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Carnival contract is "Rape of patrimony"

Posted By: SP Daily

Carnival contract is "Rape of patrimony" - 10/08/04 03:24 PM

BTIA: Carnival contract is "Rape of patrimony

They represent more than four hundred tour guides, tour operators, and hoteliers and today, the Belize Tourism Industry Association is not happy. After taking a good look at the contract signed between the Carnival Corporation and the Government of Belize, the BTIA is seeing red. According to the organization's President, Steve Schulte, the clauses contained in the contract would lower the boom on Belize's tourism industry as we know it.

Steven Schulte, President, BTIA
“We have eight hundred million dollars invested in this industry. Our investments are continually threatened individually and collectively. As an example, look at the Carnival project, the greed of a few individuals has led them to sell our industry and our nation. They claim they will invest a hundred million in our country, but the plan only provides fro them to build their own pier, their own tourist village, their own shops, their own hotel and their own casino to compete with those businesses which are already established here. They are investing nothing in the infrastructure of our parks, our Maya sites, our marine reserves, our fisheries or even our agricultural produce. In fact the contract specifically states that they exempt from dealing with Belizean labour or contractors in the construction or operation of their business.”

“They are given the right to bring unlimited amount of passengers, but reduce the fees pays to support our protected areas from twenty percent of the head tax to one flat Belizean dollar; fifty cents U.S. They want to rape our patrimony and tell us it’s good for us.”

“Finally, they hold themselves apart from any future law or regulation we might pass to protect our country’s natural resources and our labours. The contract that Carnival has negotiated on the false promise of investing in this country, gives them every right to pillage our country and our industry while they drive out their own competition. How will the existing Tourist Village stay in business if they have to hire Belizean labour under Belizean law, while Carnival brings in the cheapest labour it can find? Why should we stand by and give them this advantage? I am aware that we have differences within our membership. We can and will work on those. We cannot afford to fight among ourselves. If your future and your family’s future is tied to Belize, you need to join BTIA today and support it with your active participation. We are in a struggle for the survival of tourism industry in this nation including sustainable cruise tourism. We have the power if we stand together.”

Schulte was speaking at the BTIA's nineteenth Annual General Meeting held this afternoon at the Princess Hotel and Casino.
Posted By: Katie Valk

Re: Carnival contract is "Rape of patrimony" - 10/08/04 05:03 PM

Carnivore Cruise line
Posted By: Barbara K

Re: Carnival contract is "Rape of patrimony" - 10/08/04 05:38 PM

Cap't Jeff - care to comment since your livlihood is cruise lines?
Posted By: silkpainter

Re: Carnival contract is "Rape of patrimony" - 10/09/04 12:09 AM

I was at that meeting yesterday. The BTIA has no problem with Royal Caribbean, its only Carnival Cruises. Carnival Cruises caters to a lower class (for lack of a better term) customer, and its management seems to reflect that same mentality. I hope that the tourism stakeholders in Belize make so much of a fuss that they get tired of the rass and go somewhere else (with their haul-yur-ass glass of beer).

I thought this quote was appropriate yesterday:
Lucy Fleming (Chaa Creek) – New BTIA President
"We are not against cruise ship tourism, we are for cruise ship tourism, it is one of our sectors but what we are totally against is the unregulated growth of this sector. We feel that Carnival is the bull in the china shop and we are frightened that this bull will ruin our merchandise and scare off our customers. We're wondering why we weren't consulted as leaders in the tourism industry. We are wondering why our minister was not consulted, nor his ministry, nor the Belize Tourism Board. So we would want some answers from government. And once we have those answers we'll be able to entertain further how we feel. But as of now, no, we are not appreciative that a contract has been signed without bringing us into play because after all we are the heart and sould of the tourism industry in this country."
Posted By: Denny Shane

Re: Carnival contract is "Rape of patrimony" - 10/09/04 01:47 PM

I can appreciate Lucy's remark, however SOMEONE was consulted. Someone in the government gave his/her ok. These ships didn't just show up and unload passengers one morning. eek
Posted By: SP Daily

Re: Carnival contract is "Rape of patrimony" - 10/09/04 04:11 PM

OPPOSITION DOES WORK!
"Progreso, the capital of Mexico's Yucatan state, is suddenly becoming a cruise port. The Gulf of Mexico city, founded in 1872, is a jumping off point for the Mayan town of Merida, 40 kilometres to the south. It's being used by Carnival Cruise ships this year after Carnival put a plan to build a permanent port for its ships at Xcaret, near Cancun, on hold because of local opposition."
Posted By: Secret Garden Placencia

Re: Carnival contract is "Rape of patrimony" - 10/09/04 04:11 PM

It's already listed on their web site http://www.carnival.com/SiteSearchResults.aspx?query=belize
Posted By: Jack and Rose

Re: Carnival contract is "Rape of patrimony" - 10/11/04 03:54 PM

Hey Babara K, my exact sentiments as to what capt jeff thinks about this because thats how he makes a living,sending cruise people all over the carib.
I doubt if he will comment much because there once was some other bad news about the cruise industry and he somehow managed to not comment. I guess unless a subject involves something other than his buddy the fisherman who he pushes constantly he won't respond.


Silkpainter, you good folks were not consulted because you don't grease the palms of the government officals like the entire cruise industry does!!!
Posted By: Chris

Re: Carnival contract is "Rape of patrimony" - 10/11/04 04:20 PM

I think you're being very unfair on Capt. Jeff. His is a family owned cruise ship travel agency. He is not Carnival or Royal Caribbean or anyone else. He doesn't, and can't, make policy for them.

I actually don't blame Carnival as much as I blame the Govt of Belize.
If the Govt. of Belize had said "no" to Carnival then Carnival would have to negotiate a more reasonable deal. The Govt. didn't say "no" because the usual culprits in the cabinet obviously accepted money from Carnival to say "yes." Carnival were just adoping the usual U.S. business practice of "getting away with it if you can." Nothing wrong with that...if you can get away with it.

As an individual, Capt. Jeff is actually the ideal overnight tourist for Belize. He comes about 10 times a year for a week at a time. He actively helps the economic well-being of a San Pedro family by enjoying their guiding services to the max. AND he is now an investor in Belize.

What do YOU suggest he does, Jack and Rose and Barbara K? Write fierce letters to Carnival? Become an anti-cruise ship activist? Close his family business down and make about 60 people unemployed?

I suggest you direct your ire solely at the Usual Culprits in Belmopan.
Posted By: Barbara K

Re: Carnival contract is "Rape of patrimony" - 10/11/04 07:37 PM

No criticism of Cap't Jeff - just wondered if he had any comments since he deals with the cruiselines so closely. No offense intended on my part.
Posted By: captjeff

Re: Carnival contract is "Rape of patrimony" - 10/22/04 02:34 PM

to all above and to chris my buddy who i am proud to know ,who knows where I truly am comming from and is a great guy.... yes I own a cruise only travel agency in fact the largest in the country family owned ..and I can tell you I have no say !!!!!!!!in what the cruise lines do , or as much say as we in what the politicians do in world do .!!!!!!! I came here on a cruise ship loved the people , just bought a condo,surpoted the community ,spent lots money here on the island .and yes jack and rose I have taken a liking to a guide capt bicho who lost his house in the storm a few years ago ,he has two deaf sons and surports six kids and a hell of a nice guy and great fisherman ..I have many new friends here ,donate to all the local charties,just sent $$$$a thousand belize to the s.p.s c. for the last fund drive and try help lots of people here in sanpedro...so I can talk the talk ,and walk the walk .. life is short ,you know nothing about me yet you want to put me in a bad light,about the cruise port plans ,like get a life, wake up .. what do I have with this deal ..why not blame all the lawyers ,they did the contract.or all the people in the belize govt .I am enjoying life ,trying to do good things for people in sanpedro .and try living the dream all the time . leave me alone on this ..
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Carnival contract is "Rape of patrimony" - 10/22/04 04:32 PM

Capt Jeff,
I have much admiration for you. You are the perfect "tourist" to Belize! Congrads on buying a condo. I think it's wonderful that you found a place you love and COMPLIMENT it, instead of taking from it. I know few Americans that actually help the more unfortunate people of the world, and you take that to a higher level. Your support of a local family shows that you are very generous and that you believe in helping others. While you might not be totally rewarded for it in this life, you will reap the benefits in the next.
That said.... I am not in support of tourists (of any kind) that don't treat Belize with kid gloves. Our infrastructure is very weak, and we will break if stretched far enough. I can't say that I fault Carnival even.... everyone wants a good deal! I am a member of the BTIA, and support their position 100%. The BZ government that would allow this agreement needs to do their job and make Belize stronger, not weaken it until there is nothing left.
Cheerz,
Vicki
Posted By: Barbara K

Re: Carnival contract is "Rape of patrimony" - 10/22/04 06:22 PM

Just wanted your opinion. Don't get so defensive! I send a ton of tourists there too who I'm sure some of them trash the place, step on the coral, buy lobster out of season, get drunk and be obnoxious, etc. I blame the gov't for the most part as well.
Posted By: Chris

Re: Carnival contract is "Rape of patrimony" - 10/22/04 06:51 PM

Barbara K: I think Capt Jeff only referred to Jack and Rose in his reply, not to you. You'd already explained why you were asking for his opinion earlier in the thread.

Don't get so defensive!
Posted By: Barbara K

Re: Carnival contract is "Rape of patrimony" - 10/22/04 08:23 PM

smile
Posted By: Chris

Re: Carnival contract is "Rape of patrimony" - 10/22/04 08:37 PM

smile smile smile
Posted By: captjeff

Re: Carnival contract is "Rape of patrimony" - 10/22/04 09:31 PM

barbara my reply was not at you but jack and rose ,who in the past have been very nice .. but now think I will roll over and let them get me in a debate,about cruise ship pass. to belize good or bad ??thats the reason I did not try to get in a chat,because it would be bias and not fair...each day I learn more about , the people on this board,...some things I like.. some I do not . but some person trying to take my personal inventory is just not right.any way barbara I did not go into the above post directed at you.. but merely to state my point .. and to let jack and rose know to take a hike..they now are off my christmas card list..
Posted By: Barbara K

Re: Carnival contract is "Rape of patrimony" - 10/22/04 10:01 PM

From the "other" message board

http://www.belizeforum.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=19;t=000075
Posted By: captjeff

Re: Carnival contract is "Rape of patrimony" - 10/23/04 03:20 PM

a good example of the ship hitting the fan ..now all in belize are in deep ship.. what some people will not do to turn a buck ..
Posted By: yat

Re: Carnival contract is "Rape of patrimony" - 10/23/04 05:06 PM

Capt. Jeff,

Well said and well done!! You've got my respect.

yat
Posted By: Catatonic Motivator

Re: Carnival contract is "Rape of patrimony" - 10/25/04 03:59 PM

Boy, there's some serious hooey being bandied about here, no?

Sometimes you need to do more than just believe whatever you read.
Posted By: SP Daily

Re: Carnival contract is "Rape of patrimony" - 10/26/04 03:41 PM

Musa Lashes Out at 'Foriegners' in BTIA

The Cabinet has asked the Prime Minister to renegotiate government's April 29th agreement with Carnival. And the Prime Minister has agreed to pursue what he characterizes as minor, discretionary changes. Whether Carnival will agree to make changes to an enforceable, sovereign contract is, of course, another story. But after weeks of having the Carnival contract passed about, one thing is for sure, the Prime Minister now knows who his friends are, and their numbers do not include hotel owners.

The leaders of the Belize Tourism Industry Association in particular have publicly stated their utter disregard for the agreement and its architects. Well, as the nation found out at Friday's house meeting, two can play the name-calling and finger-pointing game. The Prime Minister used his national platform in the House of Representatives to call out the BTIA leaders as foreigners.

Hon. Said Musa,
“I listened to some so-called representative of BTIA calling this contract outrageous, condemning it. I would say here, for the record Madam Speaker, that these people should not expect that this tourist industry should be owned exclusively by them; foreigners. The Belizeans have every right to participate in this industry and this cruise industry policy, when its implemented, will ensure, and the Carnival project too will ensure, that this project be expanded to give Belizeans a chance; an expanded chance in the tourist industry.”
Posted By: dbdoberman

Re: Carnival contract is "Rape of patrimony" - 10/27/04 06:22 AM

wow, wonder what the reaction of the BTIA will be?
I guess our emails won't have much impact, will they?
Posted By: Jack and Rose

Re: Carnival contract is "Rape of patrimony" - 10/27/04 03:25 PM

Hey Capt Jeff, you were right I was out of line,and my apologies for my remarks. I guess I was having a bad day. I truly like you.

But I,m not having a bad day today!!!!! THE RED SOX ARE ONE AWAY!!!!!!!!!!! "What a strange long trip it's been" What a great bunch of lunch pail ballplayers. The looseness you see is for real.

One game at a time,one at bat at a time,one pitch at a time. It works. I first went to Fenway park as a 7yr old to see Ted Williams with my dad. That was fifty years ago this year. How sweet it will be. A victory will be for all those who have come and gone and always coming up a little short. I think a lot of baseball fans have a little of the Red Sox in them. Oops, I forgot about the Yankee Fans!!!! There still lapping the wounds and not that graciously. In that seventh game they looked like "pinstripe" Wall street broker's with briefcases going to work.
Posted By: Sir Isaac Newton

Re: Carnival contract is "Rape of patrimony" - 10/27/04 07:02 PM

Hey, we (NY) can't win ALL the time.

Enjoy it, it'll be another 86 years. :p

SIN
Posted By: Sir Isaac Newton

Re: Carnival contract is "Rape of patrimony" - 10/27/04 07:15 PM

Carnival negotiations seek compromise
Meetings surrounding the controversial Carnival contract continued this week as key players met in Belize City to navigate a way forward in negotiations. News 5 understands that on Monday, Minister of Tourism Mark Espat and Chairman of the Belize Tourism Board, Therese Rath, met with representatives of the Carnival Cruise Line, namely Giora Israel, Vice President of Strategic Planning and their man on the ground here in Belize, Francesco Morello. Also at the meeting was Luke Espat of Belize Ports Limited and his financial backers, Phillip Obsbourne and Phillip Johnson of the Belize Bank. While exact details of the meeting have not been publicized, reports out of Belmopan indicate that significant progress was made towards an understanding of Government's position as Carnival made 'a lot of movement' towards a compromise. We understand that a list of draft points has been agreed to which will now be reduced to writing and finalized by the end of the week for final approval by both sides. But while this new agreement is supposed to get the Government out of hot water over the cruise port contract, the legal eagles are still trying to come up with language to characterise the document. Essentially, it will be a contract within a contract, but word is that Carnival has maintained its objections to calling the agreement an amendment, deed or anything close to those references, preferring the more vague term: "Memorandum of Understanding". That M.O.U. is to lay out the strategy for "clarifying" some issues presently contained in the contract, including exemption of Carnival from the Belize Cruise Ship Policy, especially clauses speaking to the number of cruise passengers which may visit Belize on a daily basis, licensing fees and the use of Belizean labour by the company. Prime Minister Said Musa signed the contract with Carnival on the twenty-third of April of this year. In September, Tourism Minister Mark Espat asked cabinet to review the document and renegotiate with the cruise line. Official groundbreaking ceremonies for the fifty million U.S. dollar project were held on April twenty-ninth in Port Loyola. Actual construction appears to be waiting on the outcome of this week's talks.
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