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Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs

Posted By: Sir Isaac Newton

Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/25/06 03:01 PM

More stats:


Alcohol:

o 140 million Americans use alcohol


o 18 million of these abuse alcohol or are alcoholics.


o 100,000 deaths are due to alcohol, and an additional

100,000 deaths are alcohol related.

Cocaine:


o 12.2 million Americans used cocaine at least once in 1985.


o 250,000 used it weekly.


o In 1986, there were almost 1000 cocaine-induced deaths.


Now let's recalculate.


Deaths per user:

Alcohol = 100,000/140,000,000 = .07 % or 70 per 100,000

Cocaine = 1,000/ 12,200,000 = .008 % or 8 per 100,000


Deaths per abuser:

Alcohol = 100,000/18,000,000 = .56 % or 56 per 10,000

Cocaine = 1,000/ 250,000 = .40 % or 40 per 10,000


So even considering abusers, with advantage to alcohol (probably

should be over 1%), cocaine is still healthier.


By the way, you reported earlier the number 6000 for

illegal drug deaths. But:


o National Council on Alcoholism estimated that in 1985

all illegal drugs combined killed 3562 Americans


[Most of these numbers are gleaned from an essay by Ethan Nadelmann

called The Case for Legalization. It is found in:

The Drug Legalization Debate. (ed. Inciardi, James A.),

Sage publications, 1991. ISBN 0-8039-3677-{X or 8pbk}.

It is a good book and should be referenced in our FAQ file.]


=============================================================================


From: [email protected]


The exact numbers vary, depending on the source and their

methodology. I have presented several sets of numbers here.

In general you will see that the vast amount of money/energy/etc.

applied to "illicit" drugs is quite misplaced if one is counting

deaths or death rate per user.

You may have access in your library to things like the Center for

Disease Control Mortality and Morbidity reports and yearly summaries.

The last one I looked at listed 800 something deaths a year

for aspirin (and more for acetominephin (sp?) and ibuprofen) -

verses 0 for cannabis (hemp/pot/marijuana/...).


============

(on the back cover of The Emperor Wears No Clothes)

"How Dangerous is Marijuana in Comparison to Other Substances?"

Number of American Deaths per year that result directly or

primarily from the following (selected) causes nationwide,

according to World Almanacs, Life Insurance Actuarial (death)

Rates, and the last 18 years of the U.S. Surgeon General's Reports.


Tobacco....................................340,000 to 395,000

Alcohol (not includeing 50% of all highway

deaths and 65% of all murders).....125,000+

Aspirin (including deliberate overdose).... 180 to 1,000+

Caffeine (from stress, ulcers and triggering

irregular heartbeats, etc.)........ 1,000 to 10,000

'Legal' drug overdose (deliberate or accidental)

from legal, prescribed or patent medicines

and/or mixing with alcohol e.g. Valium/alcohol... 14,000 to 27,000

Illicit drug overdose (deliberate or accidental) from

all illegal drugs................................ 3,800 to 5,200

marijuana (including overdose)........................... 0 (zero)


------------

The Emperor Wears No Clothes

by Jack Herer

available from:

H.E.M.P. Publishing

5632 Van Nuys Blvd suite 210

Van Nuys CA 91401 (213) 392-1806


============

from Thinking About Drug Legalization

by James Ostrowski

Cato Institute Paper # 121, May 25, 1989 $2.00

to order or for information, write

Policy Analysis

Cato Institute

224 Second St. SE

Washington DC 20003


pg 47 reprinted without permission (I didn't find "Copyright..." or circled-C,

but they did say to contact them... I guess if you want to reprint

the whole thing - what the hey - at $2.00 for 64 pages why reprint,

just buy the whole thing from them!

[ my (glo's) the posters notes in [] - glo]

[ glo note: *xxx* used in place of underlines - glo]


===============

pg 47

Table 4 presents the estimated per capita death rates

for each drug. (While a number of people have died as a result

of marijuana *enforcement*, there are apparently no confirmed

deaths traceable to marijuana *use*.) The figures for cocaine

and heroin have been adjusted downward, in accordance with

the previous analysis, to include only those deaths due to drug

use per se. The unadjusted death rate for these drugs is in

parentheses.


[glo note: the "previous analysis" details how overdose due to]

[ variable strength and toxic reactions and infections due to]

[ the uncontrolled black market in drugs causes most of the]

[ deaths due to "heroin and cocaine" use - glo]


Estimated Per Capita Death Rates by Drugs

----------------------------------------------------------

Drug Users Deaths per Year Deaths per 100,000

----------------------------------------------------------

Tobacco 60 million 390,000 (a) 650

alcohol 100 million 150,000 (b) 150

Heroin 500,000 400 (c) 80 (400)

Cocaine 5 million 200 (c) 4 (20)

----------------------------------------------------------


[ glo note: the astute reader will notice that even contaminated]

[ street heroin is safer than cigarettes, and cocaine is much safer]

[ than even alcohol. (the crack form is apparently more addicting]

[ than alcohol - but not nicotine, powder is less addicting than alcohol -]

[ see "Hooked Not Hooked") Pot is, well..., "absolutely safe" in]

[ terms of causing death itself. And how many traffic deaths per]

[ year: 20,000+ ? - glo]


(a) "Reducing the Health Consequences of Smoking:

25 Years of Progress" Surgeon General's Report (1989).


(b) Estimates vary greatly, depending upon whether all health

consequences, or only those traditionally associated with

alcoholism, are considered. The Fifth Special Report to the

U.S. Congress on Alcoholism and Health from the Secretary of

Health and Human Services contains two references indicating

a death toll of 200,000: The report states, first, that alcohol

"plays a role in 10% of all deaths in the United States,"

which comes to about 200,000 deaths each year. P. vi. It further

states that present estimates of the death toll from alcohol

abuse are as high as 93.2 per 100,000. Ibid., p. x. This

ratio translates into a total of about 210,000.


(c) These figures were determined as follows: Drug Abuse Warning

Network (DAWN) heroin and cocaine fatalities for 1984, 1985,

and 1986 were averaged. The number of suicides was subtracted.

The figures were discounted to account for deaths in which

both heroin and cocaine played a role. Since DAWN covers

about one-third of the nation's population but almost all

major urban areas where drug use florishes, totals were doubled

to arrive at yearly estimates of 2,000 for heroin deaths and

1,000 for cocaine deaths. Finally, these figures were dis-

counted by 80 percent in accordance with the analysis presented

in the text


========== end of table 4, pg 47======================


and if you want to get some info on addiction, find this magazine article:

(and its references)

Hooked Not Hooked

by Deborah Franklin

In Health (ISSN 1047-0549)

November/December 1990 Volume 4 Number 6

(no address for back issues listed, main address:)

In Health

c/o Hippocrates Partners

475 Gate 5 Road suite 225

Sausalito CA 94965


=============================================================================


From: [email protected]

Date: 7 Sep 91 19:25:39 GMT

Newsgroups: alt.drugs

Subject: For your perusal -- U.S. Surgeon General's Actuarial info


The following is a list of deaths by substance for 1990.


Tobacco . . . . . . . . . . . . 360,000 [legal]

Alcohol . . . . . . . . . . . . 130,000 [legal]

Prescribed drugs . . . . . . . 18,675 [legal]

Caffeine . . . . . . . . . . . 5,800 [legal]

Cocaine . . . . . . . . . . . . 2,390 [illegal]

Heroin . . . . . . . . . . . . 2,147 [illegal]

Aspirin . . . . . . . . . . . . 986 [legal]

Marijuana . . . . . . . . . . . 0 [illegal]


=============================================================================


Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 14:35:10 -0700 (PDT)

From: Leora Lawton

Subject: drug survey results

To: Multiple recipients of list DRUGABUS

Message-id: <[email protected]>


WASHINGTON (AP) _ Illegal drug use is off sharply among American

teen-agers and adults with one glaring exception: those 35 and

older.

Those were the key findings from an annual survey on drug abuse

released Wednesday by federal health officials.

Some 11.4 million Americans age 12 or older were classified as

current users of illegal drugs in 1992, down 11 percent from almost

13 million drug users a year earlier. That means they had used

drugs in the month before the survey.

The number has been declining steadily since 1979, when the same

survey indicated that 24 million Americans had used illicit drugs.

Adults 35 and older _ including the baby boomers who grew up in

the permissive 1960s _ are bucking the trend. Use of drugs in that

age group is the same now as it was back in 1979.

The older adults now comprise 23 percent of illegal drug users,

compared to just 10 percent in 1979.

The number of current cocaine users plummeted 31 percent from

1.9 million in 1991 to 1.3 million in 1992. The federal Substance

Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, which conducted

the survey, said that was down from a peak of 5.8 million in 1985.

Occasional cocaine use _ less than once a month _ was down by

900,000, to 3.4 million. But the number of frequent users _ at

least weekly _ stood unchanged at 640,000.

Marijuana remains the illegal drug of choice, used by 78 percent

of those who tried illegal drugs in 1992.

An estimated 98 million Americans drank alcohol in the month

before the survey; 10 million were defined as heavy drinkers _ five

or more drinks on five or more days in the past 30 days.

The survey also indicated that 54 million Americans, or 26

percent of the population, were cigarette smokers. Some 7.5 million

used smokeless tobacco.

Other statistics:

_Six percent of 12-to-17-year-olds were current users of illegal

drugs; 13 percent of 18-to-25-year-olds and 10 percent of

26-to-34-year-olds used drugs.

_Most illegal drug users were white (8.7 million or 76 percent);

14 percent were black (1.6 million); 8 percent were Hispanic

(900,000).

_More men than women used illicit drugs: 7.1 percent versus 4.1

percent.

_Almost 21 percent of unemployed 18-to-34-year-olds were illegal

drug users, nearly double the rate for those with jobs.

The survey was based on in-person interviews of 28,832 people

who were promised confidentiality.


=============================================================================


From: Charlie Ksir

Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 10:31:10 -0600

Subject: Re: choices


>Richard Hammersley writes:

>

>>Surely traffic accidents are the most common fatal result of drug abuse

>>and I hope this list doesn't separate off alcohol from drugs.

>

Dan Drumm replies:

>

>I thought it was lung cancer, then traffic accidents.

>I don't know what comes next, but I sure would be interested if

>anyone can reference any research on this.

>


In this context, I expect it's really heart disease first. I assume Danny

was talking about tobacco. A table published in 1991 by the US Centers

for Disease Control, based on 1988 data, estimates something called

"Smoking-Attributable Mortality" as follows:


All heart diseases : 150, 320

Cancer of lung, trachea, & bronchus: 111,985


Other non-cancerous respiratory diseases, including bronchitis, emphysema,

chronic airways obstruction, pneumonia, & influenza add up to 81,339.


And let's not forget the circulatory problems other than coronary heart

disease: add up smoking-attributable deaths from hypertension, strokes,

atheroschlerosis, aortic aneurysm, and "other arterial disease", and you

get 50,682.


I just grabbed the 1987 Alcohol & Health report to the U.S. Congress off my

shelf ('m sure there's a newer one around here somewhere, but can't lay my

hands on it). Estimated mortality data in it were based on 1980 numbers,

and had motor vehicle traffic accidents attributable to alcohol at 25, 965.

That estimate would be smaller today, because total traffic accidents are

down from over 50,000 in 1980 to under 40,000, and the proportion of

fatally-injured drivers with a BAL > 0.10 declined from over 50% in 1980 to

about 40% (last stuff taken from Ray & Ksir, 1993). Let's say about

20,000.


If the question was, what's the "most common fatal result of drug (ab)use",

including alcohol and tobacco, then heart disease is the winner, especially

when you consider that heavy alcohol use also contributes to heart disease.

Various cancers would be next, since smoking is associated with other

kinds of cancer besides lungs (mouth, esophagus, pancreas, etc), and

alcohol is too (mouth, stomach). The total would approach the heart

disease total. Next would be other respiratory diseases, to which alcohol

contributes a few thousand extra pneumonia and influenza deaths, and then

circulatory problems (alcohol adds a few here, too). All of these are way

above the number of alcohol-attributed traffic accidents.


There are other differences, of course. The average age of an

alcohol-related traffic fatality is much younger than the avergae age of

those dying from these "diseases of chronic exposure", and may be seen

therefore as more tragic in that same way that a drug overdose death or

suicide of a young person is seen. On the other hand, these younger

victims have a greater chance of dying quickly, whereas most of the deaths

attributable to chronic smoking or drinking result in long, painful, and

expensive illnesses before death.


Hope this morbid thread doesn't have too long a life, but I thought I could

contribute some official US Government data.


.... Charlie Ksir The opinions herein are my own,

.... University of Wyoming so leave my employer alone.
Posted By: Sir Isaac Newton

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/25/06 03:04 PM

Table 1 Drug-related deaths in England and Wales 1997 to 2002[4]

Cocaine 508
Amphetamine 436
Ecstasy 200
Solvents 361 (UK)
Opiates (heroin, morphine & methadone) 6,194
Alcohol 25,000 - 200,000 approx.
Tobacco half a million approx (UK - [1] )
Posted By: Sir Isaac Newton

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/25/06 03:12 PM

Actual Causes of Death
in the United States, 2000
Ali H. Mokdad, PhD
James S. Marks, MD, MPH
Donna F. Stroup, PhD, MSc
Julie L. Gerberding, MD, MPH

Context Modifiable behavioral risk factors are leading causes of mortality in the United
States. Quantifying these will provide insight into the effects of recent trends and the
implications of missed prevention opportunities.
Objectives To identify and quantify the leading causes of mortality in the United
States.
Design Comprehensive MEDLINE search of English-language articles that identified
epidemiological, clinical, and laboratory studies linking risk behaviors and mortality.
The search was initially restricted to articles published during or after 1990, but we
later included relevant articles published in 1980 to December 31, 2002. Prevalence
and relative risk were identified during the literature search. We used 2000 mortality
data reported to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to identify the causes
and number of deaths. The estimates of cause of death were computed by multiplying
estimates of the cause-attributable fraction of preventable deaths with the total
mortality data.
Main Outcome Measures Actual causes of death.
Results The leading causes of death in 2000 were tobacco (435000 deaths; 18.1%
of total US deaths), poor diet and physical inactivity (400000 deaths; 16.6%), and
alcohol consumption (85000 deaths; 3.5%). Other actual causes of death were microbial
agents (75000), toxic agents (55000), motor vehicle crashes (43000), incidents
involving firearms (29000), sexual behaviors (20000), and illicit use of drugs
(17000).
Conclusions These analyses show that smoking remains the leading cause of mortality.
However, poor diet and physical inactivity may soon overtake tobacco as the
leading cause of death. These findings, along with escalating health care costs and
aging population, argue persuasively that the need to establish a more preventive orientation
in the US health care and public health systems has become more urgent.
JAMA. 2004;291:1238-1245 www.jama.com
Posted By: ckocian

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/25/06 03:22 PM

Wow, that SIN does have a knack for flooding a website with cut and pasted stats. He must be a crack statistician.
Posted By: Bzedoll

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/25/06 04:24 PM

This post seems like an advertisement for Cocaine!

No matter which causes more death there is more to drug abuse than reported here. frown

Cocaine may not kill as much but it does wreck homes. Innocent live are damaged because of users that are selfindulgent and forget that there is a world out here.

There are better things to post about on this message board than Statistics on Alcohol or Cocaine. My personal Opinion. I don't mean to be rude to anyone. If I have Sorry! frown
Posted By: Jackie22

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/25/06 04:27 PM

Thanks for all the info... but anything including drugs,alcohol and even food in excess is extremely bad for you. People tend to overdo it, that's why we have so many ppl addicted to these things. Sucks! I'll just drink in moderation =)
Posted By: seashell

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/25/06 04:29 PM

There's lies, damn lies and statistics.
Posted By: Belikin Bill

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/25/06 04:49 PM

"Knowledge is a process of piling up facts; wisdom lies in their simplification."

Good Post Jackie22
Posted By: Sun&sand

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/25/06 05:32 PM

Some people have Waaayyyyyy too much time on thier hands. Jackie 22 is right. Anything in excess is not good.
SIN, is there a point here that you are trying to make? I mean a point that makes a difference here on this board?
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/25/06 05:35 PM

Nah - that's why this is in the chat area!
Posted By: Bobber

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/25/06 05:49 PM

100% of those who are alive today will die. That is 10,000 per 10,000. Living equals dying.

So, what are we going to do about this sad state of affairs? Can we: Sue somebody
Elect someone else
Accept it
Posted By: Bobber

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/25/06 05:50 PM

Why don't we just sit down over a few beers and hash this out.
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/25/06 05:51 PM

Did someone say beers and hash?
Posted By: Belikin Bill

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/25/06 05:57 PM

I would much rather "Hash", then have a beer smile

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hash_House_Harriers#A_Short_History_of_the_Hash
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/25/06 06:07 PM

Ya got some interesting concepts of what's fun there, Bill. confused
Posted By: Belikin Bill

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/25/06 06:58 PM

On! On! Law - It might surprize you. Helped start the Lion City Hash in 1982 and have run in the Hash all over the world. Great people and great fun. Suggested reading - http://www.hash-onon.com/index2.html
Posted By: LaurieMar

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/25/06 08:05 PM

Jackie; addiction isn't caused by "overdoing".
Posted By: Jackie22

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/25/06 09:34 PM

No, addiction is when someone can't stop the habit no matter what they do and it consumes them... takes over their life. When I say people tend to overdo it, I am saying they let this get out of control or it essentially controls them and it becomes an addiction... and I know this because I have firsthand experience on the matter.
Posted By: LaurieMar

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/25/06 09:38 PM

Yes, unfortunately, so did I - my ex husband died of alcoholism. A sad thing to watch and go through.
Posted By: 2MILESNORTHOFCUT

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/25/06 09:41 PM

SIN, You been hanging with john payne or what.
chill dude smoke a stoogie and relax cool
Posted By: Jackie22

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/25/06 09:42 PM

Yes, I agree and I'm sorry for your loss... I also watched my dad die from alcoholism and I grew up in a household where this was considered "normal".
Posted By: Sir Isaac Newton

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/25/06 09:52 PM

Just highlighting a very sad fact that legal drugs kill, ruin more families and cause' much more personal pain than illegal drugs.

There are many reasons why this is so.

Legal drugs need to be included with illegal drugs when proving a point of why people should abstain from such as "model" citizens.

SIN
Posted By: deacon+

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/25/06 10:01 PM

SIN, I used to build "model" citizens, ran out of glue. laugh
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/25/06 10:04 PM

That was funny, Deacon.

Just out of curiosity, with respect to the use of illegal substances, does the concept of obeying the law, whether you happen to agree with it or not, enter into the discussion at all?
I'm not talking civil disobedience, that's an entirely separate issue.
Posted By: deacon+

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/25/06 10:06 PM

The law, at one time, made alcohol illegal. Was it right or wrong to drink?
Posted By: Jackie22

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/25/06 10:11 PM

Quote
Originally posted by Sir Isaac Newton:
Just highlighting a very sad fact that legal drugs kill, ruin more families and cause' much more personal pain than illegal drugs.

There are many reasons why this is so.

Legal drugs need to be included with illegal drugs when proving a point of why people should abstain from such as "model" citizens.

SIN
Good point SIN and I agree with you on this... "legal drugs need to be included with illegal drugs..."
If it were only that easy to do.
Posted By: deacon+

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/25/06 11:01 PM

With what I recently went through with my Dad, the real crime is what legal drugs cost. When taking 9 different pills a day, ranging in price from $200.00-$300.00 amonth each, makes you wonder why are street drugs so cheap.
Posted By: Sir Isaac Newton

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/26/06 12:13 AM

Big business
Posted By: deacon+

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/26/06 12:15 AM

SIN, you may just be right. Pray they are cheaper on AC.
Posted By: NYgal

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/26/06 01:03 AM

Good point SIN smile

The guilty know who they are...some just don't admit it to themselves or others wink
Posted By: klcman

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/26/06 01:12 AM

[Linked Image]
Posted By: deacon+

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/26/06 01:15 AM

Kic, you are a jokester laugh
Posted By: NYgal

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/26/06 01:23 AM

all I see is a red x confused smile
Posted By: MOTOWNJERSEYGIRL

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/26/06 01:28 AM

same here... confused
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/26/06 01:31 AM

yeah, but it's a really funny red X laugh
Posted By: MOTOWNJERSEYGIRL

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/26/06 01:34 AM

Definately take your word for it... smile
Posted By: klcman

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/26/06 01:41 AM

she knows quality....
Posted By: deacon+

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/26/06 01:41 AM

Right or wrong if it's funny it's funny. laugh
Posted By: MOTOWNJERSEYGIRL

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/26/06 01:45 AM

Never a doubt ...
Posted By: MOTOWNJERSEYGIRL

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/26/06 01:46 AM

I really see nothing but a red "x"...
Posted By: Pam&Dave

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/26/06 01:48 AM

SIN - I understand where you are coming from. Some people consider themselves "model" citizens because the drugs they are abusing are legal. If you can buy it at the pharmacy, store or a bar - it's acceptable. No matter that they are slowly (sometimes quickly) dying and bringing down all the people that care about them. I think we can all agree on one thing, Alcohol and drug abuse (addiction) is a very selfish disease. I believe the only reason booze kills more people is because it is so much easier to obtain than the "street" drugs cited in the studies. If you could get a "bag" or "rock" or "line" in the grocery store, the numbers would dramatically change. Just my thoughts. But I get the point you are driving home here. It's the people in denial who don't get it!
Pam
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/26/06 01:52 AM

Oh, that's a quality red X if ever I've seen one.
K is a man of refined taste. He wouldn't put up just any ole red X. wink
Posted By: deacon+

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/26/06 01:55 AM

No one has ever OD'ed on pot or committed a major crime. Does it make it as right as alcohol or does legallity make it wrong? Remember Alcohol was illegal at one time. Smoking cigarettes is being outlawed in different cities, is this right?
Posted By: NYgal

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/26/06 01:59 AM

Pam....acknowledged ! I said the same is fewer words, or tried smile
Posted By: klcman

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/26/06 02:20 AM

ok technology weenies, try again smile
Posted By: MOTOWNJERSEYGIRL

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/26/06 02:30 AM

I, one of the technology weenies, appreciates that klcman, thanks. Too funny...
Posted By: deacon+

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/26/06 02:32 AM

HaHaHa,you said weenies laugh laugh laugh
Posted By: MOTOWNJERSEYGIRL

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/26/06 02:45 AM

Yes, I believe I did :p
Posted By: deacon+

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/26/06 02:47 AM

I love little kid humor laugh
Posted By: Chris

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/26/06 02:59 AM

SIN, I believe that all illegal drugs should be legalized and properly quality controlled, price controlled and taxed.

It's not going to happen in our lifetimes.

I remember Bill Clinton, just a few days after he handed the WH over to GWB, remarked that he "thought that marijuana should be legalized." Great, president for 8 years, 65% approval rating and he didn't have the balls to mention it while he was in power.

In the meantime I'm not going to use illegal drugs. Anyone who thinks there's something wrong with me because of that must be on......well, you know.
Posted By: seashell

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/26/06 03:36 AM

"Big Business" opportunity
Posted By: deacon+

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/26/06 03:43 AM

When on an SSI income should "big bussiness" come into play,NOT.
Posted By: deacon+

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/26/06 03:50 AM

Other things happening, Goodnight
Posted By: Chris

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/26/06 02:48 PM

At the start of this thread is a comparison between deaths attributed to legal drugs such as tobacco and alcohol and illegal drugs.

If all illegal "hard" drugs were made legal and "controlled" in the same way alcohol and tobacco are controlled this means that they would be freely available to everyone. There would be no "stigma" or risk of breaking the law attributed to drug use. The marketing for such drugs would be very slickly managed by the corporations manufacturing them. The number of people using hard drugs on a regular basis (in the same way they use alcohol) would increase many times over. So would the deaths attributed to such use.

I am somewhat in favour of legalizing drugs not because they're safer than alcohol (I bet they're not) but because I think taxes should be collected from them and monies used in rehab and medical care for those who become hopelessly addicted to them. I also object to the idea of the drug lords killing and getting rich tax-free from the inflated prices that illegal drugs currently sell for.

If we take SIN's "alter-argument" which seems to be that "alcohol/tobacco are worst than illegal drugs so why are they not illegal?": Again, same problem, make alcohol/tobacco illegal, drive it underground, less control, no taxes...oh, and very bad people getting rich off of it (in the same way that drug dealers amass incredible wealth from peddling their wares).

There is no easy solution.
Posted By: Sir Isaac Newton

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/26/06 03:22 PM

So legal drugs and illegal drugs are equal evils?

SIN
Posted By: Belikin Bill

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/26/06 03:55 PM

No! Both of them are bad, one also is against the law.
Posted By: Chris

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/26/06 04:35 PM

SIN, what would you like to see happen?
Posted By: Sir Isaac Newton

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/26/06 07:37 PM

Just checking to see if you feel that drug abuse or addiction, illegal or legal, is a bad thing and a negative force in our enviroment. If so, you need to remove the word "illegal" from your posts and stick with drugs (which includes alcohol and tobacco). If not, then what you are saying is that your drugs or poison is safer than another man's.
Posted By: Belikin Bill

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/26/06 08:53 PM

SIN - Do you believe in laws or "the rule of law"?
Posted By: Sir Isaac Newton

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/26/06 09:59 PM

I believe in the law of averages, like how you are an average dumb-ass.

SIN
Posted By: deacon+

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/26/06 10:16 PM

If you hurt absolutly NOONE else does it reaaly matter.
Posted By: Belikin Bill

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/26/06 10:16 PM

SIN - I do know a dumb-ass when I see one. You qualify. The self proclaimed family man that smokes pot, does coke, whores around and has little respect for the law.
Posted By: LaurieMar

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/26/06 10:46 PM

Let's play nice young lads! Because I have done a lot of reading on this exact subject, alcohol is arguably the most devastating drug there is and probably the worse addiction to overcome.

Alcoholism is recognized as a disease by the American Medical Association. It is a progressive, deadly disease. There is a difference between abuse and addiction.
Posted By: Otteralum

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/27/06 05:18 PM

My father died of complications arising from his alcoholism -- couldn't agree more.

addiction is addiction -- legal or illegal. Families and fortunes are ruined; lives devastated

I'm a libertarian and struggle with my personal experiences and the belief that people should be personally responsible for their actions.

In the end, it's a societal problem with personal consequences.
Posted By: Sir Isaac Newton

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/27/06 07:14 PM

Belikin "DA" Bill, sounds like your jealous? Enjoying mud season?

SIN
Posted By: Jackie22

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/27/06 07:30 PM

Quote
Originally posted by Belikin Bill:
SIN - I do know a dumb-ass when I see one. You qualify. The self proclaimed family man that smokes pot, does coke, whores around and has little respect for the law.
Damn... calling you out. Sorry, but it's kinda funny... can I laugh, really?!

okay, okay... you guys should be nice, enough of the low punches. We all get the point here... drugs are bad. Moving on...
Posted By: LaurieMar

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/27/06 07:43 PM

Jackie: I was getting a chuckle out of it too and don't mean to insult anyone. Moderation seems to be the key. Isn't that a lyric in a Jimmy Buffett song?
Posted By: Sir Isaac Newton

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/27/06 09:32 PM

When you loose the arguement you kill the messenger.

For those that live by the rule, should die by the rule. Those that repeatedly claim the horroros of illegal drugs need to include legal drugs. If one beer a day is ok than so is a spliff.
Posted By: Chris

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/27/06 09:35 PM

SIN says:

"Just checking to see if you feel that drug abuse or addiction, illegal or legal, is a bad thing and a negative force in our enviroment. If so, you need to remove the word "illegal" from your posts and stick with drugs (which includes alcohol and tobacco). If not, then what you are saying is that your drugs or poison is safer than another man's."

You have still not definitively said what YOU would like to see happen..you complain about the present situation so you must want something to change. I have said that I would like to see illegal drugs legalized so that drug dealers in their present form (non-tax paying murderers) go out of business and governments can tax drug revenues and treat drug victims with the tax revenues. I might be wrong but at least I can say what I want to happen.

Now, again, SIN, what would you like to see happen given your evident disatisfaction with the present situation?
Posted By: deacon+

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/27/06 09:58 PM

Any possibility that the reason marijuanna as well as other types of drugs are not legalized is because governments and their militaries would no longer have certain bargaining chips???
Posted By: dogmatic prevaricator

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 04/28/06 11:11 AM

That comment reminds me of the long ago National Lampoon board game, Feds and Heads.
Posted By: Sir Isaac Newton

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 05/01/06 11:48 PM

So legalizing drugs would make them legal drugs, say, like beer, which is "morally" ok? right?

So if one beer is ok, then is one line of coke or one marijuana cigarette?

Or you could just say no to them all and live happier and not dependent on chemicals.

The only thing I would like to see change is people and their need for drugs (escape), legal and illegal. But what else is a nation to do that is fed pills from infancy for whatever ails you - if it hurts, take a pill, at least a remedy. $$$

SIN
Posted By: Otteralum

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 05/04/06 01:36 PM

looking at the original post -- thousands die from caffeine every year???? Woh!
Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Alcohol -vs- Illegal Drugs - 05/04/06 01:59 PM

It's highly probable I would perish if I didn't get it. Does that count?
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