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Oracle Charged For Psychic Pretense

Posted By: Marty

Oracle Charged For Psychic Pretense - 09/08/10 02:25 PM

One woman who police say misled the community as to the children's whereabouts has been charged. She is 42 year old Delfina ALVAREZ SELGADO, a Housewife of the Water Supply Area, in Punta Gorda Town. She has been charged for the rarely used offence of "PRETENDS TO TELL FORTUNE."

She pleaded not guilty to the charge and received bail of $1500.00Bcy. She will reappear in Punta Gorda Magistrate Court on October 12, 2010.

Selgado is the one who was consulted by the desperate community and allegedly gave general information which was interpreted to suggest that the children's disappearance was somehow linked to the home and property of Vincent Rose. That home was burnt down on Sunday morning. This footage was taken a short distance from the home shortly before the fire started. It shows an armed mob gathering.

Many of those persons were later detained at the Punta Gorda police station where they were also disarmed. They were released shortly after.

Police have not detained or charged anyone for the apparent arson at the Rose property. The Toledo Alcaldes association has announced that it will be holding a public meeting in Punta Gorda town tomorrow to give their version of what happened on Sunday….

Channel 7


This offence is found at Section 3-(1) (viii) of the Summary Jurisdiction Offences Act, Chapter 98 of the Substantive Laws of Belize, which states

" A person who Pretends or professes to tell fortunes, or uses any

Subtle craft or device by palmistry, obeah or any such

Like superstitious means to deceive and impose upon

Any person whomsoever; "

Posted By: Marty

Re: Oracle Charged For Psychic Pretense - 09/08/10 02:29 PM

An Example of some of whats out there on this subject:

Feed the psychics to the crocodiles.

Psychics are normally the sorts of frauds who will, for a fee, tell you your loved one is in some sort of a heaven, perfectly fine, loves you and all of that swell stuff.

Which James Randi points out is generic and useless.

But some people believe it and every now and then a psychic will make a try for something not so generic and useless, like in this case in Belize.

Two kids go missing, a psychic says they got eaten by the crocs in the local crocodile sanctuary. The mob somehow forgot that psychics are frauds more suited to seperating grieving families from their money than finding missing children.

Boom, no more crocodile sanctuary. The mob killed 17 crocodiles, destroyed the owners house as well as a lab, and the visitors facilities. The kids are still missing by the way.

Nice business making things up and saying you “just know.”

*Thanks PZ Myers

http://blogs.timeslive.co.za/expensive/2010/09/07/throw-the-psychics-to-the-crocodiles/

Posted By: Amanda Syme

Re: Oracle Charged For Psychic Pretense - 09/08/10 03:08 PM

The author doesn't realize that here in Belize psychics/shaman/bush doctors etc work closely within the communities. They tend to be respected and often consulted before people go to medical doctors and also after a visit to an MD.

These folks are not considered charlatans, nor are they considered to only separate people from their money. They provide a service which is sought on a daily basis.

I know many well respected San Pedranos that consult a number of bush doctors, on the island and on the mainland. These are folks that also go to church and to medical school trained doctors. Some have been to college abroad and have been exposed to the 1st world nations.

Don't underestimate the power of witchcraft in Belize. It is alive and well.
Posted By: Marty

Re: Oracle Charged For Psychic Pretense - 09/08/10 03:30 PM

i swear by my bush doc. I trust him completely. I consider my american doctor to be an adjunct to my bush doc. my bush doc also has some western med training.
Posted By: Barnacle

Re: Oracle Charged For Psychic Pretense - 09/08/10 03:34 PM

good grief,,,,
Posted By: collyk

Re: Oracle Charged For Psychic Pretense - 09/08/10 03:45 PM

Supernatural beliefs and superstition whether borne of mainstream organised religion or localised customs have historically been used as excuses for truly awful behaviour, usually waged by one group of people against another, who happen to have different beliefs. From the Inquisition to 9/11, these are all examples of people, who feel driven by their 'belief' system to commit horrific acts on its behalf. One can either blame the religious or spiritual leaders for controlling minds, manipulating and terrorising their believers or you can blame the believers for being gullible or for misinterpreting the 'message'. Either way, in my view, superstition and belief in the supernatural can be very dangerous things particularly when kept in isolation from education and law enforcement.
Posted By: Marty

Re: Oracle Charged For Psychic Pretense - 09/08/10 04:34 PM

Police arrest PG “witchdoctor”

Amandala

A desperate father, deeply concerned about the fate of his two missing children, and angry with the police for their apparently lackadaisical approach to the investigation, fell into the clutches of a local “witchdoctor,” with the result that a million-dollar investment, business and a home, has gone up in flames.

The witchdoctor, a female now being charged by police, allegedly told the missing children’s parents that they were being held on the premises of an American couple, Vince and Cherie Chenot-Rose, who owned a crocodile sanctuary.

The father, Pedro Rash, aided by about a hundred incensed villagers, stormed Vince and Cherie’s business,  American Crocodile Education Sanctuary (ACES), to look for the children, Benjamin Rash, 11, and Onelia Rash, 9, both from San Marcos Village, Toledo.

The children were not found, but ACES and the Roses’ home, all uninsured, were burned, totally destroyed by the flames.

An angry, outraged and disbelieving Vince and Cherie, who were not at home at the time, when they learned of the destruction of their 7-year investment, and home, sent out a press release yesterday, part of which we reproduce:

“In the early morning hours of September 5th, a frenzied mob of Mayan-Belizean villagers set fire to the American Crocodile sanctuary that a Colorado couple spent the last six years creating.

“‘We’ve lost everything,’ said Cherie Chenot-Rose, co-owner and founder of the American Crocodile Education Sanctuary (ACES).

“The mob was apparently riled into frenzy by a Mayan ‘psychic’ who claimed that two children who have been missing for the last week had been fed to the crocodiles at the sanctuary. It is alleged that the same group of villagers are responsible for burning other homes in the past several months in the Toledo District, the southernmost portion of Belize.

Luckily, Cherie and her husband, Vince Rose, were in San Pedro on the island of Ambergris Caye when the mob attacked. At the request of the Belize Forest Department, the team was rescuing three problem crocs and meeting with top Belize tourism officials discussing the prospect of creating an American Crocodile sanctuary on the island.

“Reports are that the mob shot and killed some of the 17 crocs held in captivity at the sanctuary. Also destroyed were the Rose’s two-story home that included a laboratory and nursery for baby crocs. One baby American Crocodile was to be flown to Chicago to the Wildlife Discovery Center in Lake Forest, Ill., USA, for the first ever animal exchange program between Belize and the USA.

“Over $2,500 in vet supplies that were recently donated for a new humane society that Cherie, along with other locals, was working on in Punta Gorda were also lost.

“‘This one wrongful incident has affected and hurt many innocent people and animals,’ added Cherie…”  

Reports to Amandala are that the high emotions started to boil over from early Sunday morning when armed villagers—approximately 100 of them—showed up outside the Punta Gorda Police Station demanding that police go and search the American couple’s home in the Water Hole Area, approximately 11 miles outside Punta Gorda Town. Police didn’t accede to the demands and shortly afterwards, Vincent Rose’s home, along with ACES in the Water Hole Area, was stormed by the villagers at about 10:30 a.m. on Sunday.

The house and buildings were set ablaze by the angry mob, who believed that Rose was responsible for the disappearance of the children 17 days earlier, courtesy of the “witchdoctor,”whom the children’s father had consulted. The villagers descended on ACES and the Roses’ home, and shortly after, everything burnable was set on fire.

A couple of the villagers told Amandala that the police had told them that they could not search the facility because they didn’t have a signed search warrant.

While the police were searching the southern parts of Toledo for the children, the villagers banded together to search on their own, because they felt that the police wasn’t doing a thorough job. The police had not searched the Roses’ premises, which included ACES. 

Amandala understands from a credible source that a top-brass police officer had been warned of the villagers’ intent to gather in front of ACES and conduct their own search, and that the situation could have gotten out of hand if the authorities didn’t go to the location. But by the time the police arrived a few hours later, the Roses’ home and ACES had already gone up in flames.

Yesterday, Monday, the Mayan villagers from San Marcos were still showing support for the family by gathering in front of the Punta Gorda Police Station and picketing the police’s “lack of activity” to conduct proper searches for the children and the dragging of feet to issue a proper search warrant to search ACES.

Police say Tuesday that they have arrested and charged Delfina Alvarez Selgado, 42, a housewife of Water Supply Area of Punta Gorda Town, yesterday for the offense of “pretending to tell fortune.” She pleaded not guilty to the charge and bail of $1,500 was offered. She is to reappear in Punta Gorda Magistrate’s Court on October 12, 2010.

Amandala sources say that Greg Choc, a respected Mayan activist of Toledo, had to step in and arrange legal representation for the people whom the police were thinking about taking into custody.

We also had a chance to hear Pedro Rash, the father of the children, speak about the circumstances of the supposed tie-in between his missing children and the ACES.

Pedro Rash, father of the missing children, said: “I have evidence here, because we went there (ACES) along with the police, and one of my village members found lime (the fruit) on the premises. That’s why we are expecting the police to get into that house or call that person. I believe that the police know where that person [is], so we are expecting the police to bring in this man, talk to him, and open the place so that I am satisfied…”

The lime is of significance, said Rash, because the children were selling a number of things when they went missing, including lime.

Rash also said that the “witchdoctor” told them that the children were on the premises of ACES, but they were “underground,” which conflicts with Rose’s press release that stated that the “witchdoctor” had said that the children had been fed to the crocodiles.

Rash also recounted how the “witchdoctor” planned to find the children; she would divine their location by performing magic on items of clothing belonging to them and have the police accompany her to that exact location.

Pedro Rash added: “She asked me about giving her some clothing for the pair of children; I brought it that same day she asked. She told me she will do the magic work on the clothes; she will inform the BDF and the police and go in that area. When we saw her here this morning, in front of Mr. Mariano [Senior Superintendent Robert Mariano, officer in charge of the Punta Gorda Police Station], I informed the police before I gave over the clothing to her. I wanted the police to take a statement for this, but Corporal Avila did not take any statements, such as …details like what color they [the clothing] are. Corporal Avila told me that he knows the witchdoctor, and I asked if she could help them in locating the children. That’s when they [the police and the witchdoctor] left…” [He did not say where they went.]

We also got a chance to hear Vince Rose, co-owner of ACES, speak about his loss.

Vince Rose said: “We run a crocodile sanctuary, which means we go around with the Belize Police Department getting wild crocodiles that have been fed by humans, out of their backyards or out of their areas, because now they’re dangerous crocodiles, and they are going to kill someone someday. So we are doing the opposite of what everyone else thinks. We are preventing people from being hurt.”

Rose said that he and others have been working with American and Morelet’s crocodiles for 7 years. He says that he and his wife have a spotless record here in Belize and in the US. He was outraged that not only were his life’s work and home destroyed, but especially, where the information came from; it was not from a credible source to merit such an “act of terrorism,” as he described it. He said that he is upset with the Mayan community for what they did, and as a result, he will not sanction another facility being built down in Toledo.

The Mayan community should be very ashamed of themselves,” Rose commented. “They burned the wrong man’s house down and destroyed any future entities for their own Toledo District.”

He said that he and his wife sustained approximately a million dollars in damages because the facility was not insured. He said the facility was built of steel and wood. He said that he and his wife had moved there for life, but now not only did their investment go down the drain but their personal belongings and memories were also destroyed.

Rose said he plans to take legal action against anyone the police finds responsible for the arson. He also wishes that attempted murder and trespassing be added to the list of charges, because he and his wife could have been in the houses when they were burned down.

Both parties felt that the police didn’t support them well enough: the villagers felt that the police didn’t provide them with enough support by taking too long to get the search warrant and open up the place for inspection, and Rose feels that the police didn’t make an appearance quickly enough to stop the mob from burning his place to the ground.

The police in Punta Gorda have remained quiet about the whole matter.

(Special thanks to Wil Maheia and the PGTV crew for helping us with this story.)

(Ed. NOTE: The story made CNN International today, under an article captioned: Belize mob torches Americans’ animal sanctuary but their will survives.)

Posted By: Amanda Syme

Re: Oracle Charged For Psychic Pretense - 09/08/10 05:04 PM

I fully agree with you Collyk. But our belief systems are what make us (mankind) all so culturally diverse. Not all beliefs and superstitions are dangerous. Some are well founded. I think one good practice is to know what the beliefs are wherever you travel so that you don't inadvertently offend.

My Mom is from Borneo - and believe me there are forest people that simply don't live or think the same way I do. And yet Kuala Lumpar is a leading cosmopolitan city. Both are in the same country but completely different cultures. I watched a show about a tribe in Papau, New Guinea - it was amazing. Even now they raid each other's villages and kidnap women and exact revenges after conferring with the Obeah man.

The US prides itself for being progressive, diverse, proud, tolerant and welcoming - and yet there is one Florida preacher that wishes to burn the Quoran and HE is the one who is receiving headline attention.

Go figure. Sometimes we have to work hard to find our niche. A place where we feel safe, welcome, appreciated, respected, loved and a place where our neighbours celebrate our successes and assist us with our causes and beliefs. A place where we can speak our minds without fear of retribution and a place where we can enjoy each others company and celebrate our differences too.

Posted By: collyk

Re: Oracle Charged For Psychic Pretense - 09/08/10 05:33 PM

Amanda, I didn't say that 'all beliefs and superstitions are dangerous'. I said that they are dangerous in the absence of education and law enforcement as has been evidenced in Belize and all over the world. It might seem amazing that a tribe from another country raid each other's villages and kidnap women on the basis of Obeah, but because it is amazing - does it make it OK? People are mutilated, raped, murdered and tortured in the name of belief systems and cultures all over the world and have been throughout history. I don't think that is the sort of cultural diversity that, I personally, would like to celebrate. The preacher in the USA is not unique in his willingness to offend or hurt in the name of his religion, there are many in the USA, Europe and the so - called 'civilised' nations that do the same. Again, that doesn't make it right. Yes it is important to know belief systems wherever you travel and to respect them but that doesn't mean that we can't have certain basic morals as human beings that we should all live by to make sure that society continues to flourish. Oh yeah! They are called laws. Spiritual beliefs cannot be used as an excuse to break the law and always seem to be conveniently ignored when they are not convenient. Two children remain missing and all of the energy that has been spent dealing with the arson and destruction of the Rose's property could have been spent trying to find these children. The spiritualism in this case, did far more harm than good. Knowing about their beliefs would not have protected these children, nor would it have stopped mob hysteria.
Posted By: Amanda Syme

Re: Oracle Charged For Psychic Pretense - 09/08/10 07:00 PM

I understand what you are saying collyk. No, not everything that occurs around us is what I consider to be right or okay. And laws are only as good as the enforcers. In the so called civilized world there are still jails - because despite laws there are always law breakers.

No - not everything that happens in the world is right, not every religion or superstitious belief is right - according to MY belief system. But the world doesn't revolve around me and my beliefs.

There are what I believe to be atrocities occurring on a daily basis everywhere in the world, including in the town of San Pedro. Since we have laws I do my fair share of attempting to uphold and abide by these laws - and I do my part to assist the authorities in upholding the law. But laws are not always right either... but that is a whole other topic.

Just to recap - I didn't say I believe that actions taken which are based on superstitious or religious beliefs are right or OK - I said I understand the motivation of deep convictions that lead to the actions by the believers.
Posted By: Marty

Re: Oracle Charged For Psychic Pretense - 09/08/10 07:23 PM

the Maya world and the Modern Global world are two separate entities. they have separate realities. I have spent much time in the villages in this area, and in san marcos specifically. The Maya are beautiful people. They do not however, see things the way we do. And why should they?

we cannot judge them by our realities. let some time go by and some healing occur. It's a miserable situation for a whole lot of folks.
Posted By: collyk

Re: Oracle Charged For Psychic Pretense - 09/08/10 07:38 PM

Absolutely Marty. They shouldn't have to see things any way but their own and nor should anyone else. I don't judge people's beliefs, but I certainly will judge their actions if they threaten my life or my home. Using cultural beliefs as an excuse for atrocities just doesn't jive with me and I have to say only seems to be used to justify outrageous behaviour when the someone is fond of that particular culture. When people don't like a particular culture, they aren't particularly appealing or popular at that time in history than there is very little of this sort of understanding. If someone burnt down my home, destroyed my life's work, threatened my life and killed animals I had cared for and nurtured, I'm afraid I wouldn't be thinking 'let some time go and let some healing occur'. It is very easy to say that when it wasn't your home, your life and your family.
Posted By: Marty

Re: Oracle Charged For Psychic Pretense - 09/08/10 07:59 PM

i am trying to understand, not judge. obviously this was a poor form of expression by the villagers. I shall never condone violence. this was a horrible sad thing to occur.

but we are not from a Mayan village, and to condemn them as savages non humans etc. as the media and many are doing to me is also sad. the world is reading about the brutal savages thru CNN ad nauseum. i know the villagers are not savages. they are kind wonderful folks. something went horribly wrong.
Posted By: collyk

Re: Oracle Charged For Psychic Pretense - 09/08/10 08:10 PM

So Marty, can I ask you this hypothetical question. Your home has been destroyed, your life's work, animals you've cared for chopped and burned, your life has been threatened as has your family's, you can never return to your home. After no sleep, crying solidly, being terrified, in complete distress, what words would you have managed to conjure up to describe the people who did this to you. I don't agree with the use of the word savages, although the behaviour certainly falls within the definition of savage behaviour, but I have had the benefit of media/PR training. Before that, I was eaten alive by the press as spokesperson for the organisation I worked for at the time. Things I said were twisted and taken out of context. Fortunately, I was never in the position to have to speak to the press when I was in a state of utter despair, grief and fear or I have no idea what I might or might not have said in the heat of the moment. Quite honestly, whatever Vince & Cherie do or say, does not mean that they deserved to be victims of this hideous crime. The people who did this are the ones responsible for this bad publicity. I'm sure many of the villagers appear to be kind and wonderful to you, but as you have so clearly said - you have no way of knowing whether they are kind and wonderful. You can only make your judgements based on your own cultural preconceptions. There is good and bad in every community and culture. People are people. The Maya may be an ancient culture but they are still people. 'Attractive' cultures are much more likely to gain sympathy and 'understanding' when they are involved in terrible situations where patronising westerners can offer up their culture as an excuse.
Posted By: Marty

Re: Oracle Charged For Psychic Pretense - 09/08/10 08:30 PM

no matter what the Rose's said, they did not deserve this, obviously. I think i have made that clear. please quit throwing it at me that i condone this crap.

also, i make my judgments not on "cultural preconceptions", but by having breakfast, lunch, and dinner with the indians for weeks on end. working with them. sweating with them. arguing with them. laughing with them. getting frustrated with them. really enjoyed it.

not many white boys have done that. they told me so. like none they said actually. at that time...
Posted By: Amanda Syme

Re: Oracle Charged For Psychic Pretense - 09/08/10 08:41 PM

Yet again a topic is become personal between the people that are making posts.

We all have opinions.

I too have had wonderful experiences with the Maya from that area. After Hurricane Iris, when their entire villages were destroyed, live stock and fields dead and destroyed - and with a small core group of people from San Pedro and abroad - villages were rebuilt and very quickly normal life was restored. The villagers did not ask for money and after a little helping hand with supplies that could not be gathered from the jungle they returned to their simple way of life.

Would I choose to build a home there and live there? No! Why? Because the culture and belief system is so different from my own. Because what I cherish and hold dear are not the same things that the rural villagers consider valuable or irreplaceable.

Clashing cultures often result in sad and tragic manners.


IF the villagers torched the Rose's home then I would guess that they were expressing a form of anger, frustration,fear and a sense of helplessness in a manner that was misguided.

The result has left the Rose's homeless and the work they have put into a project for 6 years is gone.

I can understand that the Roses are also feeling a sense of anger, frustration, fear and helplessness. They have vented these feelings via the international media.

The village has lost 2 children. The Roses have lost their adopted home. It is sad for all.

NOBODY is the winner in this scenario.

It seems that the seer that led the villagers to believe that the Roses had something to do with the disappearance of 2 kids is being charged with her crime.

If a villager or 2 is charged with arson, convicted, and sentenced to jail time perhaps that will help the Roses feel vindicated.

I can't see the village community ever being able to repay the $1.2 million dollars of losses the Roses have made claim to.

I find it difficult to believe that they would have such valuable belongings that were not insured. But again, insurance is another of those topics that some many have to agree to disagree on.



Posted By: collyk

Re: Oracle Charged For Psychic Pretense - 09/08/10 08:43 PM

Marty, while I respect the fact that you worked with the Maya people (and just going on the whole subject of perceptions - where I come from calling them Indians would be considered racist - so go figure) that doesn't mean you know them better than anyone else. No one can understand another's culture until after many, many years of living it - and even then, they'll never totally understand it. The things you wrote originally sounded apologetic and justifications for what has happened and as such I responded. I can never see culture as an excuse for the unacceptable. I've been through this issue with female circumcision, the refusal to allow children to receive blood transfusions, the unwillingness to teach safe sex and so many other practices which are life threatening but excused on the basis of culture. I don't think you condone what has been done. I do feel that you seemed to me to be making some excuses for it because you felt defensive of a culture you are fond of.
Posted By: Marty

Re: Oracle Charged For Psychic Pretense - 09/08/10 08:49 PM

obviously i don't totally understand their culture. or i would understand why they did this.

nor to i pretend to know them better than anyone. i just hung out for awhile.

//ambergriscaye.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/451408/1.html
Posted By: Amanda Syme

Re: Oracle Charged For Psychic Pretense - 09/08/10 08:53 PM

Here in Belize it is acceptable to refer to the Maya as Indians. But Ketchi is the more common reference.
Posted By: collyk

Re: Oracle Charged For Psychic Pretense - 09/08/10 09:05 PM

Amanda I know that people refer to Maya people as Indians commonly in Belize. That is why I said 'where I come from'. They also refer to Chinese people as 'Chiney' and Indian people (as from the country of India) as 'Coolies'. I'm afraid you are wrong that Ketchi is a common reference to the Maya people. Some Maya people are Kekchi others are Mopan, Yucatec, Lacandon, Quiche and scores of others. There are many groups of Maya people. They have different languages, different dress, customs and many different beliefs. There was never a unified 'Maya' nation and so they don't all go by one tribal identity. In Belize we have mainly Mopan, Kekchi and Yucatec Maya people. It is a bit like calling a Scottish person English.
Posted By: Amanda Syme

Re: Oracle Charged For Psychic Pretense - 09/08/10 09:12 PM

Thanks Collyk - I understand what you are saying but commonly all Maya are referred to as Ketchi regardless of exactly what dialect they speak. Gringos is the common reference to white people - even if they are 3rd generation Belizean born and raised.
Posted By: Amanda Syme

Re: Oracle Charged For Psychic Pretense - 09/08/10 09:14 PM

oh and just for kicks - I am a gringa chiney born in Germany and raised in Belize with a Malay mother, Welsh father, Scottish husband and an English sister....
Posted By: Marty

Re: Oracle Charged For Psychic Pretense - 09/08/10 09:15 PM

and i thought i was weird being a cuban quaker. :>
Posted By: collyk

Re: Oracle Charged For Psychic Pretense - 09/08/10 09:16 PM

Amanda, sorry but I have not heard Maya people referred to anything but Indians or by their groups identity. If they happen to be Kekchi then they are referred to or refer to themselves as such. I've never heard Kekchi used as a generic term for all Maya people. When I talk to Maya people they identify which group they are from.
Posted By: JZB

Re: Oracle Charged For Psychic Pretense - 09/08/10 09:22 PM

If the mayan people want to rely on their oracles/witchdoctors for advice, that is perfectly fine. What they DID with the advice in this case is where the problem lies. As far as I know, the fortune teller didn't say "Go burn down their house".

I don't think burning up peoples homes out of anger is a 'cultural' thing.
Posted By: Marty

Re: Oracle Charged For Psychic Pretense - 09/08/10 10:17 PM

//ambergriscaye.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/387350/Re_American_Crocodile_Educatio.html#Post387350
Posted By: Marty

Re: Oracle Charged For Psychic Pretense - 09/09/10 02:47 PM

Police Make An Un-Fortunate Error

Last night we told you about 42 year old Delfina ALVAREZ SELGADO, the so called with doctor charged for "PRETENDS TO TELL FORTUNE."

That name has appeared in every media outlet and indeed it was provided with picture from the police. But it has drawn the outrage of the Selgado family who say she is Delfina Alvarez, and there's no Selgado after that.

Seems she had a common law relationship with a male named Selgado but that is over, and the family says she never legally carried the name and certainly does not do so now.

Channel 7

Posted By: Amanda Syme

Re: Oracle Charged For Psychic Pretense - 09/09/10 03:50 PM

Thanks Collyk - I will just call them all indians from now on just to be safe.
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