Dumping in the sea

Posted By: Pokey

Dumping in the sea - 08/17/11 11:19 PM

Are there any laws or regulations prohibiting the dumping of large pieces of metal in the sea?
Posted By: Diane Campbell

Re: Dumping in the sea - 08/17/11 11:40 PM

Probably, but details ? what, where?

Posted By: Pokey

Re: Dumping in the sea - 08/17/11 11:51 PM

A boat load of old appliances inside the reef.
Posted By: Diane Campbell

Re: Dumping in the sea - 08/18/11 12:06 AM


Suggest reporting to DoE, Ministry of Natural Resources, Fisheries, Tour Guide Association, ACCSD, Town Board and everybody/anybody who will listen!
Posted By: jweber

Re: Dumping in the sea - 08/18/11 02:00 AM

how much got dumped
and im assuming its at your front door
Posted By: Bear

Re: Dumping in the sea - 08/18/11 02:35 AM

I just dont get why people would even consider such a thing.

Man it just amazes me. Lets crap all over where we live and fish and exist.
Posted By: Pokey

Re: Dumping in the sea - 08/18/11 03:10 AM

Someone that did. It appeared to be stoves, washing machines and other appliance parts. It will be like snorkeling over a dump!
Posted By: Rykat

Re: Dumping in the sea - 08/18/11 03:16 AM

send it to New Jersey, we love artificial reefs! grin

Posted By: bywarren

Re: Dumping in the sea - 08/18/11 01:43 PM

A lot depends on where, how and for what reasons it was done. Artificial reefs,
FADS ( fish attracting devices), have been proven to aid in the production of marine life. When AC had 700 people living off of the sea, the natural marine ecosystem provided them with all the sea food needed. Now with 20,000 people putting that kind of demand on the system, destruction of the system due to development and part of the system, i.e. reef, off limits to fishing, there is an argument for man having to supplement nature.
One of my more productive fishing sites on the back side of the island is an old truck bed that was placed there years ago. The area on the back side of the island lacks in natural structure providing protection and production of marine life based on the amount of fishing pressure that it has now.
Dumping garbage just for the sake of getting rid of it, or dumping it in the middle of Hol Chan would be wrong. But before jumping to the conclusion that it is wrong, one should find out more information.
Posted By: ron

Re: Dumping in the sea - 08/18/11 04:53 PM

Thank you bywarren. There are many sites around the Cayes that have sunk barges that offer good fishing spots. Lobster fisherman often put old metal roofs down for shades for the lobster. The the States we even sink boats to help develop reefs. So as you say don't jump to conclusions. Get the whole story.
Posted By: JZB

Re: Dumping in the sea - 08/18/11 05:22 PM

It would seem to me any dumping of appliances on the seabed would need approval of the DOE since the sea floor is public land (as all dock owners already know). When tankers and such are sunk to create artificial reefs it is done in deep enough water that corals can grow on them and in turn become their own eco system. I would think washing machines and appliance parts sunk inside the reef have a very little chance of becoming encrusted with coral and will forever look like scrap metal on the sea floor. Not very appealing in my opinion. I would hope any artificial reef created on the inside of the barrier reef would be made with natural materials. But again, only my opinion.
Posted By: Bear

Re: Dumping in the sea - 08/19/11 01:12 AM

JZB youre on point. Theres a huge difference between sinking a prepped boat for a reef and dumping garbage. In fact the local skippers' take on artificial reefs using this kind of material is that it's a waste of time. They've told me it doesnt hold, it moves, and it doesnt last.

All this does is crap up the inner reef while it corrodes away releasing heavy metals, oils, potentially even coolants from refrigerators or acids from cart batteries. Makes you wonder if there will be an increase of this activity as people with access to a boat try to clear and dispose of fire debris from their home's in the downtown areas.

Come on guys there's little enough respect for solid waste management on the Caye as it is, and most know that. Occam's Razor would dictate this isn't fish altruism its simply, and unfortunately, an easy way to get rid of scrap appliances.
Posted By: bywarren

Re: Dumping in the sea - 08/20/11 04:21 PM

Improper disposal of unwanted items in the sea is wrong. But to condemn proven methods such as FADS and artificial reefs, many constructed of materials like metal, shows an ignorance of what has been proven successful in other areas. With the growth in population and demand for seafood combined with the destruction of natural habitat, Belize needs to consider alternative ways of helping nature. Before those who are opposed to these measures, especially the tourists and influx of foreigners living or wanting to live in Belize, they should take more into consideration the success of these measures and the need for them.
Posted By: Bear

Re: Dumping in the sea - 08/21/11 12:56 AM

I dont disagree when the intent is there and when using the right materials bywarren, but as I said even the local fishermen engaged in these activitries have told me this kind of approach is worthless and simply craps up the inshore reef areas. They make theirs out of chunks of coral over longer periods of time. I do not condemn the creation of artifical habitat.

btw FADS are usually offshore devices in bouyed in deeper waters although FADs proximal to reef dropoff have been succesful in areas like the Cook Islands, Aitutaki for example.
Posted By: bywarren

Re: Dumping in the sea - 08/21/11 03:10 AM

Well, I guess you talk to different "local fishermen" than I do. In the 43 years I have known local fisherman, I have watched them and participated with them in putting structures in the waters behind the island and the mainland to harbor and attract fish. These are the places they go to catch fish along with the light house structures that still stand along with those that are no longer standing and are collasped.
Posted By: Rykat

Re: Dumping in the sea - 08/21/11 03:51 AM

any "Captain" in the area worth his salt has a few honey holes up his sleave and most have built them!
Posted By: Bear

Re: Dumping in the sea - 08/21/11 08:35 AM

Lol, Bywarren, I'm glad to hear that. Truly. I'll more than willingly admit I certainly don't have 43 years of local experience. But then the kind of structures you're talking about helping with weren't simply heaps of junk appliances were they?

I don't think one person here was condemning legal activites creating artificial reefs. Given the level of your experience on the island and in these matters I will pose a question: Is it legal to indiscriminately dump appliances whether its for fish habitat or not?

"... to condemn proven methods such as FADS and artificial reefs, many constructed of materials like metal, shows an ignorance of what has been proven successful in other areas." You're mistaken I am not ignorant of their success. I cannot speak for others but I respectfully submit you have misinterpretted or taken more than one of my statements out of context and drawn a completely wrong assumption about what I'm saying.

My local experience is limited to a few trips and with some very experienced local fishermen who took me to their artifical reefs made from coral chunks they had built up over time. I havent had the experience of fishing a lighthouse shaped attractor as yet. Thank you for making me aware of their existence. I look forward to learning more about those. As I said I am glad that well constructed reefs are being, have been, deployed. Great. I am not against the creation of artificial reefs or FADs, inshore or offshore, I have no problem with metal as a component of an artificial reef. In fact I'm assuming from the few details you've provided the ones you helped with were specifically designed and built partially or wholly from that material. As long as the materials used are approved I'm good with it.

I did have specific conversations with my guides about the efficacy of materials used, not whether artifical reefs were effective or not (there is no question in my mind, of course they are). The topic of appliances as materials, even old golf carts, came up in our conversations. Their conclusions, apparently drawn from theirs and other's experiences were that using them was a "waste of time" as reef materials. They didnt "stick around" as the current shifted them offiste and/or they corroded rapidly. In addition they didnt seem to think dumping some items, like old golf carts was such a good idea simply on principle. That is the basis of the comment "..even the local fishermen engaged in these activitries have told me this kind of approach is worthless...". "Activities" being reef buidling, "this kind of approach" meaning using materials like appliances. I prefaced that sentence by concurring with you and a proviso about using proper materials.

The original context of the thread was: is it legal? People on the board were aggravated by the situation and posted as much. At the time you didn't seem to care or question that appliances were being used for this purpose. You also chose to not react to the original question of legality but instead you reacted by implying the initial posts were jumping to improper conclusions and had not given consideration as to the possibility that maybe the individuals involved were making artifical reefs.

Legality aside it seemed you felt these materials were definitely a viable and acceptable means of creating artificial reefs. Based on the conversations I referenced earlier, and assuming that it was common local knowledge as to the ineffectiveness of these materials taken from those conversations, I simply found the creation of an artificial reef from this junk as being the less likely explanation of the two offered. Therefore I proposed that he more likely explanation for the activity in question was simply "guys dumping junk". I also added in support of that conclusion my observations that there is a country wide issue with waste disposal compliance. I assume you've seen that for yourself.

That's all I said and all I intended; an educated conjecture over the intent of the activity given two choices. I have know idea where you later got that I was condeming artificial reefs.

With respect to your comments regarding the need to maintain a strong local fisheries for the burgeoning population (and simply for the sake of having a healty reef) I'm sure you'd agree that an ounce of prevention in maintaining and protecting critical fisheries habitat (mangroves, turtle grass beds, the maintnenance and protection of Marine Reserves), is worth more than a pound of artificial reefs. Artifical reefs are a means of expanding viable habitat to larger juevenile and mature fish. But they have to be populated and that is only possible when there are young fish and organisms available to populate them. Many of these species require breeding areas to do that.

In the long run you're, no excuse me, make that "we're" not going to have any fisheries for the artificial reefs if we don't protect the critical fisheries support habitat that exists now. Reaching that goal not only inlcudes enforcement, but more it includes educating people regardless of age, years on the island, where they're from, or what local knowledge they may, or may not have, in such matters. To my mind it definitely includes keeping junk from being dumped in the Belizean seas.

Posted By: bywarren

Re: Dumping in the sea - 08/21/11 11:47 AM

Thanks Bear, your extensive response accurately explains and addressed the original question. In my old and sarcastic attitude, I took the extreme opposite position to some who seem to indicate that nothing should be used for the purpose we are discussing. The local fisherman's word in Spanish for the structures is ramada or rama. Most that I have known about or helped with were constructed of palmeto branches. Although one in particular that has been there for I would estimate in excess of 25 years in an old pickup truck bed.
I agree that dumping improper materials should be illegal, but I cannot accept that certain metal materials could not be used properly.
The origainal post did not give sufficient information for me to decide if this particular instance was the proper use or not. My guess was it was not proper, but some seemed to jump to the conclusion that nothing put in the sea should be allowed, so I took the extreme opposite position.
It is good that there are people like you who can express the moderate position. smile
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Dumping in the sea - 08/21/11 02:17 PM

Excellent post, Bear.
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