09/06/03 11:25 AM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 4,268
Bellaire, Tx. and the World
Denny Shane Offline
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Denny Shane  Offline
kmgentry, you hit the nail square on the head with your response above. I agree that Belizeans simply do not want, or need our input nor actions by us "on their behalf"

People can complain, forms groups, send letters to the government all they want... and to no avail unless they are the people directly living with the situation... that means the native Belizeans living in Belize.

A good example is our present situation in Iraq... people all over the world are calling us all kinds of names... especially France and Germany... are we taking their advice? Of course not... this is OUR country and no one in the world can tell us what to do... right or wrong.

Same goes for Belize... Belize is THEIR country and no one in the world can tell them what to do with their own country.

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