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Stupid and rich / a bad combination

Posted By: Belize-N-Us

Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 02:05 PM

A luxury yacht is anchored on the reef right in front of San Pedro Town tonight and the owner – a man from Cancun is detained by San Pedro Police. The vessel which flies a Bermudan flag was first seen this morning and authorities responded quickly including the San Pedro Police, Hol Chan Marine Reserve and the Department of Environment. The boat captain forty nine year old Salvador Villerias Eckart who is a resident of Acapulco, Mexico but has been living in Cancun. According to authorities the boat captain is being detained by DOE following their investigation and an assessment of the damage on the reef.

Posted By: SimonB

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 02:29 PM

http://www.7newsbelize.com/sstory.php?nid=13732
Posted By: Relaxed

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 02:39 PM

How many feet of water was the anchor in?
Posted By: Sally1

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 02:45 PM

The pictures of the anchor and the line sitting on the reef are sickening.
Posted By: elbert

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 03:06 PM

I watched him run on top of the reef and have to back off after he realized it wasn't a channel. just directly in front of town. he missed the cut and was about 300 yards to the north of it.
Posted By: Marty

Luxury Yacht Drops Anchor on San Pedro Reef - 04/08/09 03:12 PM

A luxury yacht is anchored on the reef right in front of San Pedro Town tonight and the owner – a man from Cancun is detained by San Pedro Police. The vessel which flies a Bermudan flag was first seen this morning and authorities responded quickly including the San Pedro Police, Hol Chan Marine Reserve and the Department of Environment. The boat captain forty nine year old Salvador Villerias Eckart who is a resident of Acapulco, Mexico but has been living in Cancun. According to authorities the boat captain is being detained by DOE following their investigation and an assessment of the damage on the reef.

We spoke with Miguel Alamilla, a Fisheries Officer and the Manager of Hol Chan Marine Reserve. The photos of the vessel were provided by the San Pedro Sun newspaper.

Miguel Alamilla, Hol Chan Marine Reserve
“We need to quantify the damage, the extent of the damage, and then the court is going to decide from there on what is going to happen.”

Jacqueline Godwin,
And what you say is the initial reports coming from divers, what have they actually seen underwater?

Miguel Alamilla,
“They reported extensive damage because it has a metal chain, from the anchor there is a metal chain going all the way to the boat and the metal chain is dragging on the bottom of the coral reef and there is a strong north wind and the boat is swaying back and forth and the anchor keeps dragging on the reef.”

Jacqueline Godwin,
And no doubt because this is a popular dive spot, this is of concern to you guys.

Miguel Alamilla,
“Well the entire reef is of concern and the entire four reefs in front of Ambergris Caye are dive sites I would say, that whole area is used by scuba divers to dive there; several dive sites all along the reef in front of Ambergris Caye.
I hope this doesn’t occur again. We work very closely with the tour operators, tour guides here on the island and they were the ones who notified us very early that this has happened and this is a foreign vessel and we don’t have much outreach out to the foreign navigation but it is not something that occurs very frequently. I think the last one we had was several years ago. Just to clarify, this did not happen inside the marine reserve. This is in front of San Pedro Town. The nearest reserve which is Hol Chan is about three miles away.”

And while the Department of Environment continues to investigate, it is not certain when the vessel will be removed in a manner which will prevent further damage to the reef. Salvador Villerias Eckart reportedly told police he had to drop his anchor in the reef after a rope got tangled in one of the propellers and so basically he had to use the anchor as a brake to avoid running over the reef. As we understand while the rope was freed from the propeller the boat remained anchored at the location. According to the police the boat captain told them that he arrived very early this morning and was not aware of any damage to the reef.

Following the relevant assessment and investigation it is expected that the boat captain will be charged. Just how much? Well that depends on the severity of the damage done to the reef.

Channel 7
Posted By: papashine

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 03:13 PM

You think just maybe that your subject line is a wee bit heavy?
I'm sure that you do not get to be a captain of a yacht worth more then a few dollars by being stupid, the guy had a very bad day, and now I'm sure his boss is going to pay for it.
Posted By: Relaxed

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 03:18 PM

What is the name of the ship?
Posted By: collyk

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 03:40 PM

Azteca.
Posted By: Otteralum

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 03:43 PM

his excuse doesn't seem plausible (from marty's thread on topic). Any avid boaters care to comment on the validity of his excuse??
Posted By: Relaxed

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 03:46 PM

Well anything is possible, hard to believe the captain hit the reef intentionally, something obviously went very wrong. Need to investigate the prop story.
Posted By: sweetjane

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 03:59 PM

ok, so the captain knew he was coming to AC, but no one told him about, or he didn't notice, the enormous reef in front of him? ok, maybe a rope did get tangled. but when they freed the rope, they didn't remove the anchor either?

does anyone else know for sure: i heard the last yacht (the one yrs ago) to 'accidentally' moor on the reef, causing damage, was never fined nor cited - he just left. anyone know if there's any truth to that?
Posted By: sweetjane

Re: Luxury Yacht Drops Anchor on San Pedro Reef - 04/08/09 04:04 PM

duplicate posting: see "rich & stupid".
Posted By: SimonB

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 04:04 PM

It's not the first time:

//ambergriscaye.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/175253/Luxury_Yacht_Damages_Reef.html#Post175253
Posted By: Belize-N-Us

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 04:04 PM


You're right papa maybe I was a bit harsh.

How about "Intelligent, fully competent and highly skilled yacht captain grinds multi-million dollar ship into a world herritage ecologic reef during a severe clear weather day then corrects his "bad day" mistake by intangling rope in the propellers and dropping anchor on this precious resource"

Now......that's is much better!

Thanks papa for reminding me what a jerk I am.


Posted By: Relaxed

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 04:04 PM

http://www.superyachttimes.com/yachts/details/1774/
Posted By: Relaxed

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 04:05 PM

Now, about bow thrusters...................
Posted By: Tracker

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 04:10 PM

Another reason we should have a port authority office here in A/C
Posted By: Relaxed

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 04:29 PM

Actually what is needed is a proper mooring, set up in an appropriate location to avoid this type of accident. Possibly even a large marina. Since this is a port of entry. I doubt this problem will ever go away.
Posted By: Belize-N-Us

Re: Luxury Yacht Drops Anchor on San Pedro Reef - 04/08/09 04:29 PM


No, no sweetjane, papashine pointed out the error of my ways. I've decided to change my title to this:

"Intelligent, fully competent and highly skilled yacht captain grinds multi-million dollar ship into a world herritage ecologic reef during a severe clear weather day then corrects his "bad day" mistake by intangling rope in the propellers and dropping anchor on this precious resource"
Posted By: sweetjane

Re: Luxury Yacht Drops Anchor on San Pedro Reef - 04/08/09 04:32 PM

hey, tommy, don't look at me - i was with you on the original title! cool
Posted By: sweetjane

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by sweetjane
does anyone else know for sure: i heard the last yacht (the one yrs ago) to 'accidentally' moor on the reef, causing damage, was never fined nor cited - he just left. anyone know if there's any truth to that?


ok, so my answer is "YES" it is true, and "NO", he paid no fine?
Posted By: SP Daily

Re: Luxury Yacht Drops Anchor on San Pedro Reef - 04/08/09 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by Belize-N-Us

"Intelligent, fully competent and highly skilled yacht captain grinds multi-million dollar ship into a world herritage ecologic reef during a severe clear weather day then corrects his "bad day" mistake by intangling rope in the propellers and dropping anchor on this precious resource"

Please disclose your source for this "statement of fact". Where did you discover that the vessel hit the reef? He claims that he lost control and used his anchors to prevent collision with the reef. All damage was from the anchors. No evidence of the yacht striking the reef.
Posted By: Belize-N-Us

Re: Luxury Yacht Drops Anchor on San Pedro Reef - 04/08/09 04:53 PM

jesse, you are the investigative reporter aren't you?

To answer your question.....Elbert reports being eye witness to the reef grinding referred to in my (obvious to everyone but you) tongue in cheek comment. It was certainly NOT a "statement of fact"

Are you defending this captain?

Posted By: pugwash

Re: Luxury Yacht Drops Anchor on San Pedro Reef - 04/08/09 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by Belize-N-Us
jesse, you are the investigative reporter aren't you?


This is where my comment was before jesse edited it: he has a habit of doing things like that....perhaps I should ban him for a day?
Posted By: SP Daily

Re: Luxury Yacht Drops Anchor on San Pedro Reef - 04/08/09 04:57 PM

No, I am a publisher. I am curious about your seemingly false statement about the reef damage. I would expect a doctor would be more concerned about his ethics, even on a message board.
Posted By: Belize-N-Us

Re: Luxury Yacht Drops Anchor on San Pedro Reef - 04/08/09 05:00 PM


jesse, are we going to start this BS long distance spitting match again?

My personal opinions on a message board and my professional medical ethics have absolutely no relationship what so ever.
Posted By: Belize-N-Us

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 05:03 PM

I've asked Marty to combine this topic with his.
Posted By: SP Daily

Re: Luxury Yacht Drops Anchor on San Pedro Reef - 04/08/09 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by Belize-N-Us

Are you defending this captain?

Yes, I am defending the captain who's being accused of lying by a bunch of message boarders who have absolutely no facts to support
them.
Posted By: papashine

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 05:13 PM

The only person on this board that called you a jerk is yourself! I merely pointed out that since this incident just happened we might want to get the full report before we go about publicly cussing people out. I don't know or profess to know what occured, but, the intial report says he came in last night, was it dark out?, has he been here before?, the cut can be hard to navigate with a ship as large as his, You may be an expert in your chosen field but you have just shown that you are a prejudgemental pompass a--! Give your head a shake and prescibe yourself a valium
Posted By: sweetjane

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 05:30 PM

technically, it states "very early this morning". and yes, technically, the ship never hit the reef.
Posted By: Belize-N-Us

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 05:31 PM


I don't have to be very prejudgemental to make a statement about a captain of a multi-million dollar yacht entangling rope in props, anchoring on a world herritage reef and possibly even grounding this multi-million dollar yacht causing irreparable damage to the main source of income for an entire country!!!!!!!!!

I think YOU are the pompass ASS for defending this idiot regardless of the claimed events that lead to this inexcusable situation.

I'll leave the perscription medication taking to you!!

PS: I may be coming to the island this or next Saturday if you care to meet.
Posted By: Peter Jones

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by Relaxed
Actually what is needed is a proper mooring

There used to be one, near Tuffy dive site by the main San Pedro channel. A large concrete block with integral hoop for securing a line is still there. It was tipped over 30° by Hurricane Dean but I should think is still usable. The whole time I've lived in SP there hasn't been a mooring attached to it, but it wouldn't be difficult to reattach a rope and buoy.

Of course, there would have to be a monitored radio service and people prepared to run tenders out to a boat mooring there. And it would only be usable in calm conditions.

On the controversy, we really have no idea what the facts are and it would be foolish to pre-judge. But sadly "rich" and "arrogant" often go together. No idea whether it does in this case, of course.
Posted By: Belize-N-Us

Re: Luxury Yacht Drops Anchor on San Pedro Reef - 04/08/09 05:40 PM


I never said he lied. I said he was "stupid".

I'll add incompetent to that as well.

Facts # 1 Multi-multi-multi-million dollar yacht
# 2 anchored to and has caused destruction to a world herritage reef which is the main source of income for an entire country.

Any other "facts" you want to add will sound like nothing short of lame excuses to me.

Posted By: bcsailer

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 05:50 PM

a boat like that would have all latest equipment radar gps depth sounder alarms ect.i think what happened here is the captain fell a sleep at he helm, hit he reef resulting in panic tossed out a rear anchor and reversed into the line tangling the props. there is no excuse for a boat that size hitting anything they have large screens that show the entire ocean floor as well as charts that every vessel must have. this is only a suggestion as i was not there however i have sailed for over 30 years. the belize gov. should should make it unlawfull for vessel larger than 40' to come any closer than 1/2 mile of that reef.
Posted By: Peter Jones

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 05:52 PM

That's pretty well what happened with the container ship that hit the reef down south a few months ago. Inexcusable.
Posted By: papashine

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 05:53 PM

Investigation..we don't need no stinking investigation the BNUS posse will just hang im all and let God sort them out.
And I really do not care to meet you and couldn't care a less when you might or might not come down to "grace us all with your presence."
Posted By: sweetjane

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by bcsailer
a boat like that would have all latest equipment radar gps depth sounder alarms ect.i think what happened here is the captain fell a sleep at he helm, hit he reef resulting in panic tossed out a rear anchor and reversed into the line tangling the props. there is no excuse for a boat that size hitting anything they have large screens that show the entire ocean floor as well as charts that every vessel must have. this is only a suggestion as i was not there however i have sailed for over 30 years. the belize gov. should should make it unlawfull for vessel larger than 40' to come any closer than 1/2 mile of that reef.


bickering and BS aside, and i don;t know nuthin', but the quote above was a bit what i was thinking...
Posted By: carbunkletrumpet

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 06:17 PM

Here are a couple ideas rather than having a school yard fight.
How about Belize puts a harbor pilot on San Pedro and they can lead/steer any boat that any boat that wishes to come inside the reef.
Secondly we make the fine for damaging the reef so damn high that it gets people's attention.

Posted By: SP Daily

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 06:21 PM

"WE"??? What authority is that?
Posted By: sweetjane

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 06:33 PM

the carbunkle, beer & BACON appreciation society?
Posted By: carbunkletrumpet

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 06:37 PM

lol - you left out an occasional cigar.

Jessie you know what I mean, make that fine hurt and gets peoples attention.
Posted By: deadserious

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 06:41 PM

Jesse... how would you respond if the owner of the yacht were the developer of South Beach instead of the richest man in Mexico.
Posted By: sweetjane

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by carbunkletrumpet
make that fine hurt and gets peoples attention.


this part i can agree with...

(then 'they' can use the fine money to subsidize those solar powered golf cart charging stations up & down the island. wink )
Posted By: SP Daily

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 06:42 PM

Who's gonna head up the lynch party?
Posted By: Relaxed

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 06:51 PM

This thread is getting out there..........
Posted By: champion

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 06:54 PM

The next thing I bet I hear is the family of the poor skydiver who's chute didn't open a couple years ago is resposible for reef damage. I don't believe the captain did anything on purpose. It was an accident. I also believe he did all that he could to prevent any damage to the reef or the ship. What were the sea conditions? Did he make mistakes? who knows at this point. Name calling and enuendo at this point is harsh. Wait and see the outcome of the investigation. Yes Jesse, sounds like Hang Em High!
Posted By: krehfish

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 07:03 PM

Well Champion, that's the difference between now and, say 40 years ago. There are no accidents anymore. It's always someone's fault. Check your insurance rates.
Posted By: SP Daily

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 07:05 PM

You're talking US, right?
Posted By: sweetjane

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 07:05 PM

ease up - nobody is hanging anybody.

now, so by what you are saying, if a guy driving a car, (drunk or not) accidentally hits a boy on a bike (with either the car, or it's anchor [poetic license]), and said boy gets injured, the driver is not responsible in any way, because it was an accident??? you say sorry to bother you; have a nice day?

just trying to get a handle on your viewpoint.
Posted By: SP Daily

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 07:09 PM

The incident is subject to investigation...the captain is under the gun...the owner may be responsible for monetary damages but is not "rich, stupid, evil, etc...etc...". The USians on here are amazing! Jumping to all kinds of radical conclusions without any facts! Glad I live Belize!
Posted By: krehfish

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 07:12 PM

Help me out here Jesse. How many registered users are there on this Board, and how many are "USians". You expecting an Armenian perspective?
Posted By: SP Daily

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 07:13 PM

Look down at the bottom of this page for the stats you are asking for.
Posted By: champion

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 07:24 PM

Sweets, nobody infered that there would be no fault found. And yes, usually in an accident someone would be found guilty of something. Ok, so the driver of the car doing 20 in a 25 mph zone hits the boy because the boy veered in his path suddenly is his fault? Is he guilty of driving on the street where the boy was riding his bike, YES. Is he the driver who hit the boy? YES. Is it his fault the boy hit a rut and fell into the path of the car? NO. Was the driver doing his best to observe the law with regard to the speed limit and conditions? YES. Is the driver going to be concerned for the boys health. YES. I am not saying that the ship and or captain isn't responsible for damages. Was the intent on purpose or was it accidental. Punishment should be meeted accordingly, after the investigation. I still maintain it was an accident. That doesn't mean some form of punishment should not be administered. But to what degree?
Posted By: papashine

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 07:36 PM

Well you know that a certain group of the US critics on the board have contibuted so well to the state of health found with the enviroment of the USA, that they just can't help but to tell little ole Belize what they should and should not do, after all where would they go for a vacation. Half of the anger I see raised on this subject comes stright from the hip with no real thought process involved.
Posted By: Katie Valk

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 08:06 PM

Accident or negligence, smart or stupid-it doesn't matter. They will be charged and fined for damages according to the methodology used to calculate the destruction and resulting economic loss.
Posted By: champion

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 08:28 PM

Good answer.
Posted By: JZB

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 09:43 PM

The boat has left Belize with no charges/fines (rumor has it)
Posted By: Belize-N-Us

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 10:15 PM

Well, well I guess I've sure got a lot of egg on my face now don't I?

Looks like jesse and papa were right all along. It was just a simple accident that could have happened to any other 100+ million dollar yacht captain.

Shucks, I'm just sorry that any of them had to get off the ship and go to the police station to explain themselves. Maybe next time the police can just interview them onboard thus saving them the hassel of coming in to town.

Well, I better go now and see if any of this egg will wash off of my over grown, egotistical, pompass ASS face!

papa, you must know some secrets about egg removal from face by now. What's your secret?
Posted By: 2MILESNORTHOFCUT

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by JZB
The boat has left Belize with no charges/fines (rumor has it)


Damn, And all this time I have been quiet on this subject waiting for all the facts to come out before I comment. mad

Posted By: TravelinMan1

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 10:40 PM

On the morning of the incident which from what I hear happened in the dark the wind was blowing hard away from shore and the seas were calm. A tangle of a rope in the prop with the wind would have kept him away from the reef for the most part and certainly with the use of thrusters he should have been able to stay off the reef and tend to the problem. Not saying he was on the reef but more importantly he should know not to drop anchor and in most cases as it has been in the past people and captains of large vessels think that because they are in Belize or whatever third world country they can basically, do whatever they want and nothing will happen. Based on the information I have heard the yacht was released and that is that. I guess they were right and they can do whatever they want. Seems like maybe they should also let the freighter go that ran aground I am sure that the captain could make something up as well.

This is not about a mistake or about what someone did or did not do it is about the damage that was caused by someone who never even set foot on this island and then just picked up his toys and left with no repercussions whatsoever.

In the end the sad part is that there are many ways to eliminate these problems we could have a harbour master and a monitored VHF channel to help with approaches and various other high tech toys to make sure everyone is completely aware of what they need to do. Or people who captain these vessels can accept the responsibility and buy the book for $29.00 USD that basically tells you exactly how to approach and enter the cut here.

It does not matter what facts or factors contributed to the incident what matters is that this island and the people of this country will get screwed. If it is not someone dropping sewage into the ocean or someone causing global warming then we can always count on large yacht owners to destroy the reef.

In my opinion we should just get a few thousand pounds of TNT and blast a hole the size of a cruise ship so they to can join in the fun.

The above statements were partially fact and partially sarcasm. It is up to you all to determine which was which!
Posted By: papashine

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 10:58 PM

Originally Posted by Belize-N-Us
Well, well I guess I've sure got a lot of egg on my face now don't I

papa, you must know some secrets about egg removal from face by now. What's your secret?


Try going out to a driving range, lay flat on your back and let people use your nose for a tee. If that doesn't work, in the future engage brain before keyboard.
Posted By: collyk

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 11:22 PM

It is awful and upsetting that this big boat came in and damaged the reef, but when I read who owned the yacht- the owner of the largest TV station in Mexico - I automatically assumed it would be quietly 'handled'. While I don't agree with this, it is the way of the world. The big media owners are the most powerful people in their respective countries (or in the case of Rupert Murdoch in other people's countries). No one messes with them. Maybe I've just become cynical but it didn't cross my mind that there would be any other outcome.
Posted By: champion

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/08/09 11:25 PM

I may be wrong but I suspect that some good reporters will be on this like flies on stink!

Who got what and how much was it?
Posted By: Freezer

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 12:40 AM

I have just read this entire thread and anyone that called anyone an ass for ANY reason is an ASS. People have opinions, period.

I cannot imagine that the captain of a multi-million dollar yacht is an idiot. Even if it seems obvious. On the other hand I cannot believe FOR WHATEVER REASON they will not be held responsible for the damage.

I am embarrassed with some of the correspondence on this thread. Truly

What the hell is wrong with you people (you know who I mean). Yes, this man that anchored on the reef was wrong, yes he should pay for the error. This is regardless of the reasons. No?
Posted By: seashell

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 12:42 AM

I might just as well jump on the assumptions band wagon. If indeed the yacht and its captain have left the island without having to pay any fines or recompense, I still suspect that money changed hands somewhere along the line. Not that any of that benefits the reef or the island or the islanders or the people of Belize . . .maybe one people, maybe two people.

Lynching? I could be up for that. Who are we lynching? Jesse??


Posted By: Ernie B

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 01:04 AM

Why not ? Makes about as much sence as Freezer's comment.
Posted By: SP Daily

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 01:41 AM

The yacht was taken to Belize City for further investigation and settlement. Any further "comments" should be directed to the Port of Belize and/or Dept. of the Environment and/or the Police Department.
Posted By: sweetjane

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 01:46 AM

(sorry. u r right. i deleted my post.)
Posted By: SP Daily

Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 02:33 AM

DAMAGE ASSESSMENT CONTINUES IN LUXURY SHIPPED ANCHORED IN FRONT OF SAN
PEDRO


Apr 8, 2009


Just how much damage was caused to the reef yesterday has still not
been made official. Preliminary assessment done by officers from the
Fisheries Department yesterday found that the damaged area measured forty
five by twenty five feet and because the damage was done by an anchor at
least thirty five percent of the corals in that area was damaged. Unlike
the damage caused by a ship running aground on the reef, the anchor had
less impact. The preliminary assessment has been handed over to the
Department of Environment and they will decide, after a full damage
assessment is complete, the cost of the damage. The luxury yacht anchored
on the reef crest just outside of San Pedro Town yesterday morning. As we
understand it, the ship that flew a Bermudian flag belongs to Mexican
National Recardo Benjamin Salinas Pliego the owner of Teve Azteca. At least
25 people were onboard the vessel at the time. The luxury yacht was removed
from the reef last night and the captain was immediately detained pending
the outcome of the damage assessment and other investigations that are
being carried out by the D.O.E and the fisheries department.
http://www.lovefm.com/ndisplay.php?nid=9873
Posted By: seashell

Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 02:55 AM

And why, pray tell, was my last post deleted?

All I said was that this thread should be moved to Chat.

I may also have mentioned that anyone deleting my posts should be lynched. smile
Posted By: reaper

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 03:00 AM

I'm sure the captain really wanted to scratch the bottom of his bosses expensive yacht and run aground on the reef, doing damage to both and causing such havoc on the message board...
Posted By: SimonB

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 03:05 AM

Jumping to conclusions, no posts have been deleted by any admins. Just moved as requested.
Posted By: SimonB

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 03:06 AM

The nerve!
Posted By: seashell

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 03:09 AM

Hmm . . .mayhap the thread was moved, but before it was removed, my post had been deleted. smile

Nice to see you Simon. Your new girl looks lovely. Oops, this is for the chat thread.
Posted By: Short

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 03:12 AM

That's what you get when you hire a Mexican!
Posted By: champion

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 03:48 AM

Short, I've got enough scotch in me now to think what you said was in fact funny! Something has to be funny about this.
Posted By: SimonB

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 04:30 AM

If you REALLY want to get pissed off:

http://sanpedrosun.blogspot.com/2009/04/yatch-anchors-on-reef.html
Posted By: papashine

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 04:57 AM

Is everybody naieve about what can happen anywhere let alone to the reef in front of Sanpedro, common give me a break, you have a destination that is number one in the aviation tourist pack and number one in the sailboat/motor yacht pack..we have so many people that come here every day that its impossible to fend off damage, anybody that thinks otherwise is just fooling themselves, all we can do is try to fend off the most obvious damages, believe me there are people who care and follow up on all the tresspasses, there are not many of you that can stand up to say that you did your part in standing up to similar distruction in your own country, otherwise most of the countries would be in pretty good shape, which they are not. So in my opinion well its good that people are concerned with the way the Belizeian people deal with there problems, what gives us the right to tell anybody what to do, what is right and what is wrong. I have lived here in Belize for quite awhile now and I know that the gov't is not tardy in levying any kind of fine or rebuke to people who damage there flora or fauna, the only help that they require is global education.. not for them but for everyone else who would visit here. In the words of someone from the 60's shit happens, doesn't mean its right but it still happens.
Posted By: ScubaLdy

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 05:09 AM

I just came on the board for the first time today and read all 8 pages of messages.
Ironic, but I spent all day today preparing a video to enter in an underwater photo contest. The incident that has been referred to I think happened about four years ago. Here is a copy of the narrative I recorded on my video.

I am going to show you 3 minutes of uninterrupted, unedited video that I was asked to shoot to be used as evidence of the devastating damage done to the reef by one boat in one night.

All of the white areas you are looking at are damaged corals.


A large boat came inside the barrier reef at San Pedro Town on Ambergris Caye in Belize, Central America.

The cuts in the reef that allow boats to cross into the lagoon are narrow and treacherous/

The lagoon is not deep enough to accommodate large vessels.

However, one evening one owner did manage to get his boat close enough to shore to come into town for some drinks.

At a bar he asked if there was anyone who could captain his boat so that he could get back to sea.

One man said he could – The man was not a captain – and he crashed into the reef.

.

The anchor caught on a coral head and came off the chain.

The boat drifted down the reef dragging the loose chain causing it to whip saw a wide swatch of broken coral in its wake.

When the owner was arrested he offered to pay cash on the spot if they would allow him to leave.

How can anyone assess the value of the damage done or how long it will take the reef to recover?

In true keystone cops scenario he was not held by any one of several agencies.

The various government agencies squabbled over which pocket the hefty fine would go into.

After three days the owner quietly said away from Belize.

Even the turtle can’t believe it!

I shot for a half an hour and had not covered all of the damage.
Posted By: Short

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 05:20 AM

DAMAGE ASSESSMENT CONTINUES IN LUXURY SHIPPED ANCHORED IN FRONT OF SAN PEDRO
April 08, 2009


Just how much damage was caused to the reef yesterday has still not been made official. Preliminary assessment done by officers from the Fisheries Department yesterday found that the damaged area measured forty five by twenty five feet and because the damage was done by an anchor at least thirty five percent of the corals in that area was damaged. Unlike the damage caused by a ship running aground on the reef, the anchor had less impact. The preliminary assessment has been handed over to the Department of Environment and they will decide, after a full damage assessment is complete, the cost of the damage. The luxury yacht anchored on the reef crest just outside of San Pedro Town yesterday morning. As we understand it, the ship that flew a Bermudian flag belongs to Mexican National Recardo Benjamin Salinas Pliego the owner of Teve Azteca. At least 25 people were onboard the vessel at the time. The luxury yacht was removed from the reef last night and the captain was immediately detained pending the outcome of the damage assessment and other investigations that are being carried out by the D.O.E and the fisheries department.

http://www.lovefm.com/ndisplay.php?nid=9873
Posted By: papashine

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 05:26 AM

Seems to me that justice will be served.......
Posted By: Marty

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 05:43 AM

Luxury Yacht “Azteca” anchored on the reef.

The heavy chain to which the anchor is attached damaged the fragile coral system.

Eckhart was escorted to the Police Station.


On Tuesday, April 7th, a three story, luxury yacht flying a Bermudan flag from the Caribbean was impounded and its captain detained after it anchored on the reef directly east of San Pedro Town. According to reports the vessel, named Azteca, dropped anchor within meters of the reef early Tuesday morning in a depth of about 35 feet of water. Tour operators immediately notified Hol Chan Marine Reserve who in turn contacted the relevant authorities. Law enforcement officers including members from the Department of Environment (DOE), San Pedro Police, Immigration, Customs and The Belize Coast Guard were dispatched to the area where the captain, 49-year-old Mexican, Salvador Villeras Eckart who resides in Cancun, Mexico was detained.

        Eckart told authorities that he was heading into Belizean waters a few miles off the reef when ropes got caught up in the propellers of the vessel. According to Eckart the engine on the vessel automatically shut down and the vessel took a turn for the reef. To avoid a direct impact on the reef, Eckart stated that they decided to use the anchors to bring the vessel to a stop. The anchors ripped through a large area of the reef before coming to a stand still, however a constant northeasterly wind kept moving the vessel moving in different locations causing further damage.

        Chief Environmentalist in the Department of Environment (DOE), Martin Alegria explained to The Sun that a prohibition to sail order was issued on the vessel after which it was taken to Port Authority Headquarters in Belize City. Azteca remains grounded at that location until the matter is settled. On Tuesday, DOE sent a team of technicians to assess the damage caused by the vessel which they will assess and calculate the damage in real dollars. Should the owners of the vessel refuse to settle the matter; it will be taken to court. 

        Unconfirmed reports allege that the yacht is owned by Ricardo Benjamín Salinas Pliego, considered one of the world’s richest men and owner of Azteca Television based in Mexico. The San Pedro Sun understands that Pliego and his family intended to stay in Belize for the Easter holiday after which he was scheduled to travel to Livingston, Guatemala.

San Pedro Sun

Posted By: Short

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 06:06 AM

Billionaire’s yacht damages coral reef

[Linked Image] In recent months two cargo ships, The WesterHaven and Caribe Mariner caused extensive damage when they ran aground on the reef and now there is a third case involving a luxury yacht that dropped its anchor on the reef on Monday night. A damage assessment has still not been concluded and Jose Sanchez followed the story today and found out some rather interesting and perplexing details.

Jose Sanchez

The family of Ricardo Salinas Pliego is listed on Forbes Magazine as the number one hundred and fifty-four top billionaire in the world. His net worth is estimated to be six point three billion dollars. Salinas Pliego is the owner of TV Azteca and his luxury yacht was cruising off the coast of San Pedro when it caused damage to the barrier reef. It is reported that Salinas was in Belizean waters on holiday.

Billy Leslie, President, Tour Guide Association
“We dispatched a second boat who came back and told us that yes the boat has an anchor in the water. We all know as boaters, that you never place an anchor on delicate coral reef ecosystem. I don’t care which part of the world you come to, when you take a captain exam to drive a boat you are thought not to place an anchor on a coral reef.”

Jose Sanchez
“They tell you not to even touch the reef with your finger”

Billy Leslie
“The reef is so delicate that we should not even touch it, we should not even brush sediments over it.”

Jose Sanchez
“You took some footage, right?”

Billy Leslie
“Yes, after noticing that he had dropped anchor, I quickly and immediately notified the Hol Chan Marine Reserve which represent the Fisheries Department, I notified the Belize Port Authority, I notified Mr. James Azueta of the Fisheries Department.”

The Fisheries Department sent out Miguel Alamilla who manages the Hol Chan Marine Reserve to do a preliminary investigation of the grounding.

Miguel Alamilla, Manager, Hol Chan Marine Reserve
“We assembled a team to go out there and look at what was happening. We verified that actually there was a large vessel anchored on the fore reef about fifty feet deep outside the reef in front of Ambergris Caye.

Jose Sanchez
“Did you learn how that ship got lodged on the reef?”

Miguel Alamilla
“Well yes, the captain threw the anchor on the reef and that’s how it got lodged. According to the captain, we interviewed the captain and he said that he was travelling along navigating and a rope got tangled into his propeller and the only option was to drop his anchor or he would have ended up on the reef crest.”

Billy Leslie
“Looking at the footage you could see how the humongous chain is just breaking away live coral. We just recently got a report in which our coral reef reports we are failing. More than half of our coral reef is in bad condition and now we have this humongous vessel from abroad come and drop an anchor with a long chain just damaging beautiful living reef and the worst part of it is it is right around one of our most famous dive site which was rated number one dive site in the country of Belize which is the Esmeralda Dive Site which has a lot of nurse sharks which we go and view and feed.”

Normally when a ship runs aground on the reef, the vessel would be arrested by the Port Authority and the Fisheries Department would conduct an assessment of damages to the reef. These agencies act under the leadership of the Department of Environment, which would push for prosecution. But the events apparently did not unfold that way.

Jose Sanchez
“Was he arrested?”

Miguel Alamilla
“He was detained. He was detained but he was not really arrested to say it that way during the investigation.”

Jose Sanchez
“So he was let go?

Miguel Alamilla
“Well, the Department of Environment is working along with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the Mexican Embassy to find a solution to this event.

Jose Sanchez
“Is he still detained?”

Miguel Alamilla
“No, he is not detained anymore. As I told you they are still liable for the damages they caused to the reef.”

Jose Sanchez
“And what did your assessment show?”

Miguel Alamilla
“We did an assessment yesterday afternoon, a rapid assessment actually. We did find that there was damage to the reef; an area of about twenty-eight meters by forty-five meters. And so there is coral damage, broken corals, boulders overturned and so forth. Depending on the results of our assessment, charges would be brought to the owners or captain of the vessel and they will probably have to pay a fine for the damages.”

The Fisheries Department says it did not get to complete its assessment and the Port Authority also says it did not get to arrest the yacht or its owner. Both agencies are perplexed and surprised to find out that the billionaire, the yacht and its captain have sailed back to Mexican waters without being charged.

Billy Leslie
“Well, I feel terrible. That was the saddest news I could ever heard. Not only the damage of the reef but now because they are important people it means that is ok? Let us turn this and say, what would have been done if that same vessel had done that in Cozumel, Playa del Carmen. Do you think they Mexican Government would have let them go? No way; they would have been in jail now and being facing a humongous fine. I think that we have to fine these people I don’t care if they are from TV Azteca, CNN or even Channel Five. If they damage our reef, we should fine them and take the money and place more in buoys so that we don’t get this damage again. This is the second vessel of the same magnitude on the same site that have done this damage and our government officials have just release them and let them go. I am super, super sad and I will not let this go like this.”

San Pedranos will not let the incident go either. All eyes are pointed to the Department of Environment to answer if a settlement was made and how was a settlement arrived at without the damage assessment report from the Fisheries Department. All calls made to D.O.E. remain unanswered. Reporting for News Five, Jose Sanchez.


The Mexican Embassy says that they were informed of the event but they had no consultations with the Ministry of Foreign Affairs about the incident.

http://www.channel5belize.com/archive_detail_story.php?story_id=23771
Posted By: Monel

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 09:23 AM

So do captain's of boats that are this stupid or willfully ignorant lose their Captain's license ? They sure as hell should !!
Posted By: sweetjane

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 01:12 PM

this is the same DOE that just approved SBB, against the vocal desires of the people of SP? ok...this should be interesting.

(jesse - i pulled my post yesterday out of respect, but it don't mean i didnt believe it to be true. IMO, SBB's approval proved it.)
Posted By: Relaxed

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by Otteralum
his excuse doesn't seem plausible (from marty's thread on topic). Any avid boaters care to comment on the validity of his excuse??


It seems that the ship lost power is my guess...........it is the usual cause of such accidents.
Posted By: Relaxed

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by Short
That's what you get when you hire a Mexican!


Cute, however I have followed the issue of wrecks and naval collisions and it is apparent that American Captains have a significantly higher rate of "accidents" internationally.
Posted By: sweetjane

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 02:35 PM

[quote=ScubaLdy]I just came on the board for the first time today and read all 8 pages of messages.
Ironic, but I spent all day today preparing a video to enter in an underwater photo contest. The incident that has been referred to I think happened about four years ago. Here is a copy of the narrative I recorded on my video.

I am going to show you 3 minutes of uninterrupted, unedited video that I was asked to shoot to be used as evidence of the devastating damage done to the reef by one boat in one night.

All of the white areas you are looking at are damaged corals.


A large boat came inside the barrier reef at San Pedro Town on Ambergris Caye in Belize, Central America.

The cuts in the reef that allow boats to cross into the lagoon are narrow and treacherous. The lagoon is not deep enough to accommodate large vessels.

However, one evening one owner did manage to get his boat close enough to shore to come into town for some drinks.

At a bar he asked if there was anyone who could captain his boat so that he could get back to sea.

One man said he could – The man was not a captain – and he crashed into the reef. The anchor caught on a coral head and came off the chain.

The boat drifted down the reef dragging the loose chain causing it to whip saw a wide swatch of broken coral in its wake.

When the owner was arrested he offered to pay cash on the spot if they would allow him to leave.

How can anyone assess the value of the damage done or how long it will take the reef to recover?

In true keystone cops scenario he was not held by any one of several agencies.

The various government agencies squabbled over which pocket the hefty fine would go into.

After three days the owner quietly said away from Belize.[

Even the turtle can’t believe it!

I shot for a half an hour and had not covered all of the damage. [quote]

i did not want harriette's post to get lost in the text. this seems a similar story but with different players. i'm not saying wrong-doing was done, i am noting harriette's keystone cops reference. don't you see, for all mr. leslie's efforts, it can't help seeming, from the outside (in other words, to me), an uncanny similarity to what she quoted above happening again.
Posted By: bywarren

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 02:38 PM

Interesting philosophies presented here. You have a country promoting and dependent on tourism. You have the president of the Tour Guides Association seemingly calling for the arrest and imprisonment of the captain of a yacht that brought 25 plus people to Belize for an Easter vacation that, due to an accident, caused damage to the reef. You have people on this message board calling the captain stupid, suggesting he loose his license among other condemnations.
And, apparently from all accounts, the facts are still not determined other than the reef was damaged.
Now, referring to the phrase “make lemonade out of lemons”, wouldn’t it be nice if those guests were welcomed to Belize, explained to them that under the laws of Belize when a vessel damaged the reef reparations are due. The captain was courteously escorted to the proper authorities that made sure that the owner had insurance to cover the damages that would later be assessed or a bond was posted to cover future assessed damages and then the captain and guests were offered the hospitality that Belize tries to be known for.
Hopefully, the authorities handling this did so in a manner that assured the funds would be available to pay for the damages and the people who came to Belize for vacation were accommodate in the best possible way under the circumstances.
Now picture the two different ways this could be reported in the Mexican media ie: lemons or lemonade. If some message boarders or the president of Tour Guides were handling it I think I know.
Posted By: 2Aggies

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 03:11 PM

Having bareboat chartered in several countries (mostly around precious reefs for diving) and possessing a license, I am fully aware of a captains duties and responsibilities. It should be obvious to everyone this was an accident. Albeit an avoidable accident. You do NOT carelessly run any boat (much less a boat of this magnitude) aground. I am certified instrument/navigation in open water and assure you when navigating near shorelines and any mapped underwater structures I read, re-read, and then re-read charts again and again. GPS systems have changed so much for the better and vessels like this one have sophisticated underwater sonar that should have allowed precise navigation of the cut. No - he should not have been so close to the reef in that boat. If it was dark, he should have moored offshore until obtaining a visual for the safe passage of the cut or made radio contact if there is a shoreline or marine official.
The reef damage is sad. I only hope this will bring more discussion about ways to prevent this from happening. Before, you start typing, I realize I am not down there and this may already be happening. With the gaining popularity of this wonderful town and reef it is only going to attract more or these super-yachts. On a personal note I would prefer these boats not be allowed to moor anywhere near the reef, it takes away from the diving experience to look up and see a 100' hull looming on the surface. Kinda like diving under a cruise ship.
Posted By: sweetjane

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 03:44 PM

by, i am always interested by your posts. plz see my comments in blue:

Originally Posted by bywarren
Interesting philosophies presented here. You have a country promoting and dependent on tourism. You have the president of the Tour Guides Association seemingly calling for the arrest and imprisonment of the captain of a yacht that brought 25 plus people to Belize for an Easter vacation that, due to an accident, caused damage to the reef.

[technically, he calls for the arrest of the vessel, but i dont know the difference.]

You have people on this message board calling the captain stupid, suggesting he loose his license among other condemnations.

[personally, i did not and hope i am not lumped in that group. what i said was, accident or not, there should be some repercussion for carelessness & damage]

And, apparently from all accounts, the facts are still not determined other than the reef was damaged. [true.]

...wouldn’t it be nice if those guests were welcomed to Belize, explained to them that under the laws of Belize when a vessel damaged the reef reparations are due. The captain was courteously escorted to the proper authorities that made sure that the owner had insurance to cover the damages that would later be assessed or a bond was posted to cover future assessed damages and then the captain and guests were offered the hospitality that Belize tries to be known for.

[sounds good to me. but plz clarify: is that what happened, what SHOULD happen, or what SHOULD HAVE but will likely NOT happen?]
Posted By: reaper

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 03:52 PM

Everyone is up in arms about the reef. The same folks that lather up on sun tan lotion before going out to shark ray alley...
Posted By: bywarren

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 04:00 PM

sweetjane: from the information I have read, I do not know what happened to the people involved. My point is the only good outcome from this is financial reperations that hopefully would be used to prevent future incidences like this. The unfortunate outcome could be leaving people who came to Belize for vaction a worse than necessary experience. Especially people associated with major media in Mexico. I would hope the attitude of those Belizean authorities involved would be to understand that every tourist is important,especially media associated tourists, and causing them unecessary and an unpleasant experience in Belize does nothing to help Belize.
Assuring the money will be paid that is due under Belize law is one objective. Handling it in a way that lessons the negative experience of these people should also be an objective. Make lemonade out of lemons.
Posted By: SP Daily

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 04:25 PM

Thankfully, the message board lynch party doesn't have any say in this matter!
Posted By: bywarren

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 04:56 PM

Good point Jesse. Let's hope the country with the 5th largest readers of this message board don't take offense to remarks made of their countrymen.
Posted By: SP Daily

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 04:59 PM

AMEN!
Posted By: bywarren

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 05:29 PM

Here is a question I have for the "knowlegdeable" boat opperators that question the captains actions, call him stupid, suggest he should loose his captains license and make statements like "We all know as boaters, that you never place an anchor on delicate coral reef ecosystem".
Based on the only information I have read regarding the actions leading up to this accident is the statement by the captain:
"Eckart told authorities that he was heading into Belizean waters a few miles off the reef when ropes got caught up in the propellers of the vessel. According to Eckart the engine on the vessel automatically shut down and the vessel took a turn for the reef. To avoid a direct impact on the reef, Eckart stated that they decided to use the anchors to bring the vessel to a stop. The anchors ripped through a large area of the reef before coming to a stand still, however a constant northeasterly wind kept moving the vessel moving in different locations causing further damage."
Now until another version is documented, I would ask those knowledgeable, what should have been done?
If the captain's version is accurate it seems like releasing the anchor and stopping the boat from ending up on the reef is the lessor of two evils and the captain prevented greater damage by doing so.
Inquirering minds would like to know.

And PS: if the cause of this was truly rope being caught in the props, no GPS, chart, depth recorder or any other technologic instrument could have helped to prevent it.
Posted By: Belize-N-Us

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 05:32 PM


"what should have been done?"

How's this for starters......KEEP YOUR DAMN ROPES OUT OF THE PROPELLERS!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted By: Belize-N-Us

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 05:33 PM



How's........... don't approach ANY reef in the dark.
Posted By: Belize-N-Us

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 05:35 PM



Now for a serious question that I would like to know.

What side of the reef were the anchors on?
Open sea side or town side?
Posted By: sweetjane

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 05:37 PM

please ignore the attitude above ^^, and again, do not lump me with anyone who insulted anyone else.

BUT, imo:

"It should be obvious to everyone this was an accident. Albeit an avoidable accident. I am certified instrument/navigation in open water and assure you when navigating near shorelines and any mapped underwater structures I read, re-read, and then re-read charts again and again. GPS systems have changed so much for the better and vessels like this one have sophisticated underwater sonar that should have allowed precise navigation of the cut. No - he should not have been so close to the reef in that boat. If it was dark, he should have moored offshore until obtaining a visual for the safe passage of the cut or made radio contact if there is a shoreline or marine official."

and:

"a boat like that would have all latest equipment radar gps depth sounder alarms ect....[possibly] hit he reef resulting in panic tossed out a rear anchor and reversed into the line tangling the props.

there is no excuse for a boat that size hitting anything they have large screens that show the entire ocean floor as well as charts that every vessel must have."

...kinda makes sense to me.
Posted By: champion

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 05:37 PM

Bywarren is showing massive sobriety, Tommy massive emotionalism.
Just my opinion. The last mistake Tommy made was thinking he made a mistake.
Posted By: Belize-N-Us

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 05:41 PM


And before you defenders of this "honest mistake that could have happened to any captain" posters get to ask.......no I'm not a sea captain.

But I'm still entitled to MY personal opinion as to this event.

And for papa.....why do you keep saying that I and others are trying to tell "Belize" what to do? I haven't said one word as to what should have or could have been done to the captain.

I just called him incompetent and stupid. This is my personal opinion of this captain knowing only 2 facts. I'm entitled to my opinion just like you are entitled to yours. There is no need to call each other pompass or asses or both just because we differ in our personal completely meaningless opinions.
Posted By: bywarren

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 05:43 PM

What make you jump to the conclusion that the ropes were his?
Posted By: Belize-N-Us

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 05:44 PM

Everyone makes mistakes, myself included.

But I can tell you this for a fact.......if I made an equal level "honest mistake" of this magnitude in my practice then I would have my medical license revoked.

Champion if you don't know me then don't judge me from 1,000 miles away.
Posted By: sweetjane

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 05:46 PM

tommy, please - name calling is childish. if you have something to say, all are entitled to an opinion here. but there is a way to be civil & courteous, and still get your opinion across. you are making all the rest of us look bad, and hijacking the thread with bickering. i suggest if you wish to be heard, say things in a little nicer fashion. i am going around the nonsense & restating my post:

Originally Posted by sweetjane
please ignore the attitude above ^^, and again, do not lump me with anyone who insulted anyone else.

BUT, imo:

"It should be obvious to everyone this was an accident. Albeit an avoidable accident. I am certified instrument/navigation in open water and assure you when navigating near shorelines and any mapped underwater structures I read, re-read, and then re-read charts again and again. GPS systems have changed so much for the better and vessels like this one have sophisticated underwater sonar that should have allowed precise navigation of the cut. No - he should not have been so close to the reef in that boat. If it was dark, he should have moored offshore until obtaining a visual for the safe passage of the cut or made radio contact if there is a shoreline or marine official."

and:

"a boat like that would have all latest equipment radar gps depth sounder alarms ect....[possibly] hit he reef resulting in panic tossed out a rear anchor and reversed into the line tangling the props.

there is no excuse for a boat that size hitting anything they have large screens that show the entire ocean floor as well as charts that every vessel must have."

...kinda makes sense to me.
Posted By: Belize-N-Us

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 05:49 PM



bywarren has a point.

But I still say why was the ship in this proximity to the reef at night.

warren, I'll buy you a case of your favorite beer on my next trip down if those ropes weren't from the ship itself.
Posted By: champion

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 05:51 PM

Belize-n-us, have you ever been in an auto accident?

ac⋅ci⋅dent   /ˈæksɪdənt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ak-si-duhnt] Show IPA
–noun 1. an undesirable or unfortunate happening that occurs unintentionally and usually results in harm, injury, damage, or loss; casualty; mishap: automobile accidents.

Should you loose your license for life and be called incompetent and stupid.
Posted By: Belize-N-Us

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 05:52 PM



Jane I am NOT the one who started the ASS calling name throwing.

I said the captain was incompetent and stupid. My opinion and I still believe it.

Don't tell other adults how to post. I don't scold you for your posting style that's strickly up to you.

My posts have nothing what so ever to do with yours. I don't think anyone "lumps" you in with me.
Posted By: bywarren

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 05:55 PM

Seems to me it would be alot more logical and fair to the captain if judgement, especially condemnation, was withheld until the facts were known.
Prevents having to buy a case of beer. By the way, I do not drink beer - mostly wine and in this case vintage wine. wink
Posted By: LaurieMar

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 05:56 PM

Here's my take on this: unless you were on that boat, the captain of the boat or are involved in the investigation, everything else is just speculation and conjecture.
Posted By: Belize-N-Us

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 05:59 PM



There is no such thing as an "accident".

We as adults make descisions to drive cars. We choose when, where, how fast, what we drive.

In every car collision there is fault. Someone made a mistake, was drunk or high, driving at excessive speeds or chose to drive in conditions that were hazardous.

Yes, I have been in a motor vehicle collision.

Did I collide a 100+ million dollar vessel into a priceless living structure which sustains income for an entire country, NO!
Posted By: Belize-N-Us

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 06:01 PM



Well then warren I'll change my offer to a "reasonably" priced bottle of wine you enjoy.

Just prove to me the ropes were not from the ship and I'll buy or bring you one from my cellar.
Posted By: bywarren

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 06:04 PM

So, if a driver has a tire blow out, assuming the premise that the tires were relitively new and not worn past there usefull life, is that driver at fault for the accident?

PS: don't confuse "fault" and "responsible".
Posted By: LaurieMar

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 06:08 PM

Accidents can and do happen that are not attibutable to negligence or someone's "fault".
Posted By: SimonB

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 06:09 PM

Why on earth would they have ropes hanging off the boat. Look at the pictures do you see any ropes hanging off the boat? The boat is outside the reef and even if it was inside the reef it was going to anchor which doesn't involve having any kind of rope on deck (for that size vessel.)

Before you ask I've been a licensed boat captain for 30 years.
Posted By: bywarren

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 06:13 PM

Chateau Lafite 1969
Posted By: sweetjane

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 06:16 PM

(moving right along) i agree with both by & laurie, of course. it IS all speculation & conjecture for now.

but i have to say i am also curious why the ship's gps, sonar, radar, depth gages whatever were not being used, and why he didnt anchor farther away until daylight as well. only the investigation can prove or disprove negligence.

by, i love your idea of turning an unfortunate situation into a media darling, showing how, in spite of a very unfortunate accident, belize forgave & welcomed the guests (after the fine was paid), who then enjoyed a lovely holiday in Belize, boasting about it to all of mexico upon their return. woulda made a good made-for-tv movie.

i am very interested to see how the real story unfolds.
Posted By: champion

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 06:16 PM

Not bad but I think 1964 was a better year?
Posted By: bywarren

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 06:21 PM

sweetjane: if the captain's version, the only version so far, is correct, then ropes getting caught in the props could not have been prevented by any instrumention.
Posted By: sweetjane

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 06:31 PM

true. but, attempting to think as a lawyer, can he prove his testimony without the rope itself as evidence? is there any documentation saying the rope exists as evidence? i mean, can a verbal testimony hold up in an investigation, withour physical evidence? and then, the assumption is that the rope in question was just free-floating debris?

can a licensed captain tell us how close a vessel that size needs to be to the reef at average speed, that when a theoretical rope gets tangled, it does not have the ability to stop before getting too close?
Posted By: SP Daily

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 06:36 PM

Geeez... this thread is RIDICULOUS!
Posted By: sweetjane

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 06:50 PM

(sorry. home sick in bed today with too much idle time on my hands. i'll go watch tv instead.)
Posted By: bywarren

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 06:51 PM

Jesse: you say that but you are not the one who is going to get the wine. smile
Posted By: ragman

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 06:52 PM

bywarren, I had a master's license for many years. There are a lot of considerations here, as I see it. My first thought as Master of that vessel would have been the safety of the 25 persons on board. His decision to anchor could have been a reasonable decision depending on the circumstances which we don't presently know. At night drifting toward the reef with possibly no power, for what ever reason. (line wrapped around shaft could have been caused by a line in the water or a careless crew member or passenger, we don't know at this point) He may or may not have been familiar with the cut into San Pedro. He may not have known the rescue capabilities available in SP. A lot could have been going through his mind and that is why there is usually an inquiry after an incident like this. Does anyone in SP monitor VHF radio at that time of the night?

Some thoughts however: I usually plan a voyage to make landfall in daylight unless it is an easy entrance. A few times I was delayed and stayed offshore until daylight when a tricky harbor was to be entered, especially when making way through coral heads, reefs and/or limited water depth. For instance I've stayed offshore few places in the Bahamas rather than tempt fate. The rising sun behind you would make this entrance easier I believe.

I had the benefit of some electronic aids but not to the extent of the navigational instruments you are likely to find on this vessel. I just don't fully trust electronics on a tricky entrance and would rather be conservative and wait for daylight. Hindsight is a wonderful thing though and I wouldn't second guess him without all the info.

Posted By: bywarren

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 07:01 PM

In other words, none of us know the facts leading up to this and most of us aren't qualified to judge the captains actions even if we knew all the facts.
Posted By: ragman

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 07:01 PM

sj, his testimony in absence of any contradictory evidence would have a lot of weight at an inquiry I would think. Distance off I'll leave to some one else but it is subjective. One time coming up the west coast of Florida I was running about a 1/2 mile off the shallow water and that didn't work out too well for me if you know what I mean. There was no or little damage done except to my nerves but I didn't do that again.
Posted By: ragman

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 07:02 PM

by, Correct
Posted By: Relaxed

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 07:02 PM

FYI.............check the Belize City Port Captain log..........I believe there may have been a "May Day" call @ the time of the incident.
Posted By: Nancy1340

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by ScubaLdy
I am going to show you 3 minutes of uninterrupted, unedited video that I was asked to shoot to be used as evidence of the devastating damage done to the reef by one boat in one night.



Where is the video link?
Posted By: Belize-N-Us

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 09:45 PM

"So, if a driver has a tire blow out, assuming the premise that the tires were relitively new and not worn past there usefull life, is that driver at fault for the accident?"

If the blowout results in a crash then yes the driver is at fault: 1) driver made the descision to purchase / drive on these tires 2) had the driver been driving slowly enough the blowout would not have resulted in a crash.

There is fault somewhere in all man made mishaps.
Posted By: Belize-N-Us

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 09:48 PM


"Accidents can and do happen that are not attibutable to negligence or someone's "fault".

Name one excluding natural disasters.
Posted By: Belize-N-Us

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 09:52 PM

jesse, I'm going to steal your thought of the day.

I think it's fitting to this thread.


THOUGHT OF THE DAY
Successful people ask better questions, and as a result,
they get better answers
Tony Robbins



Posted By: champion

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 10:04 PM

Seems I remember that Ford and Firestone were both at fault for single car rollovers due to bad or low aired tires. Now you are saying that it's the drivers fault for only putting in 28 psi as per Ford recomendations, but Firestone said they needed 36 psi min.. or better, the captain of the SUV followed the instructions placed on the driver door jamb to inflate to 28 psi. then crashed due to rollover.
Posted By: bywarren

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 10:07 PM

And, it could be said that unsuccessful people form opinions before they ask questions and get results.
Posted By: LaurieMar

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 10:11 PM

Obviously, you are not familiar with the law of negligence or you wouldn't be asking for an explanation. Look it up: proximate cause, substantial factor, actual cause. I am not going to preach my craft here, as this is not the place.

One example: a dart out by an animal or child into the street who is killed by a vehicle who was not speeding and obeying all laws.
Posted By: Belize-N-Us

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 10:13 PM


No high speed driving = no rollover.

No top heavey vehicle = no rollover.

Driver made a choice in the type of vehicle they were driving, in the speed at which they drove and in the tires they chose to drive with.

Fault is MOSTLY on the "faulty" tires yes but some fault still lies with the driver's choices.

Still a very poor analogy to hitting or anchoring on a stationary reef.
Posted By: Belize-N-Us

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 10:19 PM

Driver made a choice to drive at that time in that location and at a speed that would not allow enough time to safely avoid a "darting" child.

In addition the driver should have known of the existance of children in this location and made adjustments to accomodate the possiblity of a "darting" child.

Ms. lawyer I'm not going to try to aurgue your craft either, I would surely lose that aurgument but you just used "the law" to justify or remove "fault" from a driver who ran over a child. I personally don't care what law has or has not been broken if an adult runs over a child then that adult IS at fault.
Posted By: champion

Re: Stupid and rich / a bad combination - 04/09/09 10:20 PM

We have gone way beyond the boat issue and are now on a totally different plateau. IMHO
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