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Posted By: munichchick Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/23/02 07:32 PM
Just in case anyone would like to take a look at how Long Caye is coming along with eco friendly development. [Linked Image] www.longcayebelize.com
Posted By: SEAWINGS Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/24/02 10:54 PM
Thanks.Looks like a lot of progress has made.I have been following the development for a couple of years.But sure is a long ways out there.
The construction company now on the island will speed things up.
Enjoy!!!!!
Posted By: susangg Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/25/02 01:10 AM
Looks very nice. The "CocoPlum" design looks quite a bit like what my husband designed for our little house in Panama (1 bedroom house with wrap around deck.)
I wonder why wind power is not in the plan. I see that you will be using solar. It looks like you are planning for each owner to do his own thing, power wise, so maybe that's why you aren't using wind. The effective wind turbines are very big and therefore expensive; maybe they need to be used on a shared basis to be cost effective?
Are you going to be using composting toilets?
It does look like quite a bit of building for such a small place...but since it will be many years before all those lots get sold, let alone built on, it probably will never become an issue. Obviously, a lot of planning is being done.
Posted By: Enigma Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/25/02 04:21 PM
According to the website the island is 2 1/4 miles long and 3/4 miles wide, some of which I see is not parceled off.

To get a better picture of size, in feet that would be 11,880 ft. long by 3,960 ft. wide.

According to Pleasure Island via email, there are approximately 700 parcels between residential and commercial combined.

Maybe it's me but that seems like a lot of folks jammed into a small space, not to mention the demand on the land itself....eco-village or not.

The website mentions all the wonderful birds that nest on this island and the fact that it's a crucial resting stop.
I'm curious if these birds will still want to stop for a visit once the island is full of humans?

Although there does seem to be a lot of planning that has gone into this project, even the best laid plans can go awry. I think I have mixed feelings about developing this island. Composting toilets are fine but I'd like to know what will happen to all the waste water? Typically, waste water is dumped into what they call here "a soak away". How many soak aways will there be?
Will there be any wells on the island or will everyone depend solely on rain catchment? If so, what is to prevent the soak aways from leaching into the ground water?

I agree on the wind power. Should be able to provide quite a large percentage from that setup. It is expensive to set up and must be maintained diligently in the salt air environment, but if people chipped in together and shared the costs, maybe it's worth looking into.

There is a company called jademountain.com that specializes in sustainable energy products. Everything from household appliances to solar toys. Problem is, I can't imagine the cost of buying, shipping and setting up these items in such a remote location.

Sometimes I think we should leave nature alone.

Will watch as progress continues.

[This message has been edited by Enigma (edited 07-25-2002).]
Posted By: susangg Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/27/02 06:29 PM
I see that there are plans for a marina. Is it to be a "full service" marina? Meaning, one where cruising sailors can dock for a day, a week, a month or....??? and have access to all normal marina services (pump out, water, electricity, showers, provisioning, security, etc.)?
Currently there is nothing like that in Belize and that may account for the relatively small number of cruising sailors who come here, despite the fact that the sailing as about as good as it gets anywhere in the world, for at least half the year.
(And it needs to be reasonably priced as well...)
Posted By: trina Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/28/02 11:32 PM
It seems like a lot of good planning has gone into this BUT. In my experience, impact by humans: waste-water, diesel fuel, noise (scares away birds), stepping on or hitting coral (happens most of time by accident) has an impact, regardless of what steps have been taken to mitigate. What's the maximum or "cap" of the population on this island? I guess the bottom line is, I like to keep think of some spots as staying remote, untouched (a relative term, yes) and pristine.
Posted By: Enigma Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/29/02 04:56 AM
I'm still hoping Munichchick or Scubaldy can answer those questions. I see from this board both of them have purchased there and I'm sure these were questions they asked themselves when they bought.

It's not the developement I have a problem with....it's looks wonderful. It's the size and volume of people I think i have a problem with.

Was there an environmental impact study done before this project began? I don't remember hearing anything about it.

Where is Paradise Island based at? (the company that is)

Thanks
Posted By: munichchick Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/29/02 06:32 PM
Here are some answeres to your questions. 80% of the Island will be preserved. You can only build 20% on your lot which will allow space and nature between buildings. Not everyone that purchased a lot is planing on building on the land. An Environmental Impact Assesment was made and filed with the Government. The developer has donated (or at least offered) land to the Belize Audubon Society.I think if an Island get's developed this is got to be the best way to do it. We can all be happy not some big resort group came in and purchased the Island to build a huge Mega Resort on it. Just look at the Riviera Maya and see what is happening there. Belize could be looked at next by these large Resort Groups once they run out of land there. The good thing is that the people that own the Island really care about saving the Environment and creating a community where humans exist in peace with nature. This is a very hard thing to find in this world. Pleasure Island Inc. is located in Florida. We are very happy to be part of such a wonderful Development. So far things are developing faster than we thought it would and we are looking forward on spending more time on Long Caye in the future. And "No I don't work for them". Make your own decission if you want to buy land there. So far we are glad we did!!!!
Posted By: munichchick Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/29/02 06:44 PM
Only decomposting toilets are allowed on the Island and I sure hope people will not step on the Coral. We have snorkeled for years and I am proud to say we never stepped on or touched coral! Long Caye does not look like it will be over developed to us. If you want to see over developed check out what is happening along the Riviera Maya between Puerto Morelos and Tulum and California besides many other parts of America!!!! In order to stop developement we would need to stop having Children and adding to the worlds over population. Otherwise I can not see how development will ever stop because humans will want that development and developers will want $$$! It is only a matter of time until it reaches more remote parts like Belize and at least the Long Caye Preserve will try to preserve habitats for nature and animals. Unlike some other places that will get developed over the years. We have watched development over the last 10 years along the Mexican Caribbean and know what could be coming to Belize. Unfortunately, it is all about money and the Belize government already showed with the Dam project that it is also very interested in money versus preserving nature!!!!
Posted By: trina Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/29/02 07:36 PM
Munichick, thanks for the info. Question: what is "Riviera Maya"? I am not familiar with that. Also, I agree about Mexican coast, along with most places in US regarding development. That exactly makes my point, that we should really preserve what is left. And yes, I am glad that it appears that your group is saavy and cares about the environment. I am aware of the dam project and am confused about the whole thing.
Posted By: munichchick Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/29/02 10:15 PM
The Riviera Maya is what the tourism industry calles the Coastline from South of Cancun to Tulum. They used to call it the Cancun/Tulum Corridor but that didn't sound so nice. Thats probably why they changed it to the above name about 4 years ago. The new area Fonatura (Mexican Tourism Board that also developed Cancun/Ixtapa/Huatulco etc.) picked for major development is Costa Maya is very close to Ambergris Caye. It is the area from Xcalac to Majahual and all the way down that coast. There is already a cruise ship dock there now that received lots of business and a new airstrip. Xcalac is where the Mayan Chanel separates Mexico from Ambergris Caye. We have been following all this development very closly and it is sad.
Posted By: ScubaLdy Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/29/02 11:19 PM
MuniChic: Hi neighbor, I sure do look forward to meeting you.
Yes, I have purchased two residential lots on Long Caye. I bought into "an idea" more than a plot of ground. I do have a few concerns, but I am addressing them. Overall, I'm very impressed with the project. I believe there are about 90 lots in the Loggerhead Reserve section and they are all sold. They are each the size of a city lot; my smallest one being 42 x 90' and the larger one 48 x 90'.

Some of the other lots are destined to be build above the water in areas designated "Lagoon" I'm not sure what the difference is between a lagoon and a swamp, but hey -- I'm not buying there.

The deepwater channel and marina are items that were added after I bought in. I have mixed feelings about this. The developers say it will be a safe harbor for the live-aboard boats during a storm the enviromentalists say the dreadging to create it will destroy the wall.
I'm trying to stay dialed into this controversy but have heard nothing lately.

I will have the developers build a small cabana on the smaller of my two lots as soon as the dive resort is close to finished. I spent time with Bill Toonen who will build the Blue Hole Dive Resort and we are on the same page - keep the place pristine.
There were people who were chasing around thinking they were getting "fancy resort type" of property for a song and got rather rude when they learned how isolated and restricted it actually is. The developers even gave a guy back all of his deposit because he wanted to put up some tacky stuff and got irate when told he could not.
Being and advid underwater photographer I want to protect what is there. However, I would also like to share this with other u/w photographers. Belize has gotten a bad rap lately about "there's nothing worth seeing".
About "walking on the coral." I've asked that a certain section be ropped off for swiming. I also believe that a LARGE educational campaign needs to be launched to teach EVERYONE about respect for the reef.

I want to find out how to go about getting an area declared as a marine preserve. I will start a new topic named that for input.
I have a lot of work to do and will accept all the help I can get.

Long Caye will not be a place for everyone, but it will be a very special place for a group of very special people.

Thanks for asking

Harriette
Posted By: trina Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/29/02 11:21 PM
I know where the Mayan channel is, but is the area you're talking about in Mexico or Belize? On the mainland? What is planned? I didn't notice anything up there this past June, but from what you said something might be cooking?
Regarding construction density, Harriette says one of her lots is 40 x 92. That's 3680 sq. ft or roughly 1/12th of an acre. Someone else said you can only build on 20% of a lot. So the max size of a one-story house on this lot is 756 sq. ft? Is that correct?

--Lan Sluder
Posted By: ScubaLdy Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/30/02 07:39 PM
Lan - You are absolutely right. However, the 20% is for enclosed space. Verandahs, stairs, cisterns, recycle area, etc. can cover another designated percentage. When I ran the numbers I saw that only the Seagrape would fit. I've asked for a few modifications and that's why I call it a cabana. It would not be intended to live in for long periods of time - vacations would be perfect. I want a galley type kitchen and the area they call "living room" would be the bedroom/lounge. I asked to have the verandahs a little larger and screened in. The living/dining area would be covered, but open air.
If things go well out there and I want to spend longer periods of time I would then build the Cocoplum on my larger lot and rent out the cabana; mostly to friends at a very reasonable rate. I am very active in the underwater photo community and have a long list of people who want to come and dive with me.
Loggerhead Reserve has about 90 lots, which will probably house about 180 people. Remember, some of these are going to be people running commercial enterprises on the island and some, like me, are going to be there part time. Obviously it is not going to be a place to "raise kids." Speaking of which, no domestic animals will be allowed.
Requirement #1 - as sense of humor.
Harriette
Posted By: munichchick Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/30/02 08:15 PM
Well, we do have a big issue with the no domestic animal on the Island policy. Before we purchased our lot in July of 2000 we asked exactly this question because we have 2 small Italian Greyhounds that will be traveling with us if we spend more time on the Island than 3 weeks. The answer was that we are allowed to bring our dogs as long as they are leashed at all times. Our dogs are like our children and are never allowed off leash unless it is a fenced in area even here in CA because Greyhounds are not street smart. We where reading through the Eco Guidelines several times before we put down our money. Now almost 2 years later they change the policy and all sudden our dogs would not be welcome anymore. Our dogs sleep inside in our bed and do not bark at night and only for a reason during the day. Not yappers! I called the Developer and we will see what happens but this new rule is definately a big problem for us. Our dogs would not be allowed to prey for birds or disturb anyone. For matter of fact they use a box much like cats for their business. Therefore, we will be putting their waste down the decomposting toilet. Now we do understand that many dog owners are not responsible (we see it on the trails around here) but we are not willing to have our very good behaved dogs ruled out just because someone thought about coming up with a new rule since we purchased and we where told otherwise first. If it comes down to it we will have to sell our lot because if we are not allowed to bring the dogs on a longer Island stay we can not stay there any longer than 3 weeks and than it is not worse while it for us to build anything on our lot. Sorry for venting but we sure hope this will get worked out. Nothing is perfect! We know that! We only can hope for the best. Right now we are on the wait and see approach.
Posted By: trina Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/30/02 08:16 PM
Question Harriette: is the zoning and restrictions the same for commercial properties? Someone it escaped me, from yours and other descriptoins, that there would be commercial properties. Anyway, what are the height and other restrcitions for commercial propreties? What kinds of enterprises do you enivision there? Somehow (call me unimaginative), it's hard for me to picture a "pristine" island with commercial venues. Hmmmmm?
Posted By: munichchick Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/30/02 08:21 PM
Trina! The area I am talking about is in Mexico but very close to the border of Belize. They are building a 4 lane Highway from Highway 307 from Limones to Majahual. And there is construction going on in Belize to build a large Casino, Mall, Resort at the 7 mile Lagoon called Galleria Maya. I think down the line (maybe 10-15 years) there is a good chance that big resort groups will want to invest a lot of $$$ in Belize and I doubt the Belize government will turn them down considering how they handle things right now.
We will see over the years. Let's hope it will never happen.
Posted By: CMNate Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/30/02 08:44 PM
Trina,
I have been doing research on the Costa Maya for about a month now and have gathered a lot of information on the internet. I will by flying down to San Pedro next week (via Cancun) and will be gathering even more information as I am interested in a possible investment in that area (although my primary interest is Belize). The developement is coming and I'm sure it will bring more people to Belize (especially Ambergris Caye). Who knows how long all of this will take, but I for one am doing my homework now (it hasn't been easy trying to get info on the area).
Since this is not really related to Belize, email me and I can pass along some websites that I found and inform you of anything that I learned on my trip.

Nate
[email protected]


[This message has been edited by CMNate (edited 07-30-2002).]
Posted By: munichchick Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/30/02 08:48 PM
I wanted to add that I was reading that Lufthansa will be taking over the Belize City Internationa Airport. They sure will make the airport very save and nice but I would think that this will open doors for European Developers and make Germans feel very comfortable traveling to Belize. The developers that are building the largest resorts in Mexico, Dom. Repuplic and Cuba are Spanish, Italian and German. They do build very nice resorts but they are also very big and not eco friendly at all. They are using deep injection systems for human waste and this is poluting many of the Cenotes (sinkholes) and eventually will ruin much more than that over the years because it all ends up in the ocean. And I know my fellow Europeans will just love Belize when they discover it. And this will happen!!! My fingers are crossed that it will be more eco friendly and smaller resorts than in the Mexican Caribbean. Islands will be purchased for luxury resorts as in many other areas in the world because the wealthy like remotness and don't think of that as a negative and not all of them will be as environmentally friendly as Long Caye Preserve. If you think all these small remote Islands will stay pristine I think you might be wrong unless the government steps in and protects some of them. I know what I am saying does not seem true right now but I just have this bad feeling that it will happen because I have seen it happen in other places. We have traveled a lot and seen a lot over the years.
Posted By: bywarren Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/30/02 08:51 PM
Some of you sure can be subtle the way you question the obvious. The only thing ECO about this is Everything Completely Overdeveloped. It is the height of hypocracy and an insult to common intellegence to try and convince anyone that puting 700 lots on a 2 and 1/2 by 3/4 mile island is anything other. I can't believe people buy into this hype. It would be refreshing sometime to have someone just try and sell it as it is. "Hey, I am developing this island to make as much money as I can. Why don't you buy here and be the one doing the polluting, because if it isn't you, it will be someone else". As far as an environmental impact study goes, Belize's definition of that is "an envelope with a couple hundred thousand in it given to the right politician". I am not one to wish ill fate on anyone, but it would be in the best interest of Belize's environment if this project does not make it. Unfortunatly, sooner or later, there will be someone with enough money and enough people willing to buy into it to make a success of this type of over-development.
Posted By: munichchick Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/30/02 09:03 PM
CMNate! We have been traveling to the Yucatan Coast 12 times over the last 10 years. We went down to Xcalac and stayed at the Costa de Cocos dive resort 5-6 years ago. We where looking a little into land and where offered a beautiful beach front lot for $10,000. I think it was a couple acres. We just did not have the money back than and where afraid to invest in Mexico. Now we wish we purchased the lot. We know people that purchased 2 lots along the Costa Maya and if you like I can give you the e-mail adress as they are very nice and willing to share their experience. If it would be less expensive we would love to buy a condo or small house in the Akumal area because we love it there but are afraid that within the next 10-15 years the area will not be so desirable to us anymore do to over development, over population and environmental destruction. This is what had made us wanting to explore Belize and we are glad to have found Belize. This is why we purchased the lot on Long Caye after we visited the Island in September 2000. Of course we did not know than how it would develope after all but we where willing to risk it and we think it will turn out a good investment. We loved the Eco Preserve plans! We did not want to miss the boat again and are hoping for a little Island of Eden when there is not much of that left in the world. We are not wealthy and we are not old but hope to semi retire in about 10-15 years. We know we will not want to live in the US full time anymore (to crowded and stressing) and also not full time in Europe but also would not want to live full time in Belize or Mexico. The ideal will be 4 month Belize (or Akumal depending on how things turn out there) some time in Europe and the rest back here in California where we will still work. I know we will do it somehow.
Posted By: munichchick Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/30/02 09:46 PM
I don't think anyone is planing on poluting Long Caye. Why else do you think there are strict eco guidelines and buyers sign off on following them? There are many like minded people purchasing there. Of course a developer wants to make money but at least they will put money back into making the Island an eco friendly neighborhood. Please look around other Islands (Roatan for example) and see what happens to the human waste there. The sh... goes untreated into the ocean and I am still not sure what they do with it on AC or other parts of Belize. I have seen outhouses hanging right over the ocean on little tiny Islands in Belize. Does anyone know? Would you rather have that happening to Long Caye? If anyone believes all these Islands will stay undeveloped especially next to wonderful dive sites dream on. They where not made Preserves like Halfmoon Caye by the government therefor they are not protected from other people developing them. Why do you think that is? Because the government would like to make some money!!! Much, much worse could happen to Long Caye than the Long Caye Preserve. Eco developments can work look at St. John's Maho Bay Camp. Maybe Bywaren lives in a less developed area of this planet. In that case he is very lucky! But please look around newer development in the US alone and many other places on this planet. Leaving 80% of the island undeveloped does not sound terrible to us. For some of us it was also a cost factor. Maybe you can afford much more expensive land. We can't but we where able to afford a lot on Long Caye and if we do build there we will make sure we are not poluting anything. It can be done if you care about the environment!!!! And we care a lot! We have gotten a lot of negativity in regards to Long Caye. We will all see with time what will happen. Maybe people could be a little more optimistic and believe that there are some people that actually would like to live in peace with nature. It will not be another Cancun or even San Pedro! And if it does turn out bad I will crie about it with you. It would have happend with us owning land there and without us. It always would have happend. But we do have a right to at least try to make this Preserve work out don't you think? We have nothing but good in mind. Why am I even spending my energy and caring what others think posting anything here? Maybe this should be my last post and just read from now on.
Posted By: susangg Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/30/02 11:59 PM
Can't imagine why anyone would want to live in a place where someone can tell you how to live your personal life (as in "no pets")?? Everyone to their own taste, I guess. As for me, FREEDOM has to be at the top of the list.
There is still plenty of levittown-free island land available in Panama. Yeah, the developers are converging there too, but there's still lots of places you can buy and surround your self with quiet and live in freedom without spending a gazillion dollars.
We bought 27 1/2 acres of rainforest land with 1800 ft of waterfront for $135K. Not much "beach" (most of it is on a bluff) but there's a reef 150 feet out....about what we'd pay for a single lot on the north end of AC. No utilities, its all BYO (Build Your Own...) We will be able to grow most of our own food (there's already coconut, avocado and all kinds of fruit trees that I can't identify growing wild. If we want company, town is a 15 minute boat ride away. No roads. No cars. No CCR's....
Posted By: CMNate Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/31/02 12:04 AM
Munichchick,
Yes, please do forward the email address of your friends that have the property in Mexico. The company that I have been dealing with is going to have information for me at their office in Playa del Carmen (maps and things). Unfortunately, I won't have a lot of time for research in Mexico this trip, but I will be returning in Nov.
I too am looking for a little beach property that I can live on for 4-6 months during the year (looking ahead 10-15 years).
Thanks for your help.

Nate
Posted By: munichchick Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/31/02 12:18 AM
Susang! Your property in Panama sounds wonderful. Yeah, the no Pet thing will have to change otherwise we will be forced to sell the land because we will not let them tell us to leave our fury baby's in a Kennel just because they say so. No way!!! All other rules and regulations are fine by us and will help make the neighborhood nicer.
Posted By: munichchick Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/31/02 12:29 AM
Nate! Please give me your e-mail address since I do not want to post my friends e-mail address here. I am sure you will find a nice piece of land along the Costa Maya. The beaches there are nicer than in Belize but be careful and stay away from Ejido land. Make sure you do a good title search.
There has been a land dispute in the Tulum area and that is Ejido land. Very tricky to find out who actually holds the true title on that kind of land. I am sure you are aware of the Ejido land problems.
Posted By: susangg Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/31/02 02:10 AM
I put a couple of pix of our land on a personal album at: http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4291552863&p=4252467732&idx=1

As a bonus, there are pictures of some of our cats (including our little Jazzy Cat who has now left us, the photo is a couple of years old) and Tigra, who we are adopting and bringing home to California from North Carolina.
ALSO: I got a couple of pix of the Paradise Villas silver tabby mamacat, she is gorgeous and needs to be tamed and adopted not to mention FIXED if someone can catch her. She is beautiful.
Posted By: CMNate Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/31/02 02:38 AM
Munichchick,
I'm looking at the area south of the biosphere reserve. I'll need to find out the lay of the land before I get real serious. Things are already getting pricy, but I think I still have time. First, I have to see how I like Belize, since that is really my primary focus. My concern is that prices there might get out of my range (if they already haven't).

[email protected]
Posted By: ScubaLdy Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/31/02 07:52 AM
AH - FREEDOMThat's a nice word. So is community. As is the phrase "To each his own." ByWarren, I don't think you would like to live on any small island. I wonder, are you one of those woodsmen who have acres and acres of land and you can't see your next neighbor? Well, STAY THERE! You are a very negative person and I think you take delight in pissing people off.
MuniChick - I'm so sorry to hear about you're attachment to your dogs. Well, that doesn't sound right, but you know what I mean? I think we could spend some nice time sitting on the verandah, just sitting.
For me, I've had a few dogs I've really loved but I mostly don't like dogs and I certainly don't like a lot of people's attitude about their dogs. My neighborhood is full of dogs that bark day and night. One little guy behind me cries all night. The owners pretend not to be home when I go up the hill to talk to them. I feel sorry for the dog. We do have leash laws here and most people abide by them. However, no one I've seen walking their dogs picks up after them. Enough said?
As I've said before, thank goodness we don't all want to be in the same place at the same time. I want to live a quiet life with people who love the things I love. I call that community.
Some questions were asked about the commercial lots. Plans are posted for a welcome Pavilion, environmental and Info Center and Observation Tower. Looks like a pretty big bar and lounge area. here will be two fairly small dive resorts and one bed and breakfast. These are right on the beach on either side of the dock. A couple plan to open a place they have named "Caye Mart," another couple talked about opening a camping equipment rental place. There was talk about an eating place called "Fresh Catch" (I sure don't want to cook all of my own meals.) There will be a hyperbolic chamber and 24/7 medical care. But I think most people are a little like me, want to dive and fish, sit and talk, listen to the wildlife (not like at Fido's - sorry Barefoot) and pickup after ourselves. There will be no cars - thank you!!
I am not looking at this as an investment, but as a way of life.
Warren - have you ever read "The Desiderata?" you are a loud and obnoxious person. You finally got to me.
BTW - there is a mosquito abatement program already underway. I wonder what made me think of that.
MuniC -- I sure hope this works out for you. How old are your dogs?
Harriette
Posted By: bywarren Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/31/02 01:18 PM
Scubaldy: I do like living on a small island. I have always been consistant in my views that Belize is allowing overdevelopment. I have expressed my oposition to this on many other posts, ie. the harmful dredging, the attempt to build "mega hotels" on AC and dredge a channel thru the island, etc. It is my view that the ecosystem in Belize, especially the marine ecosystem, is being pushed beyond reasonable limits. I am especilly concerned when the development occurs on or near the reef, as in the Avalon example on AC, and on any of the three atols that I consider to be, along with the barrier reef, one on Belize's most important treasures. And, when some of you try and convince me that it is being done in the name of ecology and in doing so you are doing your part to help protect it, I disagree. I think it is being done for greed and money and without adaquate protection for the environment. You have a long way to go to convince me that this size of development and the altering of the land and the proposed dredging that goes with it is not doing more harm than good. So you along with your neighbor and anyone else who disagrees with me are certainly free to express your views here and call me any names you wish. Although, I think both your views and your attacks on me and my views are hypocritcal.
Posted By: trina Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/31/02 03:56 PM
Why can't we all just agree to disagree? I thought this board was for discussion, not for name calling?
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/31/02 04:17 PM
scubaldy there is no way you can put 700 lots on a island the size of long caye and not kill every thing you say you have come to save,,NO WAY!1,The first storm(not even a big even)will wash all your sewer into the ocean.2,You people clearing your lots,will make silt,that kills coral,let alone wash away the island(what will hold it together?)3,boats??you say you are building places for morrings and diveing?are they built yet?4,hotels??how in the world will a hotel support it self way out there?they will need all the things hotels need for guest,frig,ice,ac?,washing machine,where is all the power coming from?dont say solor,it would cost you way to much to just bring it to Belize let alone get it to the island and set it up,are they going to have supply boats coming and going?You even have a clue how much oil a boat puts into the water?EVEN A GOOD ONE?5,These are just 5 reasons i could go on and on......But i have one big question for all you owners of long caye(there web page says they have over 400 lots sold?yet i go to your yahoo club and see on this board there only 2 of you talking about this?where are all the people?And do any of you even know who owns the island?From what you have told me none of you have even done a title search(this cant be true???)BUT THE BIG REASON LONG CAYE WILL NAVER MAKE IT ISSSSSSSSS....THE WEATHER!YOU WILL ALL GET WASHED AWAY WHEN THE FIRST BIG STORM COMES!
Posted By: munichchick Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/31/02 04:53 PM
Susan! Your kitties are so cute and you guys are so adorable in the cat family picture. How did you get them all to pose? We also have a cat. Her name is Coco Loco and she is a blue point Siamese. She is 8 years old and by the time we will be able to spend more than 3 weeks in Belize she will probably have crossed the rainbow bridge considering our other Siamese died last June only 8 years old and our Balinese died with 7 both had kidney failure. Sniff! Our dogs are 4 (Luigi) and 1 (Giovanni) and we sure hope that they will be still with us in 10 years.
Your land in Panama is very, very beautiful!
Harriette! We are looking forward to meeting you and sipping cocktails on your porch in Long Caye in the future. In our neighborhood people do pick up after their dogs, walk them on leashes and take them inside at night so they don't bark. I guess we are lucky. But we have been hiking on our local mountain trails and there is a leash law and people just let their dogs run loose, chaise birds and squirls and poop on the trail. This of course makes others hate dogs or dog owners and I can understand this. We are sure not like that and this is why we do not want to get penalized for other irresponsible pet owners. We either can take our dogs to Long Caye for longer stays or we have to sell and that would be sad considering how strongly we feel about Long Caye and would like to be part of the Preserve Community. Oh well! We will see what happens. And Bywarren! By no means I do not want to call you names and you do have a right to state how you feel. But don't call us Hypocritical! We have been called stupid for buying land on a Mosquito infested swamp island and now all sudden people care that it get's developed. Interesting! Don't you spend a lot of time in Belize? Well, we have the same right.
I am also against dredging and actually did not know that this was planed for Long Caye.
It seems to me like some Expat people that happen to be older than us and have been lucky enough to have found Belize 20 years before us would like us to not have found Belize and this is where so much negativity comes from. Sorry! But we love it just as much as you and we will be returning as much as possible and we do support any efforts to protecting the environment. We will not go away just because some crumpy old Expats would like us to!!!!! Our money is just as good as yours (not that we have that much of it but it's enough for traveling and some purchases)and we respect the local people and nature no less than seasoned Expats. We have never gotten negativity from Locals but mostly from Expat type people. I do want to add that we have met mostly very nice Expats on AC and that there are just a few crumpy types. In matter of fact very good friends of ours are Expats and live on AC and they are very positive people.
Posted By: munichchick Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/31/02 05:38 PM
Well LongCayeTruth! Than be glad you don't own a lot there and that we will get all washed away. And no resort can exist there? Look at the Lighthouse Reef Resort. They are doing just fine. In regards to titles. Scubalady and I actually have official Land Certificates with our names on it stamped, signed and filed in Belmopan by the Land Ministry of Belize. We don't try to make anyone buy on Long Caye. Make your own decissions and visit the Island first to make sure it is for you. The only reason why I posted the link to the Long Caye Preserve was to let fellow Belize lovers take a look and see how things where coming along because we are excited about it. Some people had questions and I was trying to be helpful and answer some of them even so everything is explained on the Long Caye website for everyone to read that is interested. Go ahed and bite my head off for buying into a development that we like but if you truly think this Island would have been sitting there undeveloped right next to the Blue Hole and major dive sites for the next 10 years you are dreaming just as much as we are dreaming about a eco-friendly beautiful place to spend some time on when we are older. I am just so glad that you and Bywarren are so much better and smarter than us. At least we still have a dream besides your negative doom and gloom attitude. We knew we where taking a risk buying in a foreign country, we know any type of human development is bad for the environment in matter of fact any human using the toilet in a country where sewage treatment is not done is bad for the environment. Sure the whole world would be a much better place if there wouldn't be so many darn humans.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/31/02 06:39 PM
CHICK...it sounds to me like your not really sure???and your trying to convince yourself you did the right thing?I just have one more thing to say and i will shutup.I live in the USA,and i would never do any realestate deal here with out a title search done,i dont care what kind of paper you have recived from the sellers.With no title search you dont know who owns what or what liens are still outstanding.And this is in the states where most realestate deals are on the up and up,,but your in Belize!Belize is well know for its realestate scams!But with that said,you never answered any of my questions?Where is the sewer going?Where is the power to come from?How are any of you going to clear land to build homes and not silt the coral?,or make the place wash away?How will your homes stand up to a 200mph wind?What about a 14'rise in the ocean that comes with big storms?(the island is only 4' above the sea at it highest point).It seems to me these questions scare you long caye owners and when any one ask them you attack the person asking?WHY IS THAT?As for me i really dont care one way or the other if you go there and kill all the wildlife,or lose all your money.I just need to understand people like you that are so far out of touch with the real world and live in some dream fog,i just cant see people being this reckless with there money and dreams?BUT YOUR OUT THERE AND I SEE MORE AND MORE OF YOU COMING TO BELIZE???OR SHOULD I SAY TALKING ABOUT COMING?BECAUSE YOUR STILL NOT HERE AND YOUR ISLAND DREAM IS STILL THAT A DREAM NOTHING HAS BEEN DONE YET,STILL JUST ALL ON PAPER!could you answer any of my questions?
Posted By: ScubaLdy Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/31/02 07:01 PM
LongCayeTruth
MuniChick answered some of your questions. I don't know what can be said to get people to stop visualizing BIG resort Condo type hotels. Blue Hole Dive Resort has designs (yes I've actually seen them) for 4 two-bedroom and 6 one-bedroom units to look like thatched cabanas. They will have their office, classroom, equipment room and photo center in addition to this. ALL ONE STORY buildings.
Long Caye Dive Resort is planning for (I think but have not seen the plans) 6 units.
There are already a number of isolated resorts out in the atolls that have survived years of hurricanes - so stop that scare tactic please. Damage can be expected but I saw with my own eyes and touched with my own hands the solid construction of the dormitory. I understand earthquake proofing and believe me - what they built would stand up to a level six. That is why I am willing to have them build my little cabana. the roof may go - that's the nature of roofs, but I will have wooden shutters covering all glass windows. Screens may be torn, but they are not expensive to replace.
I don't know of a single place on the face of the earth that you could guarantee anyone that Mother Nature may not hit hard, just when you least expect it. I for one, would expect storms and hopefully be prepared.

There will be NO sewers on the island. There will be NO wells on the island. The only clearing will be vegetation to make room for the actual structure - all of us want as many trees as possible kept. The only invading of the limestone crust will be for cement posts. The lot itself doesn't even have to be level.

As for density - I grew up in Oregon and lived on old homesteads so I have a very good visual sense of what a mile. A homestead was a section of land. A section is 640 acres, which is one mile by one mile.
That's why all the roads up there were one mile apart. Where I live now it is 13 blocks from my house to the county administrative building and I used to walk to work everyday. It is one mile. There are on average, 5 house per block. Five times 13 = 65. So one square mile would hold 845 town lots. That's less than half the island.

For the record - I am against any dredging and have talked to Larry about this. I am trying to follow this closely. So, like MuniChick, just because we bought in does not mean we do not have concerns. We do and we voice them. She is right, I have clear title to my first lot and have just sent in the paperwork for my second.

As far as there only being two of us on the "chat board"??? I don't know what board you are looking at. The one I moderate has 77 members. Not everyone posts to the board, just as not everyone who lurks here posts. However, it is a forum for us to communicate with each other and stay up to date on development and concerns.

So guys - where would you like us to spend our money? Belize is begging for economic assistance. My first attraction, besides the diving, was the people. My second is that Belizians come first. I'm sick of the illegal immigration into California and the welfare state that we have become. I like it that to come into Belize you have to have enough GUARENTEED INCOME to support yourself. I love Ambergris Caye and will probably spend half of my Belize time in San Pedro.

Now that we have a good dialog going with byWarren, maybe LongCayeTruth will join in - unless he is the dreaded Amos - oh horrors she said.

Now I need to take the monster 3 year old twins to the ocean, which is a two hour drive from here and their parents have never taken them nor the 6 year old. She backed out on our planned trip this spring because she was afraid of sharks. OH MY GOD - poor children who don't know the difference between the beach and the ocean. At least while the boys are in their car seats they can't hit each other. Wish me luck.
Harriette
Posted By: munichchick Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/31/02 07:43 PM
Okay! This is the last post I am adding to this topic. Many of the answeres to your questions about toilets, water, power etc. are answered on www.longcayebelize.com
In regards to silt. No mangroves can be cleared and only undergrowth and a very limited amount of larger Vegetation can be cleared in order to build therefore there should not be a problem with silt. This is also covered on their website. We are very well aware of the Hurricane situation and this is the risk most people have to take living along the Caribbean coast and will be included into the construction plans "if" we decide to build. We have a constant earthquake risk here in California that we have to live with as well. We purchased the land with the help of Pitts and Elrington Law Firm. I checked them out and Mr. Elrington is a very respected attorney in Belize City. The Long Caye Preserve was registered with the Ministry of Land when I called them. The reason why we did not do a title search is that we only paid $9,000 for our lot and a title search would have cost more than it is worse to us. We never planed on building on our lot right away or make any decissions in regards to what we will do with the land until down the line as we are not close to retirement yet. We just wanted to make sure we own at least a lot before prices go way up as they have on AC and be a part of the community. We might just decide to camp on the land in a very nice wall tent with proper decomposting outhouse and solar shower, solar lamps and candles. They got some great gear at Cabella's and we love camping! We would never move there for full time residency. This is for extended stays only for us (maybe 2 month at a time) We are not idiots and own real estate in California and have done very well with that. To me the USA was also a foreign country when we bought our first house. Now I feel at home there. Again I am not posting here to sell anyone Long Caye or convincing anyone about anything. You can have your opinions about it and I have my own opinion. If you have any more questions don't ask me. Read the website and call the Long Caye Preserve Developers since they will be happy to answer all your qyestions. And by the way! I am not the one that started attacking people. It is you that started to pick on Long Caye Owners. Since you think this is a horrible development just be glad you don't own there. If you would like the owners to know your opinion call them! The phone number is on the website. That's it for me I said enough. What a waiste of time anyway. I don't even know you people or want to know you. I know you hope our dream to fail and we would just all wash away and that sure shows what kind of person you are.
Posted By: munichchick Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 07/31/02 07:57 PM
Well said Harriette! I am not sure if I will ever post anything here again considering what I had to read just because I shared the Long Caye link and not having anything but good in mind. Now we are being called Hypocrats, People that will polute and destroy and Island and people hope we will wash away in the next Storm. This is sure a nice Message Board Community! I know there are many very nice people posting on this board as well and I am sorry they had to read all this outburst. I appologize for this as I am usually a very peaceful and nice person but I am also sensitive because I feel strongly about protecting the environment and wish nothing but good for my fellow Belize Friends. I am the kind of person you will find on the side of the trail and beach picking up other peoples trash, adopting homeless animals, donating money to various environmental and animals causes, telling others to please not to step on the coral, does not wear sunscreen when snorkeling at a reef or cenote (sinkhole) and treats everyone with the same respect I would like to be treated with. Thanks a lot for making me wish I would have never posted here. Have a nice day!
Posted By: klcman Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 08/01/02 01:29 AM
please note that "longcayetruth" is unregistered...what does THAT tell you?

Marty- have the rules changed? I thought one MUST register to post.
Posted By: susangg Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 08/01/02 02:09 AM
Much of this debate is over nought...because these large "planned communities" in the developing world never reach capacity, no matter how much "BUY NOW, WE'RE SELLING OUT!" hype is generated. The good beachfront lots sell out reasonably fast, the rest (ie, most of them) just sit there as inventory.
And typically, of the people that buy, only a small percentage actually build anything. Most owners just sit on their lots, and eventually re sell them and the next owner sits on his lot, etc.
It is extremely unlikely that there will ever be enough people actually living on Long Caye to create an "overdevelopment" problem; ie, too many humans in too small a space.
The biggest problem for the buyers is that the promises made by the developer about infrastructure, amenities, health clubs, medical centers, marinas, etc. etc. will never happen because the developer will run out of money and there will be insufficient interest on the part of investors to build major projects.
Anyone who buys into one of these projects should be aware of this and should ask himself or herself "would I want to live here even if nothing else ever happens?"

Also: Those of you who are upset about a new rule banning animals need to consult an attorney. Homeowner association law is arcane, but you are supposed to be given a copy of the CCR's when you buy and there are constraints on modification of them by the developer. (**Of course, the latter comment is based on what happens in the US...in Belize, who knows?) If it was me, I would just bring the bow-wows and challenge anyone who didn't like it to sue me. It's not likely to happen and if it did, it would probably take years to resolve.
Posted By: bywarren Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 08/01/02 02:19 PM
I know Scubaldy and Munichchick are intellegent enough to really understand what is going on here. What is demeaning to me is they think some of the rest of us have such little intellegence that we would believe this BS. To quote from the developers web site "sea turtles and red footed booby birds have nested on this island for generations. The island itself is populated with many exotic species of birds, retiltes, plants and marine life including some endangered species". Not to use the US as any kind of perfect example, but if a developer were to try and put this kind of development on a wet lands that was the home to nesting wildlife and endangered species, he would be tarred, feathered and run out of town if not thrown in jail. These greedy people come to Belize to do this simply because it is one of the few places left that they can get by with it. It is sad to me that the Belize goverment allows this. And once again, it is not my country. So all I can do is speak out. I hope you are right Susan in that it will not come to fruition. It is just too bad we have to leave this up to chance.
Posted By: munichchick Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 08/01/02 06:05 PM
Susan, I think you are right! Many lots will probably never be built on and we also might not decide to build. It is hard to say how things will turn out over the years. But we have time and are willing to wait and see and than make that decission. For now the birds and reptiles own our lot. Unfortunately, here in California they have built Toll Roads and big housing projects right into endangered species and sacred Amercian Indian sites. Sure the environmental groups portested but $$$$ seems to win in the end. Very sad. These developments don't even try to be eco-friendly. After all Belize is still way better off and probably will never get as over developed as parts of the US, Europe and Asia.
Posted By: mddev Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 08/02/02 10:13 PM
Susan or Munichchick,

Could you e-mail me. We are coming down in Oct (I now, not really the best time) and would like to check out Long Caye. It sounds like something the wife and I have been dreaming about (yes, we're still dreamers,lol). We realize everyone has their opinions but as everyone knows, where there's developement, some destruction will happen but it does seem like they are at least going the right way and trying to limit it.

Mark
[email protected]
Posted By: ScubaLdy Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 08/04/02 10:49 PM
copied from Sunsan's msg: Much of this debate is over nought...because these large "planned communities" in the developing world never reach capacity, . . .

Point of interest: Why do you refer to this as a large planned community? It seems to me to be planned and promoted as a small, remote community. Just curious and wondering if maybe innocent statements like this feed the negative bunch who keep talking about "large resorts."

BTW - beware of "BelizeLover45" it's Amos/Soma/Lot141/ etc., etc., slipping in again to throw his ugly hate around.

For those of you who may be new or nearly new to this board, there is a guy who spends his whole life spreading rubbish about Belize. He is one of the reasons you NEVER want to list your e-mail address here and why Marty protects us all. Once he gets yours he will fill your mailbox with angry attacks on you personally. I know, I get them and my post here will generate a bunch more.
Posted By: Enigma Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 08/05/02 12:03 AM
Hariette,
I hope this whole thing works out not only for all of you who have invested and have your hopes and dreams set on this place, but first and foremost for all the the wildlife that has been coming and going from there since probably way before you were born.

Once the developement gets a little farther along and the wildlife senses human activity, I have serious doubts that somethings won't change in terms of their behavior.
Sometimes mother nature and animals have a far more keen sense of what is natural and safe than we do as humans. It's something they are born with for protection.
I'm not saying everything will change and I'm sure you will still see some of the wildlife. Some will adapt and just move to the end of the island where they say they aren't building, but there is a lot of wildlife habitating in places that we don't even know about because we never see it.

You ask about the reference to this as being a large project. In my opinion, 700 lots regardless of whether they are actually built on or not is a lot of surveyed land.

If a simple community subdivision were to go up on ambergris Caye with 700 plots in it, it would be a BIG DEAL! Now compare the size of Ambergris Caye to that of Long Caye, and supposedly they aren't even developing the southern end of Long Caye.

I still haven't heard any answers on where all the waste water is going to go. It has to go somewhere. People wash clothes, take showers, wash dishes, etc.

It would be my guess that whoever is doing this project has MAJOR MONEY or had access to major money to get this approved and off the ground.

If you remember almost 2 years ago now there was a huge project slated to go up in the Punta Azul area on Ambergris Caye. Actually, I think it was 2 phases, approx. 250 rooms a piece. All the modern conveniences and ammenities of fine luxury resorts.
That project is dead in the water. I would love to hear what the real story on that was because supposedly the Belize ovt. was to be a part of that project.

You figure 500 rooms with an avg. of 3 people per room if packed to capacity is 1500 people. The "rumor" I heard is that the powers that be didn't think the land could support that volume of people or it's effect on resources. Note I said "Rumor".

Long Caye is a tiny place, out in the middle of the ocean and with 700 lots, some commercial, with let's say an avg. of 2 people per lot, that's 1400 people.
I say what's the difference in the 2 projects size wise? 100 people?

My point is, if that project got scraped and the government had an interest in it, then I can't imagine what it must have taken to get approval for the Long Caye project.

I would love to hear from anybody that has more accurate details on that Punta Azul project. My curiosity is killing me, LOL.

Sorry, just my humble opinion.
Posted By: JmHanna Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 08/05/02 05:04 AM
ByWarren,
You are not here are you?
Get your ass back--I need moral support!!
Also
Why do the fly bent up divers to Cozumel during the refurbishing of the San Pedro Chamber if they have one on Long Caye?
Hmmm
Posted By: ScubaLdy Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 08/05/02 09:01 AM
Pier - there isn't much of anything on Long Caye right now. The medical center and chamber are PLANNED to be opened in the spring of 2003. I would be surprised if it makes that date, but who knows.
Is the chamber in San Pedro back in operation? I heard the building that housed it was burned down in the fire.
ByW - I appreciate your tone lately. Thanks
Whoever asked about the waste water. The gray water is to be run through a leach field. Actually biodegradable soap (or detergent) is actually a good fertilizer. We each have to have a composter for garbage and trash is to be recycled and taken off the island. Now, where it will be taken to I don't know.
I have no doubt that we will have an impact on the wildlife - let's just try to make it as minimal as possible.
Maybe even have a positive affect - STOP LAUGHING - I'm thinking of the turtles. In Sipadan, in Malaysia there is a guy who rescues the eggs, hatches them and releases the babies. It was such a sight to see - those little guys heading STRAIGHT to the ocean. We had to move a twig for one fella because he couldn't get over it and would not go around it. Hummm - sounds like some people I've met.

And as much as MuniChick is adversely affected by it, I'm sure that is the reason for no domestic animals.


BTW Muni - don't apologize for starting the topic. I think a lot of good information has been exchanged.
I've worked for hours on my web page and have the Belizelc (for Long Caye) page almost finished. My Belizeac(for Ambergris Caye of course) is ready to launch. I'll let you know when you can take a peek.
Harriette
Posted By: bywarren Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 08/05/02 02:20 PM
Right Jim, I am still in states enjoying "living in the woods with no neighbors". Will return in Sept. Scubaldy refers to my "tone". Maybe you should refer her to the time when you wanted to give me a bloody nose (when I thought I deserved a bloody mary) just so she knows everyone gets enough of me sooner or later. LOL I figure at the rate I am going it won't be long before people just chip in to get me a plane ticket to send me away somewhere. See, there are methods to my madness. Sorry I am going to miss your dinero giveaway this month. Just give my share to my banker Piasano and tell him to hold it for me. Thanks, By, until later.
Posted By: berferd Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 08/05/02 03:11 PM
Minor de-lurk here...

I laughed out loud when I read the comment about the leach field. Leech fields are ok when you've got many feet of earth under you to absorb the waste. But no way are leach fields on an atoll going to be able to absorb enough waste water. Remember, just a few feet down is coral (which doesn't absorb anything). The waste water will leach into the ocean.

On a different note, who is going to enforce all these "eco-friendly" rules?
Posted By: Enigma Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 08/05/02 04:19 PM
Ahhhh...exactly!!
I'm glad somebody sees my point.

I would be interested in just how many inches/feet there are of sand, soil, limestone, etc...there are when you dig in different areas of Long Caye.

I would think you wouldn't have to dig far before you hit rock.

I think I'd be worried that with all the digging and pounding of pilings for homes you might actually cause small faults (or cracks) and wake up one day to discover your lot has broken off and floated away.
That would be a rude awakening!

Pardon me while I go think some more.
Posted By: bywarren Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 08/05/02 07:28 PM
I must once again compliment you Enigma on the diplomatic way you put things. Berferd, you sound a little like I used to before changing my "tone" to more accomodate Scubaldy. You need to try and be a little more kind and gentle. And to Scubaldy and Munichchick, let me say that I believe my life would have been much enriched if I would have met more people like you earlier-before I retired from selling used cars.

PS: as far as enforcement of the eco-guide lines, it will obviously be the eco-police, working on the eco-friendly island, populated by the eco-minded inhabitants and businesses, and home to the eco-marina built with the help of the eco-dredge. Anyone with any eco-intellegence would have figured that out.

[This message has been edited by bywarren (edited 08-05-2002).]
Posted By: Enigma Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 08/05/02 11:51 PM
LOL
*handing Bywarren a new shiny shovel*
You just keep digging that hole buddy! LOL
Just be careful Scubaldy and MC don't snatch it from you and pound you over the head with it! LOL
Posted By: JmHanna Re: Long Caye at Lighthouse Reef - 08/06/02 01:03 AM
Scubalady,
The chamber was being renovated at the time of the fire and didn't appear to be affected. Its almost finished.
Also
The Long Caye web site clearly shows a chamber. What's up with that?
By--you want I buy you a ticket or two?
You can owe me or Pisano can owe you--Geesh--beancounters are getting hard to find here I guess.
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