I figure there are enough attorneys on this board to make for some interesting insight/discussion on this topic.
California has a Senate Bill pending which includes a section providing that every lawyer practicing in California will be "expected" to make a "contribution" by providing pro bono (free) legal services. Where it's not feasible for a lawyer to directly provide pro bono services, the requirement may be fulfilled by providing financial support to organizations providing free legal services to persons of limited means.
I have done, and continue to do, some pro bono work; and I'm a proponent of giving back to my community, but should it be required?????
I'm not a lawyer, Leah-Ann, but the government requiring anyone giving to charity is ridiculous. I feel its similar to mandatory tips in certain places. If they are going to require a certain tip from me, they will get it, and no more. Ordinarily I'm generous but if they demand something, they will get exactly what they demand and nothing more.
Many many people are very generous when giving to charity voluntarily. Why does the government think its their job to require it? I'm suprised they're presenting it as they are. Typically they'd just tax all lawyers and earmark the money for a new government-funded law-bill relief plan of some sort.
Not a lawyer either (he he he), but that idea stinks. Only in California (not meant in a disrespectful way, of course)would that idea be floated. Just my opinion. My wife says it sounds like Minnesotas medical provider tax. Obviously in California they need more legal help than medical.
I don't agreed w/ "required".. Some do enuff work to "satisfy" that requirement. Gov. sux..
California has always been different and always will...kinda miss the weirdness!!! But, I'm sorry, don't tell me what I can or cannot do in my own yard!!! (smoking cigarettes) That's why I live here. I think we are more free than the "home of the free"
Are doctors and veterinarians and marriage counselors and probation officers and taxi drivers and cops all required in California to donate their time and/or money to the common good? All serve functions that can be of benefit to those in society who need help. If California wants to become a utopia, they better get buy-in from everyone who can possibly contribute . .unfortunately, they might find that human nature can't be legislated.
ah, the left coast...isnt it just wonderful? going...going...
But the government won't reduce interest rates on the attorney's student loans...
signed,
Hubby of the Deputy DA!
LA, have not heard about that bill and wonder who the proponent is, but I doubt it would ever be required - seems a form of blatant "involuntary servitude". A great violation of rights argument here. Plus, I agree with KC, major discrimination. Do I look like the Bank of America? However, I guess if something like this came to be, my firm would have to deal with it financially, not me personally.
Re pro bono: not a lot of lawyers in private practice have extra time, especially if we are billable hour associates, along with balancing family life, and just life in general. I do my share, when I can, but mostly with family and friends. Quite frankly, after a long week of satisfying the boss, my clients, the insurance companies, etc., the last thing I want to do is work for free.
We have a law up here that in certain instances requires a corporation to pay a objector/complainant's legal fees regardless of the outcome and/or merit of the complaint/objection.
sniff, sniff, a headline reading "lawyers forced to work for free" would neither improve the negative stereotype of lawyers nor convince the public that the legal profession is devoted to service.
"Where it's not feasible for a lawyer to directly provide pro bono services, the requirement may be fulfilled by providing financial support"
Just send me the money!! I won't take up any of your time!
Thanks.
AS Bobber said, "Only in California!"
"expected" is a pretty loose word. Sounds like a legislator just wanted to get some publicity by introducing the bill, without really doing anything. There are more constructive ways to assist people who need legal aid. Bill, your check is in the mail. (Please refer back to Jesse's comment. I'm lying.)
Cheers all,
L
Not really an unusual bill. Similar attempts in WI. The "expected" was likely compromise language that started out as mandatory including the number of hours/year. Can't help but think the lawyers brought it on the selves, what with decades of professing their priviledged self-importance to humanity.
Regardless of the perceived "esteem" of the profession, it seems wrong that professional people should be legally (?) required to provide services without compensation. If this were made a provision in some sort of state or federal student loan or grant, that might be different.
What is it they say on TV? You have the right to an attorney, and if you cannot afford one, one will be appointed to represent you (from a pool of lawyers who are pi**ed off that they have to do it free, knowing that you are probably guilty). All you CA lawbreakers, keep your noses clean, be very afraid !!!
LOL Seachange.
krehfish - at least you can poke fun at your own kind!
If a town is too small for one lawyer...TWO lawyers will thrive!
I wonder if the bill as written pertains to all attorneys.
Mrs. Reaper is a Deputy DA, 15 yrs., Felony Trial Team Leader, etc...but I'm not sure I would want her advice on business, tax, maritime, aviation or other law matters. And I wouldn't want advice from a family law attorney on real estate matters.
Polititians...??? Always grandstanding for votes!
maybe Arnold can make his next movie for free...
Belize is so refreshing in comparison.
Sit and listen in court sometime. No tort laws, the police are prosecutors. powder wigs on the magistrate.Highly entertaining. In Belize we call them Barrister's. History tells of a physical bar separating groups in the court room, some on one side of the bar and others who have earned the right of passing over the bar into another area of the court.
LaurieMar: The mere title of lawyer is sufficient to deprive a man of the public confidence...John Quincy Adams
Yeah, I have always wanted to see the guys with the white wigs in court.
Kreh - may I ask why you became one? LOL My first choice was a veternarian, but decided surgery is not my thing.
After being in this crazy profession and a member of the California Bar for about 10 years, I definitely have earned the right to pass over to the "other bar". LOL
In Belize the Poor man is defended by himself(a fool) and rich defended by Barrister.
In some states, like Wisconsin, the mandatory membership requirement is implemented through an order of the state supreme court. California went farther than any other state and wrote the State Bar of California into its constitution. So now the State can dictate rules to California Lawyers, and they seem to be saying 'be fair'
I passed the bar 24 years ago and have rarely passed one since!!
Sorry Leah-Ann, Was that harsh?
Thanks All!! Plenty of interesting perspectives here, and, of course, some of what was to be expected. At least Jesse deleted his! LOL!
LaurieMar, Senate Bill 686 proposes adding Section 6073 to Business and Professions Code as follows:
"It has been the tradition of those learned in the law and licensed to practice law in this state to provide voluntary pro bono legal services to those who cannot afford the help of a lawyer. Every lawyer authorized and privileged to practice law in California is expected to make a contribution. In some circumstances, it may not be feasible for a lawyer to directly provide pro bono services. In those circumstances, a lawyer may instead fulfill his or her individual pro bono ethical commitment, in part, by providing financial support to organizations providing free legal services to persons of limited means...."
The proposed legislation was drafted by Sacramento Assembly member Dave Jones, D-Sacramento, who was a former legal aid attorney.
Seachange, you are correct, "expected" is a rather loose term; my fear is that it begins a slide down a slippery slope which ends only when it bottoms out at the "requirement" level.
KC: I agree with your assessment - who else is expected to do this? Because attorneys are "privileged" to practice law, we are "expected" to make a contribution, and that contribution is an "ethical commitment." No other professionals (CPAs, physicians, dentists, contractors, engineers, pest inspectors, etc.), licensed and "privileged" to ply their trade in California, are "expected" to work for free.
Seems to me that a piece of legislation which would attempt to single out attorneys for this kind of disparate treatment is nothing more than another form of lawyer bashing. I really just don't get it.
BiIl, your comments are interesting as well. It appears that large firms would be permitted to buy their way out of pro bono service. So the rich, high-powered law firms get a tax writeoff and the struggling sole practioner has to work!
Bobber's comment, "What is it they say on TV? You have the right to an attorney, and if you cannot afford one, one will be appointed to represent you (from a pool of lawyers who are pi**ed off that they have to do it free, knowing that you are probably guilty)." As someone whose practice consists almost entirely of criminal defense work, this is, to me, an example of the kind of basic misunderstanding of how the legal system works which contributes to the negative stereotype Dogmatic mentions. Pro Bono work does not include criminal defense. Criminal defendants are entitled, via the United States Constitution, to a number of rights, one of which is the right to legal representation. In almost every state this representation is provided at taxpayer expense through the office of the public defender. I can't say that I know of a single criminal defense attorney who is "pi**ed off" at "having" to represent a client "they know is probably guilty." Initially, criminal cases are rarely about factual guilt or innocence. Rather, it is defense counsel's duty to ensure that the prosecution and the police and the judge and the jury followed the rules and complied with all legal requirements. By way of example: by ensuring that prosecutors don't charge minority defendants with more or harsher crimes, or that cops don't enter a residence and search everything and everyone on a whim without first obtaining a search warrant, or that the judge follows the law and requires that jurors do the same, defense counsel help ensure that the criminal justice system works effectively for everyone - the innocent and the guilty. Those are rights which apply to every U.S. citizen and I consider it a privilege to work every day to protect them.
Elbert, I didn't see anything harsh in your comments. Can say I've seen Belize's justice system in action and have a couple of friends who practice law there. Based on observations and conversations, I wouldn't trade the U.S.'s system for Belize's any day of the week!
Reaper, I'll be paying on those student loans for a good long while. I know what my legal education cost and can guess at the cost of your wife's. Still, I also know what kind of money we make and how that compares to the income of most of the rest of the U.S., not to mention most of the rest of the world. So, I'm not looking for a tax break - as always, I just wish my taxes were better spent.
Finally, Jesse, with respect to your deleted comment that there are too many lawyers: like most things it's a matter of supply and demand. We wouldn't be in business if you people didn't keep hiring us! The rest of your comment doesn't warrant comment.
"Lyar" is the Belizean pronunciation of Lawyer....as "Harse" is the pronunciation for Horse.
Wouldn't want to trade either, were much funnier to watch.
great thread Leah Ann
thanks
Very interesting comments.
No student loans here, had generous parents, but I know the major sacrifices I went through and the long years of studying, not to mention the Bar Exam, which by all accounts, California has the most grueling 3 day exam in the United States. Just like any other profession, takes a huge investment of time, commitment and money. Lawyer bashing? That is so old. Doesn't everybody need one at one time or another?
"We wouldn't be in business if you people didn't keep hiring us!" Gotta love that. That said, I doubt this bill will ever see the light of day.
No, dog: life is indeed a beach - wish I was sitting on one right now somewhere down Belize way!
Talk is cheap until you hire a lawyer, and as my grand pappy prevaricator used to say, wish in one hand and $hit in the other and see which one fills up first.
Leah Ann, your response to my response was in the noblest tradition of how things are supposed to work. Knowing you, I would say that you do apply to your work in the most noblest sense. Unfortunately, that (in my opinion and experience) is not true of many in your line of work. We do need the "good" lawyers to protect us from the other ones. And the idiots, of which we seem to have an abundancy these days.
Jesse: Had to laugh at the Liar/Lyar. I have a friend who generally uses the same fishing guide. The guide has a long-time client who fishes long continous stretches a number of times a year, who my friend had met. The client is a great flyrodder and of course a lawyer. A year or so back the guide was telling my friend about the client, who the guide really respected. But then he starts in calling the guy a liar. My friend's a little taken a back, says no he's not, but the guide says he is too, in fact he's a really good liar.
Well, thanks, Bobber.
But you know it's that old line about 1% of lawyers giving the other 99% a bad name. I've met some doctors who are real jerks, and a few engineers, and a couple of flight attendants, and a dentist who should have his license yanked - along with all his teeth sans novocaine, and then there's that one cantankerous, yet entirely adorable, old guy who works for a government organization in the Maryland area... How come no one picks on those professions? But that's a question for a whole different discussion.....
Ahhh, so lawyers are human like everyone else. So, the nobility inherent is a personal trait and not dependant on the race, creed, color, gender, religion, national origin or occupation? Makes me glad my grading system only has 2 main categories, bleeps and non-bleeps.
From a mass amusement standpoint, when economic predation was repurposed into professional humor, low profile lawyers prevailed in that taxonomic scheme without peer. I think you've got your percentages reversed too.
If you ever see a glint of humanity in a lawyer's eye, your looking into a glass eye.
Now, now Danny2, play nice!
Dog, as my pappy Marquis says: keep on talking, young lass, because you have lots of vacations you need to pay for. Thinking Dominican Republic, Mexico, France. Better burn up that dictaphone!
I confess your testimonial for lavish consumption does advance you as the prime candidate for the poster lawyer to promote that mandatory pro bono bill.
Digressing to the jokes about lawyers are we?
Seems so, but never fear! Just a hard worker here who has a giant appetite to see the world and its many cultures. In fact, one of the "prime" reasons I went to law school - need to finance all those trips!
Cheers dears!
I'VE NOTICED SEVERAL COMMENTS IN THIS STRING ABOUT THE "UNFAIRNESS" OF PROFESSIONALS BEING FORCED BY THE (US) GOVERNMENT TO WORK FOR FREE, AND HOW THIS WOULD NEVER BE ALLOWED TO PASS�.HAS ANYONE LOOKED AT THE FEDERAL TAX LAWS RECENTLY!!!!!
WE SUPPOSEDLY HAVE A VOLUNTARY TAX SYSTEM THAT WAS BROUGHT INTO BEING, AS A TEMPORARY MEASURE, TO FUND THE SECOND WORLD WAR, BUT THOSE OF US, (NOW IN THE MINORITY, BY THE WAY), WHO PAY INTO THE SYSTEM AS OPPOSED TO THOSE WHO TAKE OUT OF IT, WORK UNTIL MID MAY TO FUND THE STATE AND FEDERAL COFFERS: WE THEN START EARNING MONIES THAT WE GET TO "KEEP", AND SPEND ON THINGS LIKE AUTOS (TAXED), BOOZE(TAXED) CIGARS(CAN YOU GUESS WHERE I'M GOING WITH THIS?)�..LETS FACE IT, WHEN YOU LOOK AT TED KENNEDY OR HARRY REID, DON'T YOU THINK THEY ARE MUCH MORE QUALIFIED TO SPEND YOUR MONEY THAN YOU ARE?....DIDN'T THINK SO
I think it's called keeboarding now.
Digressing? I thought that was a step up?
I mean if people wern't such thieves we woudn't need lawyers right? But in the US the fees have gotten so steep because more and more they are held accountable and have to afford malpractice insurance. We've all met the legal professionals that truly care and don't charge exorbant fees but then those stories are just boring.
Discussing the sad situations with miles of parked trailers in the desert the other day with a friend, and the plight of Louisianan's waiting for them for over a year now, I couldn't help wondering, what kind of deal you could get for a quanity of those? My bad of course but it was only a thought. But then again, they were paid for onece by the tax payers already. Why not sell em again? Sounds profitable to me.
Happily this is one human who has learned the difference between right and wrong action. <sigh> But now I can see this post heading in a boring direction already. Here we have small government. yeah!!!! All we need now is to fund affordably to reliable contractors the things this country needs. I can dream right? I had an awesome discussion the other day with the proprieter of Coral Cable. It started with me being angry over a dispute and a chain of miscommunications and then add in the storm damage and repair issues and BAM!!! I was being taken advantage of and it wasn't fair and blah blah blah. Well I realized I was upset and then remembered that was not the reason I moved here so I decided to calm down and write a letter.
Well to my surprise, the owner called me up and said lets please meet and discuss the situation. I later found he had called all his employees together to get to the bottom of things. Turns out though a few mistakes were made, nobody was taking advantage of the Gringo as I had first assumed. We had a three hour discussion where his son joined us and then talked about the country as a whole and the problems faced with the growing commerce and so on. So this was a long story but the point I really wanted to make was two fold. One, don't assume anything and go the extra mile to make sure that communications are correct. Two, as a result I met a very nice man and his son and gained many insights into the community. In fact many of the issues I have been aware of a groupd 20 years ago worked out in a plan which of course got scraped because it wasn't the new administration's plan. I realized again that though there are many who recognize what's needed, change takes hard work, time, and many many people.
Those of us that wish to call belize home need to remember. We are Belizeans too and are as responsible as anyone for what happens here. I also want to point out that if many have and share a vision it will more than likely happen. We see the potencial when we first arive. A country being an example of man living in harmony with nature. A multicultural hosting location attracting International Markets of travel and commerce. Perhaps large convention centers that fill up the resorts and still things flowing and beautiful not overbuilt and crowded. Art fairs and exports crafts markets. Galleries of fine art. More media and theater venues for the young and creative to voice and express themselves. I mean here we are english speaking yet connected to the caribbean, all of Latin America, plenty of resources, high literacy. Good relations with North America and Europe. It's a no brainer. Not easy but very clear. nature is the foundation, The cultures are the glue, and this time it's clear. Make no inroads for the takers and support the visionary and commuinty minded. Learn from others mistakes in other words. Look for ways to help and resist pouting and complaining about why nobody did it all for you.
OK, as usual I got carried away. Please don't sue me.
Thank heavens you don't drink, TL.
OMG, Seashell, betweet the A.D.D., the 60's, the 10 or so near death experiences, and the bad drinking days I'm lucky to write a paragraph. But yesssssssss, if you do see me drinking, don't even wait, just call the federalies cause sumpins gonna happen fer shur and it won't be pretty.
You got it right Pugwash!!!
Well, TL, I think we would be lucky if you could write only a paragraph.
WOW tl, as I can't figure out what you said I'd be hard pressed to sue you for much of anything!
I LIKE THE LEGAL SYSTEM IN JAPAN: A LAW SUIT IS FILED FOR A FIXED AMOUNT, THE WINNER GETS IT, THE LOOSER PAYS IT. IT TENDS TO STOP SOMEONE SUING FOR $1,000,000 AND HOPING TO SETTLE FOR $10,000, AS IF THEY LOOSE, THEY PAY THE $1,000,000, SO THE VAST MAJORITY OF CASES ARE SETTLED LONG BEFORE GOING TO COURT
IT ALSO TENDS TO STOP ATTORNEYS LOOKING AT A CLIENTS LIKE LOTTERY TICKETS, BUT UNFORTUNATELY, IN THE USA, THE TRIAL LAWYERS ARE THE BIGGEST CONTRIBUTORS TO THE DEMOCRATS, AND THE DRUG COMPANIES ARE THE LARGEST CONTRIBUTORS TO THE REPUBLICANS, SO IT'S CONTINUAL SPECIAL INTEREST STALE MATE.
IT'S THE MAJOR REASON MEDICAL INSURANCE COSTS SUCH A RIDICULOUS AMOUNT, AND TORT REFORM IS NEXT ON MY LIST TO TAX REFORM AS THE REASON I'M MOVING TO BELIZE.
THEY RUN 3RD AND 4TH AFTER BELIKIN AND DIVING
Pugwash, with thinking and logic like that you should President of the U. S. A.
heeeeeeyyyy!!!!! that was mean. <snif>
Sorry leah ann. let me try it another way.
You ..... see ..... once .... upon.... a .....time .... oh nevermind. Trust me. It was good.
Attorneys in Louisiana are "strongly encouraged to perform pro bono services" under the ethical standard not the rules of the bar. it isnt that hard to help someone in need. why did you become an attorney? for the money (ha!!!!!!!!)