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San Pedro Shark Tournament

Posted By: elbert

San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/10/08 03:46 PM

.....The San Pedro Sun front page story about this weekends Shark Fishing Tournament kinda spun my head around. I love Captain Sharks, they are even friends and San Pedro, love you too,
but killing sharks......Guys its an international opinion that killing sharks for sport is a nono,
and donating the meat to the school doesn't justify squat.
This isn't just my tree huggin opinion.
Remember the old adage 'any publicity is good publicity' Well, apparently not for shark tournaments San Pedros reputation for Eco Tourism will suffer for this.
Posted By: JZB

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/10/08 03:55 PM

I agree with you Elbert. Even the big shark fishing tournaments in Hawaii (televised on ESPN) do not allow you to kill the shark and if you do, it counts against your team. Catch and release only.
Isn't it enough that 100 million sharks are killed annually just for their fins? (http://www.sharkwater.com/education.htm)

But of course this is just my 2 Cents.
Posted By: elbert

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/10/08 03:57 PM

yep
http://www.hsus.org/wildlife/wildlife_news/monster_shark_tournament.html
http://www.divephotoguide.com/articles/oak_bluffs_monster_shark_tournament__martha__s_vineyard
http://www.sharksavers.org/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=294
I could go on and on but you get the point.
Posted By: Amanda Syme

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/10/08 04:00 PM

Captain Sharks canceled this event due to the public outcry against it.

Posted By: JZB

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/10/08 04:01 PM

Great News!
Posted By: elbert

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/10/08 04:03 PM

Lets have a developer bashing tournament , now that would be fun.
Posted By: elbert

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/10/08 04:09 PM

Amanda
are you saying that just to defuse the thread or is it really still on and renamed.
Posted By: Amanda Syme

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/10/08 04:13 PM

Elbert I am saying what I was told by James Ritchie yesterday. Please, if you have question about the tournament or anything else to do with Captain Sharks call them.

Why would I be trying to defuse your thread. It is a moot point, so nothing to defuse.
Posted By: elbert

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/10/08 04:26 PM

called, they have changed the name of the tournament to 'Deep Water' and its still on.
Posted By: captjeff

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/10/08 04:31 PM

last trip I caught a bull shark while groupper fishing ...the guide wanted to keep it I said a big nooooooooooooo.We released the shark carefully as you can ...I have seen the light years ago...I keep snapper ,and any fish that feeds hungry people but no shark...Just my personal opinion..
Posted By: elbert

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/10/08 04:35 PM

That's why your on the 'Good Guys', list'. :-)
Posted By: elbert

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/10/08 04:39 PM

The Newspaper said the Sharks would be given to the Holy Cross Anglican School, but that a lame logic/justification for killing Sharks.
Posted By: captjeff

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/10/08 04:41 PM

elbert thank you my mentor..
Posted By: Canam

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/10/08 05:02 PM

Once again, a major player on the island contradicts the eco-tourism image that Belize has worked hard to gain. Simply ridiculous. The science is old on this one. Sharks play an invaluable role to sustaining a vibrant and healthy reef community. But hell, chop some more mangroves, fill some more sewage run-off, and promote tournaments like these. We'll see how long this island makes it then.
Posted By: elbert

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/10/08 05:26 PM

I'm with you on that Canam.
50 years ago It would be an event for all the island but the times
have changed and San Pedro needs to catch up with the world awareness.
Love you James...but bad idea , no prizes for catching and killing sharks.
and OMG the worst timing you could have this is Shark conservation week. foot in mouth James
Shark Week - 11-19 October 2008
http://www.projectaware.org/english/templates/news.aspx?id=1649
Posted By: collyk

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/10/08 05:44 PM

I was surprised and saddened by the announcement of this event. I just have unrealistic expectations about the enlightenment of others I suppose.
Posted By: elbert

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/10/08 06:14 PM

30 years ago the isolated Fishing Village Community that was San Pedro was dependent on the harvest of the commercial fishing industry, but that has changed and the necessity of good behavior in the international community is a large reality. We want to be seen as an Eco-Tourist Correct Location for that is now our bread and butter.

Posted By: LaurieMar

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/10/08 06:57 PM

Are lawyers allowed? LOL
Posted By: KC Jayhawk

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/10/08 07:02 PM

Only as chum . . .
Posted By: LaurieMar

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/10/08 07:11 PM

No KC, lawyers aka sharks, are higher on the food chain than chum!
Posted By: Peter Jones

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/11/08 12:53 AM

I wish Capn Shark's had listened to what was said to them and never announced it in the first place. It was an insane thing even to contemplate doing.
Posted By: ScubaLdy

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/11/08 06:46 AM

I called Capt. Shark's and they said it was cancelled. I called the Town Board and they referred me to the cell phone number that was shown in the flier. When I asked why a shark tournament she wanted to know my name then hung up. I called back and she was angry and said there was no law against catching sharks. I said it was a moral issue. She said there would be a meeting tonight and I could come if I wanted to complain. It just happened to be scheduled at the same time as the meeting about South Beach. Coincidence?

Following the South Beach meeting I was told that it is still on just been changed from sharks to something else.
Posted By: jilco

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/11/08 03:12 PM

But if they eat the shark meat then how is it different than any other fishing?
Posted By: elbert

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/11/08 03:17 PM

Thanks for asking Jilco
killing the sharks is the problem, who are already among the most overfished creatures in the world.Their important to the balance of the reef and there are so few now that there going to be on the endangered species list soon.
Posted By: elbert

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/11/08 03:26 PM

This copy below is being circulated by on of the largest and most powerful environmental protection agency's in the world.
We (San Pedro) for sure don't need tourist boycotting the island.
"Below is a list of the major shark tournaments and contacts at their local chambers of commerce. Please do your part and contact them. Let them know that you will broadcast the negative practice that their town endorses and glorifies - that you will do your part to curb tourism dollars from entering their jurisdiction. Let's help educate them about the plight of sharks and the need for the visible support of their protection. Point out their ethical responsibility to become part of the solution and let them know that otherwise they are part of the problem."
Posted By: JZB

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/11/08 04:09 PM

Here is a good little educational PDF brochure on sharks. Belize whale sharks are even mentioned. Be warned, some of the photos may be considered graphic.

http://www.sharkwater.com/downloads/pdfs/WildAid_Shark_Report2007.pdf
Posted By: ScubaLdy

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/11/08 08:30 PM

I was told by the local fishermen that only baby shark meat is any good to eat. The tournament said only sharks over 100 pounds would qualify. That meat is not good to eat. That is why the Japanese cut off only the fins and throw the rest of it away. This was a very ill conceived - but probably well meaning - plan.
Does anyone know what happened at the meeting last night?
Posted By: Amanda Syme

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/11/08 09:10 PM

Shark fins are considered a delicacy and a cure for many health issues - that is why the Japanese only take the fins. They make good money on the fins and therefore don't bother with the rest of the fish because they would make a much smaller profit for a lot more work, storage, processing etc. etc.

Obviously, as with any animal, the baby meat is nicer. But definitely folks eat larger shark meat too.

I had no idea that there was a meeting about the shark tournament - since I understand there is no shark tournament.
Posted By: Amanda Syme

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/11/08 09:13 PM

Most fishermen I know don't like catching shark. They are strong, it can be a tough fight, when you land them the meat needs a lot of processing to get rid of (I believe) the ammonia. It is a stinky, tough job.
Posted By: elbert

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/11/08 09:31 PM

Scubalady the tournament is still on it starts at 6am tomorrow leaving form the Ambergris Divers Dock. The meeting was last night and the name is now Deep Water Tournament.
Same prizes.
It will be interesting to see the catch they bring back and more interesting to see how the San Pedro Sun covers it.
A rose buy any other name still stinks.

Posted By: Amanda Syme

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/12/08 04:34 AM

So are you saying that the target catch is still sharks?
Posted By: skippy

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/12/08 06:22 AM

Amanda, why don't you follow the advice you gave elbert on page 1 and ask them yourself. Seems obvious however. And on something as disgusting as this, if you're not against it, then you're for it by default.

And the comment that fishermen/women don't want to catch them is beside the point and disingenuous. If you know this is going on and is just being re-named to escape scrutiny, inform people.

I'm an avid fisherman by the way. Release everything I catch. These people intend to catch sharks just to kill sharks. Sharks aren't hard to catch. It should be forbidden by law. I can't believe it's allowed.

Posted By: Peter Jones

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/12/08 08:39 AM

If this really is about catching sharks then I'm afraid the backlash in the world diving press will be severe. Many divers and some wholesalers won't go to a resort or even country that encourages shark fishing. This is an unbelievable own goal, at a time when we need all the help we can get to tempt divers to come here.
Posted By: lil'red

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/12/08 01:43 PM

I called them and was informed that is a big game tourney, not targeted at sharks. He also said the max is 1 shark per boat. So a marlin, (are they good eatin'?) or a barracuda anything, including a shark is a valid entry. I had a few other questions but the young man on the phone seemed very flustered and in a hurry. He was polite but obviously had received a ration of dissent from the public.
Posted By: elbert

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/12/08 03:29 PM

Sad News ,San Pedro is going to put on the blacklist with these;
from the New York Underwater Photographic Society
Below is a list of the major shark tournaments and contacts at their local chambers of commerce. Please do your part and contact them. Let them know that you will broadcast the negative practice that their town endorses and glorifies - that you will do your part to curb tourism dollars from entering their jurisdiction. Let's help educate them about the plight of sharks and the need for the visible support of their protection. Point out their ethical responsibility to become part of the solution and let them know that otherwise they are part of the problem.

Ocean City Shark Tournament
P.O. BOX 3038
Ocean City, Maryland 21843-3038
Mark Sampson 410-213-2442

Ocean City, Maryland Chamber of Commerce
12320 Ocean Gateway, Ocean City, Maryland 21842
410-213-0552
info@oceancity.org

Downeast Maine Shark Tournament
P.O. Box 1345
Biddeford, ME. 04005
maineshark2004@yahoo.com

Biddeford Chamber of Commerce
110 Main Street
Suite 1202
Saco, Maine 04072
info@biddefordsacochamber.org

Oak Bluffs Monster Shark Tournament
Steven James
President, BBG Fishing Club
57 Calypso lane.
Marshfield, MA 02050
email:bostonbiggame@hotmail.com
tel:781-834-2899

Martha’s Vineyard Chamber of Commerce
PO Box 1698
Vineyard Haven, MA 02568
(508) 693-0085
info@mvy.com

Cape May Shark Tournament
Chuck & Mary Hinchcliffe
Off the Hook B&T @ Hinch Marina
609-884-0444

Chamber of Commerce of Greater Cape May
P.O. BOX 556, CAPE MAY, NJ 08204
PHONE: (609) 884-5508
FAX (609) 884-2054

South Jersey Shark Tournament
South Jersey Marina
1231 U.S. Highway 109
P.O. Box 641
Cape May, NJ 08204
Voice: (609) 884-2400
Fax: (609) 884-0039
sjadmin@sjmarina.com

Chamber of Commerce of Greater Cape May
P.O. BOX 556, CAPE MAY, NJ 08204
PHONE: (609) 884-5508
FAX (609) 884-2054

Montauk Shark Tournament
Star Island Yacht Club
PO Box 2180
Montauk Point, NY 11954
(631) 668-5052
(631) 668-5503 Fax
Reservations@starislandyc.com

The Montauk Chamber of Commerce:
742 Montauk Hwy
Montauk, NY
11954-5338
Phone: (631) 668-2428
Fax: (631) 668-9363

Casco Bay Maine Shark Tournament
dave@keenanauction.com

Casco Town Office
635 Meadow Rd.
Casco, ME 04015
PO Box 60
Tel: (207) 627-4515
Fax: (207) 627-4180
Conservation Committee
Georgette Burgess 207-627-4585
Nadia Hermos (Sec'y) 207-627-4241 hermos@aol.com
Beverly White 207-627-4179 bwhite03@maine.me.us

Freeport Shark Tournament
Freeport Hudson Anglers Inc.
P.O. Box 411
Freeport, N.Y. 11520
(516) 378-5181

Freeport Chamber of Commerce
300 Woodcledft Avenue
Freeport, NY 11520
Phone: (516) 223-8840
Fax: (516) 223-1211
freeportchamber@juno.com

Nantucket Shark Tournament
Nantucket Angler's Club
1 New Whale Lane
Nantucket, MA 02554
508-228-2299
nantucket.angler2@verizon.net

Nantucket Island Chamber of Commerce
Zero Main Street - 2nd Floor
Nantucket, MA 02554
Tel: 508-228-1700
Fax: 508-325-4925
info@nantucketchamber.org

Sarasota Shark Tournament

Sarasota Chamber of Commerce
1945 Fruitville Road
Sarasota, FL 34236
(941) 955-2508
(941) 366-5621

St. George Island Shark Tournament, Florida

Franklin County Board of County Commissioners
Commissioner Noah Lockley, Jr.: noah@franklincountyflorida.com
Commissioner Joseph Parrish: smokey@franklincountyflorida.com
Commissioner G. Russell Crofton: russell@franklincountyflorida.com
Commissioner Cheryl Sanders: cheryl@franklincountyflorida.com
Commissioner Bevin Putnal: bevin@franklincountyflorida.com

Outcast Shark Tournament, Pensacola Florida

Pensacola Chamber of Commerce
117 West Garden Street
Pensacola, FL 32502
850.438.4081
Fax: 850.438.6369



Posted By: Peter Jones

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/12/08 04:45 PM

Word is already out about what was initially announced, and a major damage limitation exercise is needed if in fact it was changed. But given the advance publicity I'm afraid that if even a single shark is caught that will be very damaging.

This was an extraordinarily inept thing to do. Especially since from the very short notice period given when there are few tourists here it is obviously intended for the benefit of the local population of boat owners and "marine people". We are telling the world that given our preference we go out and catch sharks. Yes, we WILL get added to the Elbert's list.
Posted By: SP Daily

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/12/08 04:47 PM

The sky is falling!!! The sky is falling!!!
Posted By: Peter Jones

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/12/08 05:11 PM

Jesse - do you know how much visiting diver numbers have dropped? Go and ask some of the dive operators. We need an initiative such as this like a hole in the head.
Posted By: SP Daily

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/12/08 05:24 PM

By "initiative" are you referring to the US-only list of shark tournaments?
And didn't the local shark tournament get canceled/changed to an open type tournament? So what do you want done now? No fishing tournaments at all?
Posted By: Peter Jones

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/12/08 05:38 PM

It has been suggested that only the name of the local tournament has been changed, not the substance. I hope you're right that in fact they won't now be catching sharks.
Posted By: SP Daily

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/12/08 05:44 PM

If a shark grabs the bait put out for any other species, then a shark may be caught...just like any tournament world-wide.
Posted By: t42

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/12/08 06:11 PM

No more panades??
Posted By: Bill Mc Ghee

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/12/08 06:58 PM

"just like any tournament world-wide"

Not quite Jesse! Fish tournaments are run as species specific. Billfish, Wahoo, Tuna etc.

The methods used are for the most part lure/bait trolling.These specific species require a fast moving ( sometimes up to 12knots)trolled bait.Sharks are not prone to strike at baits moving fast through the water.therefore the chance of picking up a shark of any size is almost eliminated. It can happen but with very rare chance.

Shark fishing, on the other hand ,is a Chum based method and slow to no moving bait. A shark is a opertunity eater and not prone to chase bait for a meal.If this tournament is in fact one that is targeting Deep sea pelagics it is unlikly for a boat to bring in shark unless they were specificly targeted.
Posted By: elbert

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/12/08 07:31 PM

Jess I agree with Bill and would like to add that a 'Prize' is being given for a dead Shark.
Different ball game.
Posted By: elbert

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/12/08 07:34 PM

The boats will be coming back this afternoon...lets go see
Posted By: Peter Jones

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/12/08 08:26 PM

Please take photos if appropriate.
Posted By: SP Daily

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/12/08 08:29 PM

Lots of dead shark photos posted on the internet will help to make your point.
Posted By: Beckster

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/13/08 01:11 AM

Elbert! were you able to take pictures of the catch the boats brought back?

I'm interested to see how many unfortunate sharks were Killed in the name of "Sports Fishing". I whole heartedly agree on you position that this is unnecessary and reflects badly on the Island."Catch and release" is the only way to enjoy the sport of fishing. and I go further than just sharks.
Posted By: Peter Jones

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/13/08 01:27 AM

I watched for a while as some of the boats came back. I saw seven dead fish, all bar two of them sharks. I have some photos and will post any that seem reasonable - haven't looked at them yet.

This was indeed a shark fishing tournament under another name.
Posted By: jilco

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/13/08 01:57 AM

I only saw 2 sharks also. This became a deep sea tournament. The 2 sharks I saw were cleaned and will be eaten. Food does not go to waste on San Pedro (except by the tourists because the portions at many restaurants are so huge).

Mark at Estelle's assured us that our GIANT breakfast burritos would not go to waste because he would give it to his dogs. smile
Posted By: elbert

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/13/08 02:44 PM

What the heck posts the photos Peter, I didn't make it to the weigh in.
try that http line from photobucket here
Posted By: elbert

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/16/08 03:03 PM

[Linked Image]
Hard to dispute
http://www.sanpedrosun.blogspot.com/
Posted By: KC Jayhawk

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/16/08 03:04 PM

That is sad and unnecessary.
Posted By: suecate

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/16/08 03:06 PM

We wont be stopping by that store this trip. Purchased items there in april not in november..
Posted By: Dutch

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/16/08 03:50 PM

The public outcry did no good. For those that feel strongly about this, the only recourse is to shop elsewhere...and to let them know why.
Posted By: elbert

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/16/08 03:51 PM

I believe this was sponsored by the Town board if i remember reading the article correctly.
Posted By: Dutch

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/16/08 04:01 PM

Elbert, the newspaper ad I saw had Captain Sharks name splashed all over it. I'm looking for it now and will add the link if/when I find it.
Posted By: ScubaLdy

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/16/08 04:04 PM

Capt. Sharks withdrew
Posted By: JZB

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/16/08 04:09 PM

Oct 9 Newspaper stated it was organized by Jenny Staines, sponsored by Captain Sharks, Giovanni's Plastic Signs and the Town Council.
Posted By: Dutch

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/16/08 04:19 PM

Thanks. They may have withdrawn, but you'll notice their banner in the background of the shark pic, draped over the Ambergris Diver's sign. The Town Council's sponsership is really troubling since they are supposed to represent San Pedro.
Posted By: elbert

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/16/08 04:21 PM

I think it was big of James to withdraw.
I'm trying to be as kind as I can and still raise an objection. Its all about change and learning. San Pedros roots are fishing, old timers didn't have to consider the things we do today. Their new generation has to reexamine what they have learned from what their parents did when the world was younger..
A lot of what happened here is unwitting, a lot has been learned and change will happen.
Posted By: Dutch

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/16/08 10:18 PM

I understand what you are saying Elbert. At least the meat was to be eaten, rather than the fin being cut off and the shark left to die. Belize does far more than it's share with designating so much of it's land and water territory as nature and reserves. The country is an excellent example of how to become and eco-tourism destination. I hope the fishing never stops...I love to catch them, but unless they will be eaten, back they go.
Posted By: 2Aggies

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/16/08 11:14 PM

As a diver I am curious as to what role Ambergris Divers had in the contest. They obviously allowed the banner to be hung on the railing. I will avoid taking my business to sponsors and after our trip a week ago we have decided to make AC at least one of our trips each year and maybe two.
Posted By: armandogonzalez

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/18/08 05:03 AM

come on elbert nothing wrong with a shark tournament.some times u must be quiet.
Posted By: Peter Jones

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/18/08 05:12 AM

Except that most species of sharks are now extremely endangered, and divers generally hope above all to see sharks. And if you follow the international diving press you will see that some areas known for shark fishing have already effectively been blacklisted for diving. If you want San Pedro to revert to being a fishing village and to drop diving as an offered activity that's fine, so long as you can justify your decision to the many people, Belizean and other, who have dedicated their lives and much money to the dive industry.
Posted By: Belize-N-Us

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/18/08 01:35 PM

"At least the meat was to be eaten,..."

Rebels in the African Congo kill gorillas and eat the meat. Does that justify the killing?

Crocodile meat is edible do you host croc killing tournaments?

Sea turtles were commonly eaten not too long ago.

I would bet that sometime during history people ate manatees. Want to open season on them too? They move real slow and will be easier to hunt.

These shark were killed for sport and the prospect of winning a little boat complete with photo in the paper. The fact that the meat was eaten does not lessen this atrocious act.

It's difficult to understand why the local media of an "eco-tourism" destination would promote this event rather than shine a critical spot light on it in condemation.

On one page they condem development because they want to "protect our environment" on the next page is a color photo of a "prize winning" bloodlied dead shark hanging on a rope with people smiling around it.
Posted By: ScubaLdy

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/18/08 04:42 PM

Yesterday I met a couple of Holy Cross teachers as they were crossing the bridge. I asked them how they liked the shark meat. They didn't know what I was talking about. I told them and they said, "Oh, maybe next week? There was no school yesterday."
Humm - I read that the shark was being cut up and people were lined up to get the meat. What happened about the statement that the meat would go to the school?
Posted By: Amanda Syme

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/18/08 04:52 PM

Yes, manatee an turtle were both regularly eaten delicacies here on the island in the not so distant past.

Take a look at the photo in the Ambergris Today - 25 years ago to see other creatures that were killed in the not so distant past.

I don't get moose hunting. But I am not going to boycott the places that do it.

I suppose duck hunting is a great sport - but I don't like eating duck.

Fox hunting is still a popular sport.

Now bullfighting - there is a subject you could sink your teeth into.

And dog and cock fighting.

Don't start acting like Belize is exclusively the only area where such activities occur.
Posted By: JZB

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/18/08 05:27 PM

I will actively boycott any business that has been moose hunting on this island! How dare they! laugh
Posted By: Pedro1

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/18/08 05:36 PM

Wow -Who knew Canadians had a sense of humour!!!!
Posted By: Belize-N-Us

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/18/08 05:45 PM

Come on Amanda that wasn't an attack on Belize. Only a statement about those who try to justify this behavior, which I'm sure is a small number of people there.

I don't hunt at all and I would NEVER attend a bull, dog or cock fight. Here in the US dog and cock fighting is illegal in ALL states now that Louisianna finally has come around regarding cock fighting.

No one here has tried to suggest that AC is exclusively participating in such acts. Such activities occur world wide, but a major differnce is that AC in particular being a location that thrives exclusively on tourism / "eco-tourism" should be far less tolerant of such activies. AC residents should be opposed to this activity as it hurts the "eco-tourism" image and therefore hurts their very livelyhoods.

Yes some locals fish for a living but who do you think they sell their fish to? The places that serve tourist. I am not aware of Belize having any shark meat export businesses.




Posted By: sweetjane

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/18/08 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by Amanda Syme
Don't start acting like Belize is exclusively the only area where such activities occur.


with all due respect, amanda, does that justify it? i've stayed out of this, but that quote doesn't sit right, regardless of what the topic is.
Posted By: collyk

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/18/08 06:17 PM

I don't think this is an animal welfare issue. This is an environmental issue. No one would argue that the reef is not very important. Anyone who knows anything about life cycles understands that without apex predators such as many shark species (and crocodiles), other important species rapidly disappear.

It is unfortunate that a country that promotes itself as an eco tourism destination allows all sorts of things to continue. I'm thinking iguana egg sucking competitions, wholesale slaughter of parrots by citrus farmers, shark fishing, crocodile feeding, land fills, clearing of mangroves etc.

Belize is a young country and its position as an eco tourism destination is even younger. It has made huge efforts to protect the environment and it still has some way to go. Personally, I think Belize is doing a pretty damned good job. It is all well and fine saying 'in my country they do this and in my country they do that' but that means twaddle in reality.

If you want to use the USA as an example, don't forget that shark fishing tournaments are very common there, while dog and cock fighting may be illegal they are also extremely common. I am in the rural south of the USA right now and I can tell you that the average dog I see here makes the stray beach dogs in San Pedro look positively vital. I'm not even going to mention the endless roadkill dogs along the road (whoops I've already mentioned them). Didn't someone once say that those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones?- or something like that.

If you are an individual who happens to be concerned about shark fishing tournaments in Belize, the best thing you could do is to fund, organise or participate in an education programme about the importance of sharks to the Mesoamerican Reef.
Posted By: JZB

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/18/08 06:47 PM

Twaddle? I love it.

Pedro, go suck an iguana egg!!!
Posted By: Amanda Syme

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/18/08 07:04 PM

Okay, everybody that does not eat any animal products - we would like to hear from you now.

Posted By: skippy

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/18/08 07:45 PM

I want to step back from my earlier post about making it illegal, in that if this is a traditional Belizean practice and only practiced by them, it probably isn't too detrimental even with today's technologies. But if fleets of American and Mexican fishing mega-yachts and the attendant fishing toys they have on board ever show up for these tournaments, decimation could easily occur. Amanda's point is well taken.

Posted By: Amanda Syme

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/18/08 07:52 PM

Thanks for understanding what I am trying to get across without being shot at!
Posted By: Dutch

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/18/08 08:41 PM

BNU - Well, since it was my comment that set your ass on fire, let me try to explain...First, I said that the shark tournament was a bad thing, and that those who felt strongly about it being wrong should let the sponsers know, and shop elsewhere. Then Elbert reminded me that San Pedro began as a fishing village, and many residents have their roots in fishing. It takes time to change behavior. I then mentioned that I understood his point, and that AT LEAST the shark was to be eaten rather then simply killed for a fin or left to rot. Would I eat shark meat, nope, didn't say that. Would I watch a dog fight, nope. Cock fight, nope. I would root for the bull at a bullfight. I further mentioned that Belize is wonderful about it's preservation of habitat. I don't understand what part of what I said lit the match. Please explain so I can avoid it in the future.
Posted By: Dutch

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/18/08 10:20 PM

Colly, Why didn't you mention British fox hunting as an example. I know that it has now been banned in England, but both cockfighting and dogfighting are illegal in every state and a felony in almost every state. Animal cruelty in any form is a felony in nearly every state now. Federal law applies when any part of the illegal activity crosses state lines, and the federal penalties are very harsh...ask Micheal Vick, an American Football player who is now in prison. I lived in the rural south for several years. To say the dog fighting and cock fighting are 'extremly common' is an exageration to say the least. They do happen in some areas, and it's disgusting. ENDLESS road kill dogs? You make it sound as though the roads are paved with dead dogs.

The AVERAGE dog, or the average stray (homeless) dog makes the beach dogs look vital?. Dogs do get hit, sadly. I suspect it would be a common sight on AC if golf carts moved any faster. It is far more common to see a deer hit, and VERY common to see oppossum hit, but that's because they are common, and frankly, are not smart enough to know about roads.

I agree, and have said that Belize sets a great example of conservation and has set aside more than it's fair share of land and water resources for nature reserves. Again, bashing the US with extreme exagerations about all the starving dogs and countless road kill dogs hardly bolster your arguments.
Posted By: collyk

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/19/08 12:52 AM

Because Britain hadn't been held up as an example. Dog fighting in particular is very common in the USA. It is also very common in parts of the UK, mainly in rural areas. Much of the IRA's activity was funded by dog fighting both in the UK and the USA.

Watch the Panorama documentary on dog fighting in the UK, which you can download on the internet for more information. I am well aware of Michael Vicks, but he is the tip of the iceberg. I spent much of my professional career as an expert to the UK courts on fighting and dangerous dogs, so I am pretty well versed. If you don't think dog fighting is rampant in the USA, you are kidding yourself. Shockingly rampant.

I saw 7 road kill dogs in 90 minutes of road travel in GA yesterday (no deer, 7 possum). Well our definition of the term 'rampant' might be different. I know without a doubt that I could find a dog fight in GA, Fla, or Texas to attend this weekend without much effort.

How many dogs and cats were killed because they were surplus to requirements in the USA? Sorry Dutch, but either you are kidding yourself, or not reading the facts. The USA, from international perspectives (and I have lectured and worked on welfare professionally internationally for 20 years) is appalling I'm afraid in terms of animal welfare.

I just find it irritating when those with shite on their own doorstep don't bother to clean up their own mess before commenting on other's. The USA cannot, in any way, hold itself up as an example of good animal welfare practice. To pretend otherwise is utter hypocricy.

There are other 'western' countries with worse records (Spain comes to mind), but for such a wealthy and 'informed' country, the USA's animal welfare record is not very good.

You can be as defensive as you like but the facts are that the USA has a poor animal welfare record, as do many other countries. Please think about cleaning the sh*t on your own doorstep before telling other's what they should be doing.
Posted By: Dutch

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/19/08 01:26 AM

Far too many dogs and cats are euthanized each year, I have never owned a pet that was not spayed or neutered. I think that it should be very expensive to get a breeders license in the US until and unless we can find homes for those animals. The need to have a certain breed of dog or cat should be secondary to the fact that for every kitten or puppy born in a breeders stable, a kitten or puppy in a shelter will die. It's a zero sum game. The estimates are that 3-4 million dogs and cats are euthanzed in the US each year. That's horrible...but then that's not what anyone was discussing.

I volunteered in a no-kill shelter, so I've seen some pretty sad examples too. I know there is shit on my doorstep, just wanted to remind your that there's a turd on yours as well, and I share your irritation.

Just FYI, if you were in GA, you'd NEVER see a dear on the side of the road, because someone's going to pick it up and have venison.

The entire point of my note was that you exagerated every single compaint about the US whilst ignoring your own turd. I wasn't being defensive, I was calling BS. "Dog and Cockfights are EXTREMELY common", "the AVERAGE dog I see here makes the stray beach dogs in San Pedro look positively vital", ENDLESS ROADKILL DOGS.

Unlike you, I didn't resort to a personal attack, I merely called your excessive hyperbole into question. Also, where did I tell ANYONE ANYWHERE what they should be doing?

I admire the work you do with SAGA, but that doesn't mean that every word that drops out of your mouth about animals is a golden nugget. You exagerated, I called you on it, and you got pissed. Bummer.
Posted By: collyk

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/19/08 01:56 AM

Obviously Dutch, you haven't spent much time in rural Georgia. I was raised in Georgia and visit regularly. I don't work with SAGA particularly although I do help them on occasion, when I am able and I can't understand why you even brought SAGA into this debate.

Roadkill dogs in rural Georgia are endless in my experience - I've never experienced so many dead dogs on the side of the road anywhere else in the world. I've also never seen so many abandoned and starving dogs. That said, I haven't spent much time in developing countries other than Belize and some in Eastern Europe. Georgia is far worse than anything I experienced in Eastern Europe. Dog fighting in Georgia as well as cock fighting is common as well as many other types of animal baiting using dogs. I have no problem finding either if I wish to attend as a spectator. I am not sure why you are denying that. Dog fighting is pretty common all over the southern USA. As far as I am aware, it is a significant problem all over the USA. I'm sorry that I have upset you by telling you my own experiences in the part of the USA I know best. I wasn't aware that I had made personal attacks and as I deplore that behaviour, so I apologise for any of that I may have unwittingly participated in. I don't recall mentioning deer. Please do tell me about the turds on my own doorstep that I am not addressing and I will certainly do my best to do so.

I don't think that every word that drops out of my mouth is a golden nugget and am unsure why you made that statement, but I would add that I worked, lectured and educated internationally in animal welfare for nearly 20 years, both in Europe, North America and Asia. It was my job to know these things. I am pretty well informed and while I don't want to bore people here with specifics, if you would like to contact me by PM to get further information about animal welfare internationally, I'd be more than happy to share it with you.

This is all a moot point and as often happens when people criticize Belize but are not prepared to take on criticism about their own country. Belize does a damned fine job for a new and developing country. Sadly, the USA, with all of its wealth, is not considered by others a country with a great animal welfare or environmental record internationally. I'm sorry if you don't like hearing that.

I can't see any point in continuing this conversation here unless you have some new facts to add. Please do feel free to PM me if you would like to discuss this further.

"The blood sport that often uses pit bulls trained to fight is illegal in all 50 states, but can be found across the country.
The phenomenon is increasing. It was very prevalent in the South now it's all over, in Chicago, New York, Baltimore, New York, big in Indiana, big in Wisconsin," said Michael Roach, director of field service and investigation for the Anti-Cruelty Society of Chicago.

"There are three levels of dog fighting: the street fighting level where other crimes are involved such as drugs, weapons, the hobby level and the professional level," Roach told AFP.

Bets can reach 20,000 to 30,000 dollars for bouts organized on the street and up to half a million dollars for more elaborate dog fights overseen by illegal breeders. There are some 20,000 to 40,000 dog fight fans in the United States, who operate underground and use the Internet to help organize events."

http://www.bio-medicine.org/medicin...-3A-Bloody--Illegal-and-Booming-23081-1/
Posted By: Dutch

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/19/08 02:37 AM

I only mentioned SAGA because you had sent out a note on the Neuter and Release program. I think SAGA is a great cause, and is remarkable because of it's support compared to the population of the island. In short, I was trying to say something nice to you. Even your figures quoted in your note, "There are some 20,000 to 40,000 dog fight fans in the United States", point out the true size of the problem. The US has a population of 320 million. A minimum of 40,000 will be at each NFL game played in the US tomorrow. I admit it's still too many. The only thing I said about GA was that a deer wouldn't stay on the road long...not one word about dogs.

As for me, I DID NOT critize Belize in anyway. You seem to read things selectively.

I have no beef with you, simply wanted the exagerations pointed out. That's all.
Posted By: collyk

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/19/08 02:53 AM

God this is boring me and I again request that you take it to PM. When did I bring up neuter and release on this forum (I don't support TNR for dogs in San Pedro)? If you insist on questioning me publicly, I shall be forced to respond publicly and apologise to those that are not interested.

Those figures were not mine. I quoted a source on number of dog fight fans. I'm not sure how I can exaggerate someone else's figures. The figure of 20,000 - 40,000 dog fighting fans is a pretty authoritative figure from the Humane Society of the USA "While some 40,000 people participate in organized rings with high-stakes betting, The HSUS estimates that at least another 100,000 fight dogs informally for the chance to win a few bucks and bragging rights." http://www.hsus.org/acf/news/dogfighting_national_epidemic_1.html

Still not sure how deer came into the topic. I would appreciate you not accusing me of exaggerating as I am not. If you have evidence of my exaggerations, please post them. Otherwise, please take this to private message or stop making unfounded personal accusations about the validity of my statements.

My point is that Belize is doing a good job. They still have some way to go. Many other countries, including the USA, don't have great reputations in terms of shark fishing or the protection of other species. I oppose sport fishing of sharks but support Belize's efforts in everything they do to protect their environment.
Posted By: Dutch

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/19/08 03:03 AM

Will send PM.
Posted By: collyk

Re: San Pedro Shark Tournament - 10/19/08 04:27 AM

Dutch,

You have sent me a private message that is insulting and abusive and then blocked my response. It seems I am on ignore, which may well mean that you cannot see this. I'm not sure what your game is, but I am not impressed. It is a shame you have turned a reasonable discussion on shark tournaments in Belize into something a bit weird.

In your message you made false statements about me, which I am unable to refute because of this. While you may not be able to see this message because you have blocked me, others may. Be warned. In the several years I have posted on this board, I haven never encountered this sort of behaviour before.
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