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Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO

Posted By: Sir Isaac Newton

Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/28/07 09:06 PM

Is all that true or close to it?
Posted By: tacogirl

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/28/07 09:20 PM

I know someone in Canada who works for a us based insurance company and she will verify that they do what they can not to pay claims to people
Posted By: Nova

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/28/07 11:22 PM

I think that Michael Moore has his own agenda and can/will twist whatever he chooses to fit that agenda. JMHO
Posted By: ericinsc

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/29/07 01:12 AM

It is typical for an insurance company to reject many claims on the first submission as a matter of fact to see how many will pursue the claim. They therefore pay fewer claims (many people will just pay themselves), and the ones they do pay , they gain interest on the money they hold while the claim is being appealed. I am a health care provider in the States, and I REALLY believe it is SOP for MANY companies... not ALL claims, but a predetermined number of them (random). See RAINMAKER, the book by Grisham, or the movie.
Posted By: Rykat

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/29/07 02:56 AM

Well said, Nuts. I can finally agree with you about something!!
Posted By: Nova

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/29/07 04:29 AM

Oh no...I've changed my mind then, Rykat! Michael Moore is GOD!!! laugh
Posted By: Hon

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/29/07 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by novascotianuts
I think that Michael Moore has his own agenda and can/will twist whatever he chooses to fit that agenda. JMHO


Remove 'Michael Moore' and substitute any politician, documentary film maker, CEO or anyone else who wields power or who wants/needs to sway our opinion...hell, put time share salesmen or even Rykat in there...and the statement holds true.


Posted By: sweetjane

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/29/07 03:29 PM

hon, i always love what you say!
Posted By: Rykat

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/29/07 03:36 PM

"I think that Hon (and SJ) has her own agenda and can/will twist whatever she chooses to fit that agenda". JMHO

Yup....statement holds true!

Time share salesman? sick wink
Posted By: Rykat

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/29/07 03:51 PM

NUTS!!!! laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh crazy laugh laugh laugh laugh

still funny after all this time!! smirk
Posted By: Hon

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/29/07 07:33 PM

Rykat, I have always wanted an agenda! Do you mind telling me what it is? smile
Posted By: Rykat

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/29/07 08:16 PM

Actually, Hon looking back at your last 40 posts I have to admit...I can't find an agenda. Guess I owe you an apology. But.
You mean I have an agenda? Moi?
Posted By: Hon

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 01:00 AM

Aha!!! Actually, my agenda was to get an apology from you, Rykat! Check grin
Posted By: Rykat

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 03:33 AM

I concede. smirk
Posted By: Otteralum

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 01:18 PM

What fact checking I've seen done (including my own) finds that it's mostly on the up-and-up. Some facts have been cherry-picked to highlight disparities, but that doesn't mean there isn't an issue. It's a big problem.

The U.S. medical prowess is the best in the world -- the issue is affordable access to that greatness.

I, for one, don't want to see another bloated government bureaucracy. I think there is an opportunity to have a unique American solution to this problem that takes lessons from the European and Canadian models, but infuses some ingenuity to ensure access not just to check-ups, but also other forms of care that Americans can schedule next week but Canadians have to wait months for.

Posted By: Nova

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by Rykat
I concede. smirk


Cut, pasted, printed and framed! Will send it to you in the mail, Hon! laugh This is likely the ONLY time we'll EVER see Rykat say such a thing!
Posted By: Nova

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 02:33 PM

Just a thought...

Number of children in Canada without provincial health insurance: 0
Number of children in America without health insurance: 9 million
Posted By: Rykat

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 02:47 PM

Bloated, Michael Moore number. All...did I say ALL of which can receive treatment through Medicaid, etc.
Otter's on the right track...universal, government run is the wrong track.
As a taxpayer I'll be damned if I'll pay hospitalization for the 12 million (not bloated number) illegals here waiting patiently to suck the system dry.
Governement run health care here.............NEVER!

Nuts! as one of those radio guys says just "a loveable fuzzball"!
Posted By: Nova

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 02:50 PM

Actually fuzzball, laugh never saw the movie so don't know if it's a MM number or not - it is, however, a statistic that you can check for yourself.
Posted By: Bobber

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 02:59 PM

Do undocumented (?) aliens in Canada also receive free health care? Also, are people in the US without health insurance turned away from emergency rooms? Just wondering, I have conflicting information. Quality or access, each have their good and bad points. Which should we have?
Posted By: SimonB

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 03:08 PM

Originally Posted by Otteralum
other forms of care that Americans can schedule next week but Canadians have to wait months for.


I keep hearing that being brought up but I've never known anyone that it's happened to. I've had a couple of non emergency surgeries and have never had to wait more than couple of weeks. My father who was diagnosed with brain cancer had surgery the morning after it was discovered.
Posted By: KC Jayhawk

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 03:11 PM

To quote Dave Barry: If you think health care is expensive now, just wait to you see how much it costs when it's free!
Posted By: Nova

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 03:15 PM

Keep in mind Bobber, we don't have the numbers of undocumented aliens here in Canada that you have there (not even remotely), but I believe they would be charged for services received. Also, we have extremely low numbers of patients suing doctors, which plays a part in the cost of malpractice insurance doctors here have to pay.
Posted By: Bobber

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 03:27 PM

Well, Nuts, your southern border is a lot more secure than ours is. I agree the malpractice insurance here is crippling (my wife is in the medical field).
Posted By: Otteralum

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 03:45 PM

Good questions Bobber. Truth is, the Canadians, Brits, and others don't have to budget for a system that cares for millions not paying into the system. America CANNOT have an E.U. or Canadian-style system --- even if we wanted to.

For some hybrid form of universal care to work in the U.S., there needs to be

1) Serious tort reform that limits malpractice liability and thus the ordering of unnecessary tests that do nothing but cover asses.

2) Immigration reform that first secures the border and then secondly determines a permanent status for those here illegally.

3) A two-tiered approach whereby those needing preventative care and/or non-emergency treatment are cared for outside of emergency rooms -- followed by a truly free market for advanced-level care.

4) A way to keep capital flowing into medical innovation without regular joes having to pick-up the tab. Right now, Americans are paying for drug innovation while the rest of the world gets subsidized.
Posted By: Nova

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 03:54 PM

And to clarify, we DO pay for health care here - it certainly isn't free. Every time I gas up my car, buy clothes, booze, cigarettes, lottery tickets, furniture, hair cuts, land, junk food, etc, I'm paying for my health care thru taxes. If we did have a high number of illegal aliens, virtually every purchase they made would contribute to the health care system pot.
Posted By: Otteralum

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 03:56 PM

Consumption tax versus income tax -- brilliant! Right on nova!
Posted By: Nova

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 04:00 PM

Hey, what better way to make the illegal aliens pay for their own health care?
Posted By: Bobber

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 04:33 PM

OH, but that is discriminatory (in some way). Sarcastically, he says. Of course Nuts, nothing is actually free, it has to get paid for somewhere, and naturally it is the consumer in general that picks up the tab. Only in America is it perceived that some "costs" can not be passed on to the consumer.
Posted By: desertrat

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 04:51 PM

IME - they have their vehicle gased up, bring a cooler or 3 of food & drink. Picnic in the US hospital waiting room in packs of 20+ (don't they have jobs ? & shouldn't all those kids they drag along be in school ?) while our tax dollars pay for grandma's eye surgery (welfare), and their sister's 'emergency child birth' while on a 'shopping trip' across the border (another little citizen ???), and so on, and so on. All we do is offer them an application for welfare when we find that they have no US address, no SSN, no method of or intent to pay. They are bold in their expectations of our care.
They are not contributing to our economy. They come across amazingly prepared and EXPECT that reputed wonderful US health care on a silver platter. And we don't question payment with care, that is a US taboo/conflict of interest. Why doesn't MM cover some of this US economy-draining-whallup-the-tax-payer-on-the-other-end to cover loser behavior by non-citizens ? and 'indigents' ? with 50 - 300 !!! visits to a single hospital (the numbers are equally high for other hospitals in the area). You rarely see such abuse with people that have routine visits to pcp's & dentists and HAVE TO PAY A COPAY WITH THEIR ER VISIT. We will NEVER see MM cover something like this. Never.
Posted By: Sir Isaac Newton

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 05:04 PM

I guess the greed factor needs to be removed from the insurance company's equations. My family doesn't have health insurance here, nor do 99% of my friends or associates. It's amazing we are still alive. I did pay $BZ450 for my 9-months old's delivery, we where in Dr. Danny's office for about six hours and I paid about $BZ2500 TOTAL for my 7-year olds "C section" including all medication, surgery, OR, nursery, etc...
Posted By: Sir Isaac Newton

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 05:07 PM

Malpractice is pretty much unknown here though.
Posted By: Bobber

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 05:15 PM

A little anecdote here. A few weeks ago my sister, who is a receptionist in an un-named clinic in an un-named city, was approached by a couple of immigrants from an un-named African country, who have a large contingent of refugees in her city. When told they should be seated and would have to wait to see the doctor, the spokesman for the group loudly said "Your country sucks", and turned to the rest who laughed uproariously. She could not reply. A good thing I wasn't there. We are good hearted generous suckers alright.
Posted By: Sir Isaac Newton

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 05:24 PM

I guess that sums up the USA (one dr.'s office)!

Was it true about the NYFD "heroes" and them not getting treated? That one is hard to believe.

SIN
Posted By: Bobber

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 05:26 PM

SIN, not a doctors office, one of a number of affiliated large clinics.
Posted By: desertrat

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 05:30 PM

I do believe the US should insist on cash payment, as well. Wow, what a concept - we're not going to eat this entire debt.
I still have a nurse/friend in Canada waiting patiently on the list to have her gallbladder removed. It's been ~ 15 months, now, and she's frequently so sick she does not know if she'll make it to that future surgery date. Maybe it will burst & the infection will put her in the ICU with peritonitis or sepsis. She tells me she's looking rather jaundiced these days. Maybe she will survive all that, too.
As with MM's other movies, it will eventually get 'snoped' for the slant he portrays, and the truths will be revealed.
Posted By: Sir Isaac Newton

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 05:43 PM

HMO's, even better.
Posted By: Sir Isaac Newton

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 05:45 PM

Man, if things only could be simpler.
Posted By: Nova

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 05:59 PM

One of the biggest reasons for the (sometimes) longer wait for services here in Canada is the Doctor Drain - they're getting their (much cheaper) education here, then moving to the US cause ya'all pay them much higher salaries there then they could make back home in Canada. 200k - 300k + just ain't enough, I guess...
Posted By: desertrat

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 06:03 PM

Bobber's got it right - we are good hearted generous suckers. And that type of arrogant leach his sister had to listen to exists everywhere. Other nations don't feel this liability to take care of everybody. Belize or Mexico would never pick up the tab for my emergency appy if I ended up in need, would they ?
we have way too many ways to be taken advantage. And we don't pop babies out like puppies or have nothing better to do than spend our days in the hospital for trumped up reasons because we don't work for a living. Believe me, I would still have a job taking care of those that are really sick and NEED to be in the hospital.
Posted By: desertrat

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 06:10 PM

there isn't enough money in the world to pay me to be a doctor. I admire & respect the majority of them, and wouldn't take on that responsibility for anything. They spend years in training, hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt for that training (unless, of course, they are a minority...), then they carry thousands of dollars for the CYA 'cause they're gonna get sued.
I see doctors every year deal with law suits that they paid out on, not because of fault, but to settle out of court more cheaply than to go to court & win/being found not responsible for any fault. We have many problems with many systems.
Posted By: Sir Isaac Newton

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 06:34 PM

I hear ya, but I guess the qualifying phrase is "first world countries". It would make more sense to compare the US with France, UK and Canada then Belize and Mexico. Although Belize does what they can with their version of socialized medicine (NHI) for the poor. Most with means pay for their medical needs.

Funny how malpractice insurance and health insurance seem be contributing factors. Dad always said, Insurace Companies and Banks are legal rackets. I imagine the doctors and hospitals are those responsible for pro bono care not the insurance giants.

SIN
Posted By: Bobber

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 06:42 PM

Again, my wife is in the health care biz, and she says it is very common for insurance companies to pay a set fee for a procedure, and the set fee is less than it costs the provider to provide this. They write off the balance. It is all about the bucks and juggling numbers, like everything else.
Posted By: Bobber

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 06:44 PM

and ditto on the malpractice lawsuits settled out of court because it's cheaper than going to court and winning. No wonder lawyers get a bad rep, some of them deserve it.
Posted By: Sir Isaac Newton

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 06:44 PM

So the moral to the story is: Stay Healthy!!!! Rum & Coke anyone?
Posted By: desertrat

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 06:48 PM

because we're the 1st world country across the street from Mexico, I mention them. Their people abuse us & laugh at the fact that they can. I know US citizens living in Belize who have had medical procedures performed in Belize - for cash, only. One is making minimum monies, 'poverty level'. I don't blame insurance companies or doctors here. I believe most frequently they're just trying to recoup where they can. I blame the people that abuse the system, send debt through the roof & don't contribute to the economy.
Posted By: collyk

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 07:02 PM

Call me what you like, but I consider myself a member of the human nation. There is enough wealth in the world to make sure that everyone has access to health care, clean water, food and education. Personally as a member of the human nation, I feel that all human beings are someone's child, parent, brother, sister etc and that we all have a duty to do everything we can as individuals and collectively to try to address these fundamental inequalities in this world.

It's no one's fault that they had the bad luck to be born the wrong colour skin and on the wrong side of the border. Personally, I think it is dreadful the way first worlders have a such a sense of entitlement while forgetting that the comfort, freedom and wealth they enjoy was built and continues to be built by the blood, sweat and tears of the third world.

If any of you are really interested in health care and the third world, please read Mountains Beyond Mountains:The Quest of Dr. Paul Farmer, A Man Who Would Cure the World by Tracy Kidder. Dr. Farmer is a lesson to us all about how much we actually can do to make a difference.
Posted By: Sir Isaac Newton

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 07:04 PM

Darn, my in-laws are up to no good again! Told em' not to go up there and ruin the US economy!
Posted By: desertrat

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 07:12 PM

Many are born into poverty, don't expect any handouts. go to college while working jobs & spend 10 years repaying those loans. And that's just because they want a better life.
The entitlement problem is not of the wealthy, it's that of the 'underpriviledged', 'poor' 'minority' that believes they 'need' to be taken care of indefinitely. Assistance programs are in place as a stepping stone and temporary, not a way of life. Some get a grip, some wallow in it. Problem pegged.
they also walk 3 miles thru blizzards, barefoot, daily, to get to school...
Posted By: collyk

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 07:23 PM

I think your idea of poverty and my idea are different desert rat. When I think of poverty I think of people who don't even know what a University is because they are too busy dying of tuberculosis, trying to find clean water to drink that day, trying to not have any more of their family killed that week by the current military junta etc etc.. Loans are not an option for these people. The very basics, as I said are healthcare, food, water and education. University and loans don't even factor into that. You seem to assume that everyone in the wold has access to things like University and loans and that in itself highlights the problem. For you to think that the underpriveleged poor are a minority is really quite sad. It sounds to me like you have no real global understanding of poverty and have no idea what real poverty actually is.
Posted By: Bobber

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 07:35 PM

Colly, I sympathize. I also know a number of doctors that spend time in third world countries, providing their own supplies and support staff, to do gratis work on their own dime. It would be nice if other countries had the resources we have, some of them do, but their elite rake off the profits. We are chastised for thinking we are the world's policeman, would we be the worlds doctor too?
Desertrat, many do aspire to better quality of life for themselves and their children, hence our immigration problem.
Nobody is born with the wrong color skin or the wrong side of the border, everyone is who and where they are. There is no wrong this or that. Some are more fortunate than others. It is not the duty of the more fortunate to subscribe to guilt because of this, it is an opportunity to attempt to help those less fortunate.
Everyone screams that we are not taking care of our own. How can we take care of the rest of the world also? Any "workable" ideas welcome.
Posted By: Sir Isaac Newton

Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/30/07 07:39 PM

Now suck it up and run off to school!
[Linked Image]
Posted By: Bobber

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/30/07 07:41 PM

SIN, you ain't no cook, but you sure know how to stir.
Posted By: desertrat

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 07:41 PM

Collyk - yes, I do Belize this subject began as life in these US, the 'land of opportunity', and other 1st world nations, ie: Canada, UK, etc. I know that we are on opposite sides of the issue and we're not going to fix it. There are many actual needs in this world. Don't tell me my reality, you don't have a clue.
Posted By: collyk

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 07:46 PM

Good points Bobber. While the USA controls a disproportionate amount of the world's wealth, it is not a USA problem. As I said, it is a global problem. I do disagree about the wrong skin colour and the wrong side of the border. Skin colour and geography are extremely relevant when you look at health care availability, access to education etc etc. I don't think this has to be or should be a USA centric issue but it does scare me when people say that they think poor people are in a minority.

As for guilt. I think that anyone who is buying goods or services that came from labour who were not subject to the same protections that you would expect for your own children should feel guilty. I certainly do.

By taking care of the world, we are taking care of our own - you were the one who said that you can't be born beyond the 'wrong side of the border'. If that is the case, then the world should be borderless. Sorry, but the fact is that there is enough money in this world for no child to die of preventable infectious disease or malnutrition and that is a very depressing fact.
Posted By: Sir Isaac Newton

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/30/07 07:49 PM

Perhaps if the US no longer viewed itself as the World's Policeman and Spreader of Democracy it could afford to channel taxation towards healthcare and keeping out the evil illegal Mexicans.
Posted By: Sir Isaac Newton

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/30/07 07:50 PM

Just In My Humble Opinion
Posted By: Rykat

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 07:51 PM

desertrat is thinking micro, you are thinking macro. Many people in this country need a hand up. Globally, peoples need a hand out first before they would be able to improve from a hand up.
This country does much throughout the world to HELP as we should but we cannot be expected to solve the worlds problems. That usually gets us in trouble.
In short the have's should be willing to help the have-nots but not be responsible for them. JMHO

For some odd reason I just don't quite picture MM writing out a monthly check to Feed the Children.
Posted By: collyk

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 07:51 PM

I have a huge bucket of clues desert rat and I feel an obligation to have a clue when I converse on a subject. You may be making assumptions about me. But if you honestly are admitting that you are on the other side of the issue to me - ie. I believe that people shouldn't die of starvation, hunger and preventable disease when there is enough wealth to stop it from happening....if you are diametrically opposed to that ideal, then ...whoa..I can't really say that much.
Posted By: Sir Isaac Newton

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/30/07 07:52 PM

Let's have a nice debate and share viewpoints. If somebody actaully knew what was wrong and could fix it, it should have happened by now. Maybe next term?
Posted By: desertrat

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/30/07 07:53 PM

'I' ass-u-me ??
Posted By: Bobber

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/30/07 07:56 PM

SIN, humble is a state of mind. Just my opinion of course.
Posted By: collyk

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/30/07 07:59 PM

I should also admit to being particularly tetchy about this subject after overhearing the following conversation among two non Belizean people.

Person 1.'Have you seen that disgusting man who comes and washes naked on the beach here in the mornings?'

Person 2. 'Yes but he is mentally ill and there is no real provision for people like him here. As far as mental health goes on the island, either the community cares for him or he dies'.

Person 3. 'Well they should let him. It would tidy up the gene pool as well'. This person was not joking.

It made me a bit mad.
Posted By: desertrat

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/30/07 08:01 PM

the wealthy hospitals I have worked for/for the last 4 years have contributed over 50 boxes of medical supplies to Belize, thousands of dollars worth. Efforts to help a less fortunate country with zero recognition or even tax benefit, absolutely profit-less. I think that's nice & global consideration.
Posted By: Bobber

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/30/07 08:02 PM

OK, everyone in the US, pony up a buck. Give it to a government agency to send to a foreign country (minus 25% handling fee). It will be gladly received by the country (minus 25% for shipping and storage). It will be used to buy, mmm, rice, which will be transported to the country (minus 25% handling and storage), where it will be sold on the black market by local leaders. The government will then notify the US that we owe them more. Realism sucks.
Rykat, right on the money.
Posted By: Sir Isaac Newton

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/30/07 08:05 PM

Working hands-on with the poverty stricken in Guatemala really opened my eyes and made me realize why many make the move to Belize to better themselves. Thankfully these folks word really hard and are helping to build this developing nation.

SIN
Posted By: weile

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/30/07 08:11 PM

U.S. fast food chains, tobacco companies and pharmaceutical experiments have probably caused more expenses to the health care systems of third world countries than the "Mexican invasion" will ever cost the US!!!!!!!
...not to mention rifles and bullets.
Posted By: collyk

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/30/07 08:11 PM

You worked for a wealthy organistion that donated some goods? I'm not sure why that is relevant to this issue. I would presume that most people on this forum have worked for organisations that have made donations. Why do people even consider that they should be recognised, get tax benefit or profit for being a human being and giving their less fortunate neighbours some help?

I spent most of my career working in non profit and the nicest and most generous people and organisations always insisted on remaining anonymous when they made donations (which is how I prefer to operate as I think it is in good taste - but that is just a snob thing). It used to make us laugh that it was the rich ones who sent in a cheque for 10 quid who would want everyone to cheer and holler their name and thank them publically. Meanwhile, little old ladies were holding bake sales and knit hats to sell and begging us not to even send them a thank you letter for their donations because they didn't want us to spend the money on a stamp and just knowing they could help was thanks enough. Obviously, they always got a thank you letter anyway.

But to be honest, I don't care who gives and donates and how much they want to be applauded for it. If it took lots of brown nosing (and man I am still washing the brown from my nose), begging, offering names up in lights and all the bells and whistles to show how grateful we were then that is what we did.
Posted By: Bill Mc Ghee

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/30/07 08:20 PM

" it took lots of brown nosing (and man I am still washing the brown from my nose)"

It's such a pretty nose too!!
Posted By: desertrat

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/30/07 08:21 PM

You bash for not doing, you bash for doing...make up your mind.
I still work for these wealthy, anonymous hospitals that hand over to less fortunate countries. There isn't any interest in recognition, but - I see: it is ok for you to blow your horn.
Posted By: Sir Isaac Newton

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/30/07 08:23 PM

I think we all wish things would and could be better (unless you are in the 1% that owns the 80% of the World's Wealth). After all, we are in this together, despite our differences and similarities. Its frustrating to see our people dying and sick, at home and abroad, when a solution MUST be out there! But where and when?

SIN
Posted By: collyk

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/30/07 08:29 PM

SIN many have created blueprints and the WHO and UN have them all. Unfortunately, they tend to be undermined by those who have an interest in maintaining third world poverty. All the cheap goods available in the West aren't cheap for no reason.

Love to hear about the trumpet. If you mean about working for non profit, not at all. In the UK, non profit work is very well paid, highly respected and an excellent career option. My brother works in non profit in the USA and it is interesting that he does not feel that working for non profit there is well respected or well paid. He is often asked when he is going to further his career by moving away from non profit. I find that interesting.
Posted By: Bobber

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/30/07 08:31 PM

It happens infrequently, but I agree with SIN. There are many good intentions, and good intentioned people, but that is not sufficient. So many geographical locales are in the same position they were hundreds and even thousands of years ago. As Rykat puts it, we can keep giving handouts, but until the situations are altered, not much progress can be made. Many of those people have the desire to change things, but not the means. Those that have the means don't desire much change. In many of these countries sharing the countries wealth is something they would laugh at.
Posted By: Bobber

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/30/07 08:37 PM

Colly, you imply that it is the west that is keeping the third world in poverty for it's own gain? How about their leaders? And is working for slave wages more undesireable than no job at all? Don't depend on the UN, they are extremely self serving.
Posted By: Sir Isaac Newton

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/30/07 08:41 PM

Kings maintaining their serfdom?
Posted By: collyk

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/30/07 08:43 PM

I don't imply. It is a well documented fact that third world poverty is maintained by governments in the west. It's not party political as they are all up to it. As for their leaders, I agree whole heartedly, but if you study a bit of history it is interesting to learn how many of those leaders have been put into place and kept there through actions of the USA and European governments. I don't know about your question Bobber as I've been lucky enough in my life to have never been paid a slave wage. It would be better to ask someone who is sending their 6 year old off to work every day for pennies a month because they are now too sick to work. As for the UN, I didn't say they were the solution. I said many of the solutions are with them. Their lack of action and self serving behaviour is also responsible for a lot of misery too. While there may not be any easy solutions that are in operation at present, just discussing the issues educates people and perhaps highlights things that they weren't aware of or hadn't thought of before. Information is power.
Posted By: travelqueen

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/30/07 08:44 PM

What about the Bourne Ultimatum? That comes out this weekend... anyone up for that? Me!!!!
Posted By: Sir Isaac Newton

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/30/07 08:50 PM

I guess things will never change. The rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer and the middle class will blame both for being stuck in the middle when not busy going to work and watching cable.
Posted By: Bobber

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/30/07 08:55 PM

Unfortunately, in third world countries, the middle class is usually only 3 people.
Posted By: Sir Isaac Newton

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/30/07 08:56 PM

Exactly
Posted By: Otteralum

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/30/07 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by collyk
I don't imply. It is a well documented fact that third world poverty is maintained by governments in the west.


Not trying to be argumentative, but I would love to see this documentation. All the history I read shows quite the opposite. It is in the best interest of the West to make consumers out of the impoverished and where leaders allow it to happen, it works very well, thank you.
Posted By: sweetjane

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/30/07 09:55 PM

interesting reading. i know nothing, so i stay out.

getting back to the beginning, 2 years ago, i got divorced. i was a stay at home mom for 10 yrs, and have no college degree. had to take a job - best one i could do with no resume was for $13/hr with no benefits. ended up i could not take care of my kids keeping the job hours, so i quit and took a part time job.

now, i am available to take care of my family, but i have to pay all my own expenses. i picked up a medical plan i could afford, with a high deductible.

so, i have to pay $3600/yr just to HAVE insurance. i pay copays and RX's myself, and so far have paid out over $2000 toward my deductible (including $775 to poo in a bucket to make sure BZ didnt give me a parasite). i had stomach pains a few weeks after my ex informed me he was taking me to court for primary custody of our kids. i called my doctor, they said call my GI. i did, they were out of the office and told me to go to the ER.

i did. two months later, i get a bill for $3500 from the hospital(plus $500 from radiology, etc) - the ins had denied my claim. i had the hospital resubmit, and am still waiting.

so, did i mention i was a single mom working part time and covering my own expenses? i am fortunate enuff to be middle class and get child support, or i would either be really screwed financially, or would carry no insurance.

now bf and i are starting a small business, and are looking at paying out $10+K/yr in health ins. until we get really running, we will be in the hole because of health insurance - our highest expense by far.

all we can say is, "oh well. that's the way it is."

bf figures that maybe if US politicians had to pay their family's health insurance out of pocket, they may see it as an issue, but won't as long as it doesn't hurt them personally.
Posted By: DANZA

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 07/30/07 10:23 PM

I recently had a conversation with a person that I would count as reliable and in the emergency medical business, all be it in Utah. He states that large numbers of illegals are coming into the US only for medical care then returning to Mexico. If that is happening in Utah one can only imagine how many are only going as far as CA, AZ, or TX. And it says a lot for just how easy it is to get into the US.
Posted By: sweetjane

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/30/07 10:23 PM

oh, and i don't know if it relates, but - as far as charitable contributions by affluent companies...

my ex contributed to charities when he went over a certain salary too - because his accountant told him he HAD to...they need deductions to offset the huge profits...not out of the goodness of their corporate hearts.

Posted By: Sir Isaac Newton

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/30/07 10:55 PM

I love Jesus' parable where he saw more value in the few coins the poor widow gave (all she had) than the many given by the rich (a basic line item on their P&L)! So true.
Posted By: collyk

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/30/07 11:31 PM

I don't believe it is a gap between the rich and poor that is the problem. I think it is the gap between those who want to make the world a better place for everyone and those who want to make the world a better place for themselves that is the problem.
Posted By: tacogirl

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/30/07 11:35 PM

Thanks to all who have given us a hand up in one way or another.

I strongly believe in "paying it forward" and helping each other.

Posted By: Otteralum

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/30/07 11:44 PM

Brava TG! You are an example of living those words.
Posted By: Sir Isaac Newton

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/31/07 12:17 AM

Do unto others as you would have everyone do.
Posted By: tacogirl

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/31/07 12:55 AM

Thanks Otter I really meant it.

My list would be quite long if I counted all the people who have done nice things for us since we got here. That is a pretty good feeling, it has helped us ride through some hard times and know that we can come through any situation.

By many peoples standards we would fall under the "have not" category, one of the lessons I have learned from San Pedro and the people here is that being rich does not necessarily = money in the bank (although that is nice too)

I can identify with the feeling those sick people felt in the Cuban hospital being so grateful for the the care they were getting, and finally feeling like they were getting their health back on track.

(I have had strangers stop on the street here to ask me if I was ok when I was a bit blue and just the fact that someone I did not even know noticed and asked was a huge part to me feeling better right away)

Maybe as a whole we do not have all the answers or any easy solutions, but I think taking the time out to be nice to someone or lend a helping hand to someone needs it we would all be better off.

Now I am getting quite sappy ha ha it is time to go back to burning cd's of yesterdays boat trip smile

Posted By: ScubaLdy

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/31/07 01:41 AM

Very interesting arguments – how about some suggested solutions:

Just yesterday I was told about Sweden’s Health Care Program and they have the best mortality rate in the world. I’m not going to try to quote the details because I’m sure I would get something wrong and get slammed for that. However, the bottom line is that EVERYONE pays taxes on EVERYTHING they buy which I was told equates to 50% of their income. This is the only tax they pay and everyone pays equally.

I worked for 30 years in a county health care system. They are a teaching hospital and they attract the type of person who wants to be a doctor who takes care of a wide range of people. Believe me; they are not in it for the money. They take on ten new residents every year and keep only the best on staff when they have finished their residency.
Being the “facility of last resort” we could not turn away anyone. When the surrounding hospitals had a patient who had run out of benefits they transferred them to us.

For the last twenty I was the manager of the department where bottom line question was “Who’s paying for this?” I came into this job just as we were going bankrupt from giving away everything. What I discovered was that there was a lot of financial assistance available, people simply had to apply. We could not turn them away but we could insist that they cooperate and if they didn’t choose to they were turning themselves away.
When they didn’t want to bother with the paperwork the docs would go around the system to take care of them. We had to start withholding doctor’s paychecks in order to get them to comply. It was an internal struggle for two years.

We were not allowed to say the word “Illegal” immigrant – it was “undocumented immigrant.” Political correctness = PUKE!

And it was not just the immigrants – we had entire communities that were into third generation welfare – and talk about entitlement!!! President Clinton addressed the welfare reform stuff and it is starting to work.

What was said about insurance companies is true. They automatically reject a very high percentage of claims. We automatically resubmitted them – to three times before we spent time researching the problems. It is a cat and mouse game between billers and insurance companies.

We had an entire department that dealt with lawsuits. Malpractice insurance is insane.
I’ve heard the wait in Canada is extreme. I go back once a year for my medical care as it is part of my retirement package. I have to pull all kinds of strings to get in within one month to see my GP and you can not see a specialist without seeing a GP. Then you have to wait and wait for that.

Her in Belize I have been seen without hours of calling and waited no longer than 15 minutes in the clinic. The cost here is BZ $30. In California the briefest visit is over US$150. I’ve said enough.
Posted By: Rykat

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/31/07 02:19 AM

And well said it was scubalady! (all except that part about Clinton...he signed it but the Repub Congress(and our old friend Newt) shoved it up his a**)!
Will give him credit for signature.
Posted By: seashell

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 07/31/07 02:23 AM

Here in Alberta, Canada, I can get into see my GP within a couple of days and sometimes same day, depending on my issue. If I want, I can go to a walk-in clinic and get into see a GP within minutes up to one-two hours wait (in flu season).

If I want to see a specialist, well now, that can take quite a bit longer. Then again, it depends on what the problem is. Critical cases get moved up.
Posted By: LaurieMar

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 08/01/07 08:37 PM

Scuba: I have lived in Calif all of my life and have never paid $150 for the "briefest visit". I have a co-pay and it is less than 1/3 that amount. I can also generally get in for an apt. within a couple of days. What you are saying is not universal.

Posted By: Otteralum

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 08/01/07 09:45 PM

Yes Laurie, the co-pay is less than 1/3 that amount, but look at the actual charge going through to your insurance carrier --
Posted By: Sir Isaac Newton

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 08/02/07 12:05 AM

My co-pay in NY used to be $5 with Blue Cross/Blue Shield. We did qualify for some low income health insurance plan for small families.
Posted By: Rykat

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 08/02/07 04:03 AM

Present co-pay in NJ with Horizon Blue Cross Blue Shield is $20 even with the cheapest plan they have. Waiting has nothing to do with insurance. Wife and I both covered. I can get appointm'nt with my primary care dr usually within 24 hours. Wife's DR who does not accept Blue Cross (she likes him and I dont ask why) usually take 3-5 weeks to get in his office. Make sense? Not to me.
Group coverage in NJ (group meaning two or more peeps) cheapest policy $307 a month Best around $550.(per person)
Expensive? Sure. Ridiculous? I dont think so. Rather pay that then 30-35% more taxes.
JMHO
Posted By: krehfish

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 08/02/07 02:23 PM

Anyone else paying $300+/mo to insure their CAR?
Posted By: cayegirl

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 08/02/07 03:32 PM

I don't remember if it was Channel 5 or 7 but Tuesday night they highlighted the new INSURANCE building finished in Belize City. They also noted another INSURANCE building in the city for its architecture. You can bet insurance is going to get higher and higher to pay for all these new buildings! Why do you think they deny most claims? They are in business - insurance companies make good money. Look what happened in New Orleans. Oops - can't insure houses there anymore - it cut too deeply into their profit margins!

Posted By: Rykat

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 08/02/07 04:43 PM

krehfish..........UH............NO! What's in your wallet? (maybe a driver's lic with 8 or 10 points on it)? sick smirk
Posted By: krehfish

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 08/02/07 04:47 PM

naw- just a teenage driver
Posted By: Rykat

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 08/02/07 08:20 PM

Ah yes, I remember it well! sick
Posted By: seashell

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 08/03/07 10:04 AM

I ensure two vehicles for around $1500 a YEAR.
Posted By: catdog

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 08/03/07 02:07 PM

Paying 5 Grand a year for two cars..One with only liability!! GROAN! I was paying 6 grand with Allstate, but the little lizards convinced me to try Geico and I saved a thousand. No points in my wallet, Rycat, just a teenage boy on policy.
Posted By: Sun&sand

Re: Now suck it up and run off to school! - 08/03/07 10:10 PM

Ouch. We pay just under $800/year for one car and a 4 dr. p/up, both considered luxury vehicles (although I have no idea how a pickup truck can be considered luxurious...it's a stinking truck for goodness sakes.) I guess it does pay to get past the "dangerous" age. Hubby shops insurances all the time, tho, and if he sees' a better deal, he takes it.
Posted By: SimonB

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 08/08/07 01:50 AM

Just to stir the pot some more:

U.S. hospitals are increasingly shutting down their burn centers in a trend experts say could leave the nation unable to handle widespread burn casualties from a fiery terrorist attack or other major disaster.

Associated Press interviews and an examination of official figures found that the shrinking number of beds is a growing cause for concern in this post-Sept. 11 world.

Experts say burn centers are expensive to maintain and often lose money because they are staffed with highly specialized surgeons and nurses and stocked with sophisticated equipment designed to ease patients' excruciating pain, fend off deadly complications and promote healing.

The number of burn centers in the U.S. has dropped from 132 in 2004 to 127, and burn beds have fallen from 1,897 to 1,820, according to American Burn Association records compiled from voluntary reporting by hospitals.

The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services puts the number of burn beds even lower, at just 1,500. And most of those are already filled, with the number available on any given day variously estimated at just 300 to 500.

"If something happens and we need the beds for burn patients, it is going to be a real catastrophe," said Dr. Alan R. Dimick, past president of the American Burn Association and founder of the burn center at the University of Alabama at Birmingham.

Some states — Mississippi, North Dakota, Montana, Wyoming, Idaho and New Hampshire among them — have no burn centers at all. South Carolina has only a children's burn center, and there are just a few dedicated burn beds in Maine, Alaska and Hawaii.

"People ought to be pretty frightened by this," said Dr. Barbara Latenser, burn center director at the University of Iowa Hospitals. "Some people who live out West, they are 800 miles from a burn center."

Many hospitals contend their general trauma units can handle burn victims adequately. But many authorities say burn units are far superior because of the equipment and expertise they offer.

"You need a burn team to take care of folks, not just docs and nurses," Dimick said.

HHS oversees the Homeland Security Department's efforts to prepare the nation's medical system for a disaster. HHS preparedness spokesman Marc Wolfson acknowledged that a disaster such as nuclear blast in a large urban area could produce thousands of burn victims, and that there would not be enough burn facilities to treat everyone.

"The number of total beds available in hospitals, we don't have direct control over that," he said.

But he said he hopes some of the money the government has been dispensing to hospitals since 9-11 for disaster readiness goes toward preparing for a surge of burn victims, even if does not lead to an increase in burn beds.

Wolfson said that if burn beds are full, patients can be taken to trauma units. Also, he said some veterans hospitals have beds that could be used in a fiery catastrophe. And he said burn centers can be expanded in an emergency.

Some burn experts are not reassured.

Severely burned patients suffer extreme pain, their bodies lose the ability to regulate temperature and fluid levels, and they are highly vulnerable to infections because their skin has been stripped away.

Burn centers are staffed by medical professionals specially trained in treating people with severe burns.

They also have special features such as individually temperature-controlled rooms, mattresses with circulating air to support a burn victim, and beds that automatically turn immobile patients to prevent further skin damage.

In addition, there are warming devices for beds since burn patients get cold easily, and tubs in which patients can be immersed to clean their wounds and promote drainage.

Other burn center features include synthetic material that serves as a temporary skin substitute, and a device that uses ultrasound to determine the severity of burns without having to touch a seriously burned patient.

The exact number of burn beds in the U.S. is a matter of dispute, and may well be overstated, because hospitals do not always distinguish between specialized burn beds and beds that are used for various traumatic injuries, including burns.

Wolfson said one recent report to the federal government showed that only 520 beds were actually available for use. Dr. William B. Hughes, director of the Temple University Hospital Burn Center in Philadelphia, said that more commonly, only about 300 beds are available at any one time.

Hughes said the United States had easily more than 3,000 dedicated burn beds in the early 1970s. But there has been a steady decline since then.

"We keep hearing we are ready for a terrorist attack," said Dr. Jeffrey Guy, director of the 29-bed Vanderbilt University Burn Center in Nashville. But even now, "our space is full almost all the time."

Guy said it is not uncommon for regional burn centers to be full and for patients to be transported long distances. "There are days we are taking burn calls for Chicago," he said.

Burn center directors say more beds are likely to disappear. Most burn centers are losing money because Medicare and Medicaid reimbursements have not kept up with the cost of providing care, experts say. Private insurers often follow Medicare's lead.

Since it costs about $10,000 a day to treat a patient with severe burns, and such patients typically require 50 days of intensive care, a single uninsured patient can wreck the finances of a small burn program.

Some burn centers around the country have lost a lot of money treating uninsured adults and children who were severely burned in explosions of clandestine methamphetamine labs.

"Burn units are money-losers," Hughes said.

Some health industry officials say that it is unreasonable to expect the nation's hospitals to be prepared for a worst-case burn scenario at all times.

"You don't want to have so much capacity you lose your shirt on it," said Jim Bentley, the American Hospital Association's senior vice president for strategic policy planning.

Dr. David Mozingo, director of the Shands Burn Center at the University of Florida in Gainesville, said state officials there have, in fact, begun committing some terrorism and disaster-preparedness money to burn care.

"They have been buying equipment and training. A lot of supplies and equipment have been distributed that are burn-care specific," he said.

Some burn-care experts warn that in an all-out disaster, health professionals would have to conduct a pitiless form of triage and decide which patients get sent to burn centers and which ones do not.

"The person on scene is going to look at people who have the best chance of surviving," Iowa's Latenser said. "We will not have the resources."

Burn care professionals "spend a lot of time talking about, `How do we get the government to listen to this?'" Latenser said. "You can't have the disasters and then say, `Oh golly, we should have had the centers.'"
Posted By: catdance62

Re: Opinions on M. Moore's SICKO - 08/08/07 01:25 PM

I may be a little late on this, but I will throw my 2 cents in.
I've been self-employed almost my whole adult life and in that time it is only fairly recently that I have been able to afford health insurance (I live in the US). It isn't great, but it is mainly there for emergencies. Fortunately I am a healthy person and only go to the doc once a year for my female checkup, but there are literally millions of work-class Americans who do not have health insurance. A lot of these folks either work for small companies who cannot afford to provide their employees with insurance, people who work lower-end jobs, or self-employed like myself.
One of my friends (self-employed) and his wife just had a baby. At her work (a car dealership), they can get insurance at a reduced rate but still have to pay for it. It is costing them 400.00/month just for her and the baby. If my friend was on the policy too it would be almost 700.00/month (he has high blood pressure and he is NOT fat--he's had it since a kid). She only makes $8.50/hr (and that is a GOOD job here) so basically she is working for the insurance.
I know that there are many people who would not mind paying a little extra in taxes so they didn't have to chose between eating and going to the doctor when they are sick. I've been there, done that.....it sucks.
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