I was watching the Morning show this morning with Senator Aiden Salazar. I was not so much stunned as saddened to hear that a resort manager asked him and his family (in front of other guests) to leave the pool as they don't 'allow locals in the pool'. He said he reckons that it was a decision made on the colour of his skin.

Disgusting.

Do you know which Resort?

No but it was a condo development with a pool and bar.

Senator Salazar had the grace not to mention the business, although I'm sure we'll all find out. Unfortunately this is not the first time I have come across this. We've come across this in pools, with one of our neighbours in a condo complex here asking for extra chlorine to be used because 'locals' had been in the pool. We were once asked not to fish on someone's dock 'because it would encourage the locals'.

It amazes me how many expats forget that we are guests in this beautiful country. Some are just downright racist.

Each rule should have a set of exceptions for special circumstances. But on the other hand, I usually check the pool rules first, especially if not my pool, prior to jumping in. My family has been asked to leave a pool once or twice and my people are pasty white. I thouhgt it was beacuase we needed a tan!

The rule for "guests only" or "owner's only" is for good reason. Pools can be difficult to keep clean and here in Belize, as with everything, expensive. Opening up your pool to non paying guests or owners is a nice guesture as long as the owner(s) are willing to pay for this public service. It is hard to let some swim and not allow others. The age old, "make a rule, die by the rule" scenario. Many times folks just jump in without showering off their body oils and with street clothes.

I always chuckle when I hear people saying, "yeah, go buy a beer and then you can swim and sun all day at so and so." What happened to the guy that paid $200 a night and is buying all his meals there? He shuold wait for a pool chair and swim in a crowded pool?

The tennis club only charges $5 for a day pass. The beach is free.

You have to realize too that this island was split up and owned by the original San Pedrano families not too long ago. Selling your land for cash gives the new owners certain rights to privacy. Dad can't sell the farm and then let his kids go and pick the corn on it.

Although it would be very nice and neighborly to allow everyone on your land and in your pool, the law doesn't require such as it does with the docks and beach. Thank God for that or us poor folk wouldn't be allowed on 95% of the beaches and docks here on La Isla!

Eiden did ask and was told that they were welcome..then later a condo owner asked them to get out as the rules were "owners and guests only". Then as they were getting out she added a comment about "if we let the locals in you know what would happen" or something to that effect, turning it into a racist attitude.

That certainly was not called for. Eiden's little boy is exceptionally behaved.

I hope they have escorts to the airstrip! Do they realize locals fly the planes and pilot the boats?

Another interpretation is that it wasn't racist, but that they were concerned with potential numbers if they opened it to all.

sick. pure and simple.

I witnessed the entire event. This took place here at my condo complex (mine is named Vista Mar Bonita) and Coco Loco Bar. I believe Eiden and his wife spent some time at the bar and his four children played "around" the pool. When the adults came over to the edge of the pool the boys entered the water. A couple had on swim trunks but the others had on street clothes.

Yes, they were all polite and not too noisy. The owner who lives on the lower level below me came out of her unit and was extremely polite (she is the principle of a school in California and knows how to be diplomatic). I'm not sure if she pointed out the sign that says pool for "condo guest only" and "must have swim wear." She did say the pool was for use by the people renting the units. She failed to say "or bar patrons." She did say if we let everyone come swim there would be no room for us. I did not hear the word 'locals' but I wasn't listening for it.

There is a problem here; the bar was built as a swim up bar and is advertised as such. The bar and pool are owned by the home owners and we pay for all the maintenance. The builder gave a person a seven year lease with an option to renew for seven years before the project was turned over to the home owners. The original lesser advertised "bring the family and come swim!" Can you imagine? The pool was packed for days until a stop was put to it and we put up a sign. Other than the Fitness center there is no other 'public' pool.

It took us lots of money and time learning to maintain a chemically balance pool. I think these condo/bar pools can almost be described as an attractive nuisance. I'm very sorry that Eiden was offended. I think if he had explained that they were bar patrons it may have ended differently.

Locals = people who live here. What is racist about that?

Colly, are we guests or are we locals? I think we are locals who happen to be white. I live here, own properties, businesses, pay my taxes, vote and care deeply about the future of the country. I'm local, I just wasn't born here. Just because their skin is darker than mine I have to consider myself a guest in their country? Many of whom are not actually Belizean. Thats what sounds racist to me.

Pools are not public property. I wouldn't assume I could swim at a hotel or condo's pool just because I'm a gringa.

If I sound a little angry it is because I am. I am the one who told you you cannot fish on my dock, just like I tell every other living sole who tries. Hang out and swim, thats not a problem. When I say 'locals' I mean people who live here on the island. In all my time here, I've had only one tourist try and fish on my dock.

I fully respect all of Belize and its people and to call me racist because I use the term local is complete B#llsh*t.

So Harriette, you don't feel it was racially motivated? You, as the only person in this thread who was actually there?

Aiden commented that he believed it was racially motivated.

This just got my hackles up this morning. I've come across so much of this since I've been here and I find it really upsetting (and embarrassing). I grew up in a town where my parents were threatened with firebombing if I went to Homecoming with my best friend who happened to be a black guy.

It astounds and saddens me how casually disparaging many expats are about their hosts. I shouldn't let it bother me, but I do.

Oh and JZB. My mother was white and French. I grew up in the USA. She was never considered a local and was always considered a foreigner and 'alien'. I am not a citizen of Belize, therefore I am a guest, until Belize is kind enough to accept me as a citizen. If you are not Belizean and have moved here from elsewhere, you are a guest in their country and skin colour has nothing to do with it. In the USA foreigners are guests as in the UK. Why should it be different here.

I hadn't noticed where I'd called you a racist. No need to be so defensive unless you have a reason to be that way.

No, you didn't ask me not to fish on your dock. You didn't even bother to speak to me.

This points to the inherant problems of a private business operating on condo grounds ........ just plain old conflict of interest.
It's a problem everytime, but for some reason nobody remembers and then it happens again .... and again ........

I need to start wathcing the Morning Show!

Can we stream it live on here?

Sounds like you are calling me racist.

If you would like to be considered a guest in Belize, that is your perogative. It is sad to think that someone who does not live here but has purchased a Belizean passport is more of a local than you and I.

No I didn't speak to you directly. It was not my party and you were not my guest, therefore I only spoke to who was responsible for the party. I hardly believe you took offense to that.

They don't stream the video but they do stream the audio at http://reefradiofm.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/listenlive.gif

If there is a pool on your property or in your hotel or in your condo complex you can restrict access based on whatever factors you want. I would certainly not agree with doing so based on your country of origin or citizenship or color of your skin or the amount of fabric on your bikini but in the end it is your pool and not mine. The Sun breeze Hotel does not allow anyone to use the pool just because you eat at the restaurant and in some cases they get upset if you walk through the lobby.

If there was confusion about who had permission or not then that is a different story. It should simply be made clear who has the right to use the pool and if you are in doubt ask or don't use it. As with many situations there is always two sides to every story and we should at least give the person who has not had the opportunity to defend herself the benefit of the doubt as to the context of the conversation and if it was intended to be a racist comment or not.

By the way I guess everyone has their own way of looking at the status that they have in Belize and for me even though I joke about being a gringo I consider myself as a Belizean. This is not based on my citizenship or any other legal factors simply that I have the best interest of Belize (my home country) at the top. The word local in itself is basically a racist term in that we are differentiating based on some element.

In regards to fishing on docks I think that we need to respect the wishes of the folks that maintain and manage the docks. In this particular case the dock in question happens to be at my house and in order to maintain a nice snorkel area around it we have chosen not to allow any fishing much like several other docks in town such as the Amigos del mar Dock. If you don't believe me then try to fish off their dock and see what happens.

My advice to the folks who have responded to this situation is to hold off on judgment until you have all the facts and not simply one side of the story. As much as I trust the story as told on the morning show, I would never assume as many of you have that the context was anything more then simply asking someone to leave the pool.

I suppose it is all down to interpretations. I'm not going to get into a personal slanging match with anyone on here. If you would like to discuss private matters privately, please feel free to PM me.

I do believe that some expats here are downright racist and I stand by that comment.

I also believe that the term 'locals' is often used in a racist manner although in itself it is not a racist term. But I rarely heard the term 'local' used except when referring to Belizeans.

I would also stand by my view that it doesn't matter what country you are in, if you are a foreigner, you will never be considered truly 'local'. Nothing wrong with that as far as I am concerned. I quite like being a guest in Belize and am grateful for the opportunity,

What is the Morning show? Who is Senator Aiden Salazar? Hard to keep up with this without the local knowledge.

As to the grievous offense, it's not polite anywhere on the planet to go visit someone in a condo complex and let your kids use the pool. Common sense, not racism.

I agree with you, Skippy.

It's ok if granted permission. But beware the same person you kick out of your pool may be the one reviewing your golf cart or pier permit or even better keeping on eye on your kids in the local disco.

"Hand wash hand" - Creoloe proverb

Or a Senator. Eiden was granted permission by the bartender, who has that authority. Only later did a condo owner decide to take charge.

You may agree with Skippy but choosy moms choose Jif!

Snoopy's mom (who's pretty choosy) says that good manners are always in style...

Both the bar owner and the home owner told me that the bar wasn't even open.

Who said it was open?

Eiden did..on his morning show

So basically he's playing the victim. It's too bad that people here get riled up without having both sides of the story.

Just something else to b**ch about.

not that i want to high jack this post ,,but what is the law on fishing off a dock if you own the condo or home ..can anyone tell you not to fish on the dock you built and own .. i love to fish but if i owned a home and made it a snorkel area ,and built a reef I might not want to not have people fish it out and kill all the small fish off it!!can I tell anyone local?? or tourist to not fish and get off the dock ?? .At royal palm many years ago we try to build a reef under it .but it was fished out in a few moths after all the peoples envoled hard work>>..????? whats the real deal on what you can or can not do????

Telegraph for Flip Flop: You are wrong.

Come to find out the bar was open. The small family stopped to buy a few drinks and sodas and asked permision to take a dip from the bartender, which was granted. The bar owner must have a serious problem if she doesn't now someone is operating out of her bar. Some caucasion lady asked him to leave when she noticed the little boy in the pool with his father, sitting on the edge of the pool, kept a close eye on him. Trying to cover up her "ugly North American" attitude she tried to explain, "You know what would happen if we let locals in here."

This brings to mind a few questions for the Town Board Licensing Committee:

Can a public swim up bar operate in a private condominium complex with a BTB Hotel License?

What part of the bar is under the Publican Special?

Do they have a license?

Is the Hotel legal? Who owns the Management Company?

Is the bar within 66' of the high water mark? In the Queen's Path?

Who is this lady given instructions regarding the condo complex? Is she management? Does she have proper immigration paperwork?

Are locals allowed in the dry part of the bar but not in the swim up part?

The sea belongs to the sea.

So you verified she was American? or you just labeled her.

Who's liable for injuries / deaths associated with this pool?

Who pays the liability insurance on the pool?

Is liability insurance available in Belize? Is it needed?

These are questions I asked when building my pier and attempting to educate myself on the local laws regarding pier use / access.

I never found a clear answer.

Some boarders basically said "Don't worry about liabilty. It's not an issue in Belize."

I would really like to know the actual laws / liabilty on this very issue.

I can't make sense of "you can't deny access" but at the same time if someone gets injured then "you're liable".

Is there a Belizean lawyer in the house?????????????

I don't see why someone would have a problem with a paying customer and his family using the pool that is connected to it. I personally have seen dogs swim in that very pool, so why should children that are with their parents be kicked out? Sounds mighty strange to me!!!!!!!!!!

Well so much for the "liability is not an issue in Belize" advise.

Here's what I've found so far, clearly liability IS a concern.



(2) Where any person suffers damage as the result partly of his

own fault and partly of the fault of any other person or persons, a claim in

respect of that damage shall not be defeated by reason of the fault of the

person suffering the damage, but the damages recoverable in respect thereof

shall be reduced to such extent as the court thinks just and equitable having

regard to the claimant's share in the responsibility for the damage:



(5) Where any person dies as the result partly of his own fault and

partly of the fault of any other person or persons, and accordingly if an action

were brought for the benefit of the estate under section 26 (4) of the

Administration of Estates Act, the damages recoverable would be reduced

under subsection (2) of this section, any damages recoverable in an action

brought for the benefit of the wife or husband, parent and child of the person

under sections 9 and 10 shall be reduced to a proportionate extent.

Here's a link to a liabilty case in Belize http://www.belizelaw.org/supreme_court/judgements/2006/sc/civil/577_of_2001.pdf

Chris - that "ugly north american" is actually a homeowner who pays homeowner fees and has every right to the enjoyment of her condo and the rules of the condo.

I know both the owner and bar owner and spoke directly to both last evening.

Each said that the bar was not open yet. Perhaps you should give Linda a call at Coco Locos and ask her direct.

I looked and looked but I can't find a case on swimming pool or pier liability in Belize.

I have learned this today; if you drive a motor vehicle you can and likely will be held liable for injuries to others if involved in an accident.

That's also the case in Britain - you're not necessarily criminally liable, but you have to pay their emergency medical costs even if they're in the wrong. Years ago someone ran across the road directly in front of me and I couldn't avoid hitting them. Luckily I was travelling very slowly and injuries were slight, but I was required to make some fairly nominal payment towards the NHS's costs.

Zaggies asked: So you verified she was American? or you just labeled her.

I would also like this question answered. Judgments and discrimination of Americans (mostly by other Americans that seem to have re-written their own history) are just plain mean and offensive. Those who live in glass houses.....

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Chris an American-born citizen married to a Belizean?

And, yes, the homeowner is an American and here legally.

"North American". It's so typical for most US Citizens not to include Mexican or Canadian nationals in their elite group of "Americans".

I'm not the one discrediting Eiden's claim that he was sold drinks at a public establishment and granted permission to swim in the connected pool, so perhaps the person that is doing so and quite publicly should call the bartender.

Who is responsible if someone falls off the barstool on the condo complex's bar which is leased to a third party? You know us locals, just a bunch of riff raff.

Yessir, my name is Chris and I am married to a Belizean, a couple times now. What's your name, several inquiring minds want to know?

I do consider myself local after beeing here over half my life now, but never will be able to claim myself San Pedrano, that's left for my kids, so I'll use their proxy for a while.

....ugly is as ugly does.

Quoting ScubaLdy from page one of this thread
- I witnessed the entire event...
Yes, they were all polite and not too noisy. The owner who lives on the lower level below me came out of her unit and was extremely polite (she is the principle of a school in California and knows how to be diplomatic). I'm not sure if she pointed out the sign that says pool for "condo guest only" and "must have swim wear." She did say the pool was for use by the people renting the units. She failed to say "or bar patrons." She did say if we let everyone come swim there would be no room for us. I did not hear the word 'locals' but I wasn't listening for it.
(sorry for the paste - I do not know how to do that double quote thing)


Chris - My concern here is your post referring to the owner in such a manner, when Scubalady clearly stated she witnessed the event and knew the owner to be polite and did not hear the word local though she was listening for it. You are the one who interjected the "ugly North American" label.
I am fully aware of your dump truck driving adventure which resulted in your having a wonderful life and family in Belize. I am sorry you feel so negatively about "North Americans". I hope you are not teaching this attitude to your children. As far as you being riff raff, I do not know you personally, but the people we met in San Pedro certainly do not fit your description. (read my trip report and you will get a feel for how warm and welcoming we found everyone)

I would also think in your business it would not be productive to publicly display such an ugly attitude towards what I would guess are a majority of your potential buyers.

As you say though "ugly is as ugly does"

Your are so right 2aggies, you don't know me or Eiden. Your concern is appreciated. Keep on thinking though and think on this, there is always three sides to every story.

Don't assume I am negative to "all" North Americans, I target the ones who deserve it. I have run across "fugly" people from all over the globe, even a Belizean or two. "Who the cap fit...." The kids are being raised just fine thanks, with an international education and world wide view on our global history. Perhaps they will not be raised to make self righteous blanket assumptions regarding a minor issue in a foreign land after observing a portion of the facts.

As far as my buisiness, if you did know anything about me, you would know I am not a sell out and would probably side with the poor folk everytime even if losing a deal or two along the way. (psst...the last two big deals happened down town and believe it or not, the purchasers were local Belizean businessmen from Belize City)

FYI: "The owner" is but one of several. Is she on the EC? I just spoke to two other owners in Villas del Rio and now some of us locals have permission to swim anytime we want as their guests, not that it's needed, as we have several "local friendly" pools in the area.

Ugly is as Ugly did.

Chris I am not trying to offend you. As a "North American" I am concerned about your generalization. I am questioning your justification for the comments above when it is on record the owner did NOT behave ugly or use the phrase you put in quote marks. If a person deserves it (and I agree with you many do) so be it, but to make the owner the bad person here does not seem justified. IMHO

GIG-EM!

Did you watch the morning show? Have you spoken to Eiden? Are you making opinions without hearing all the facts?

Is this phrase "ugly" to you?: "You know what would happen if we let locals in here".

"Forgive them Father as they know not what they do" pertains to this woman.

What would happen? This pool had been empty 20 times out of the 25 times I have been there. I wish someone would answer this lady's rhetorical question. What is the assumption she is leading to? What would happen if this Senior Justice of the Peace and Senator of Belize was allowed to dangle his legs in the pool while supervising his son? Would this small oversized plunge pool be over run by the 20,000 local population? My kids prefer the Sea that God owns. I'm glad he let's all people swim in it.

Seems to me she was trying to justify kicking this father son duo out of her condo complex's pool but added insult to injury.

To enlighten everyone, the main issue was not about being asked to leave, it was the phrase used trying to justify this action.

Maybe Ugly should be changed to Ignorant in this case. Point duly noted.

"Chris.......I am fully aware of your dump truck driving adventure which resulted in your having a wonderful life and family in Belize."


O.K. curiousity has gotten the best of me.

What does dump truck driving and Chris moving to Belize have in common?

Someone was interested enough to do some research on me. Flattered. (blushing)

Well stop blushing and enlighten those of us who are curious.

While I am thinking on my dump truck adventure and my lonley nights in Texarkana, I thought of this:

Would this scenario have been played out if my child was in the pool, a little clear skin baby rather than a brown skined little boy? Just a thought, no accusations.

What would have happened?

Is this lady responsible for check in, check outs and rooming lists? I thought Villas del Rio had a management company that did this?

Well...

The real estate people have a lot of time on their hands at the moment so they might be forgiven for spending too much of it on this board. The good Senator needs to get back to work and the
rest of us need to find a new subject. Perhaps you can find one
that involves you personally present at the time it took place!

sorry to be off topic, but i have met Chris' in-laws, wife, and all of his kids. they were all very friendly, polite, and welcoming. couldn't have been nicer to us "north americans", so no worries about that. we were impressed how well-behaved the young ones are. very nice family. just settin' that record straight.

please continue...

The Good Senator was at work on HIS radio station on HIS Morning Show, discussing various issues of San Pedro, as he does weekdays. You should listen in. It's available streaming on the internet.

I have not once addressed the "use of the pool". That is entirely an owner issue. I will take your comment of "Seems to me..." as the response to justify your use of "ugly North American" and the phrase that has yet to be verified, since you have dodged it 3 times now. Are you running for office? (that is intended as humor Chris, not personal)

I will take Scubalady's eye-witness account of what transpired over opinion and just let this go.

And no I did NOT research you, I have the ability to recall an extremely high percentage of what I read. Not sure what you mean by the "Ignorant" part, but considering it is from the same source of the "ugly North American" statement, I'll let it go as well.

Hammer - go back to sleep or looking out the window or whatever it is you were doing. I am having fun with this before I shoot up the coast in the speed boat. What an awesome day it is today, I am so thankful for being here.

"....did not hear the word locals but wasn't LISTNENING...." So what you are saying is, you will take her eye (not ear) witness account that she states she is not sure what she said, but will not take the word of a Senior Justice of the Peace?

They sure teach em' to be objective at T A&M.

Yes, her statement, verified personally, was and is f'in ugly mate. What's in the heart comes out through the mouth - a universal truth. If there was no ill intention (which is what I think) than I will write it off to ignorance.

It's one to grow on.

Now you're starting to get it! Senior Senator and Musa was what?

Senior Senator, Prime Minister, they are also able to make mistakes. Enjoy your boat ride.

I have read these posts with a lot of restraint. There is so much misinformation it is hard to know what is important and what is not.

For the record I am an owner here and the only one out of ten who live here.
No one has talked to me about the use of the pool. I would be interested to know who the "two owners" are.

There is NO management Company - we have a home owners association.
We have a Maintenance Management team (who are wonderful) that takes care of the grounds. They are also hired by some of the homeowners to rent out their units.
The woman who asked the boys to leave the pool is an owner and the wife of one of the three directors.
There was not one boy in the pool there were four. At least one if not two was in street clothes.
Eiden and his wife had been bar patrons while the boys played around the pool.
I was told (did not hear directly) that Eiden had asked the bartender if they could swim. The bartender said "only bar patrons - not the boys."
For some reason the bar tender left.
At that point Eiden and his wife went around to the lounge chairs beside the pool. When he moved over to the edge of the pool and dangled his feet in the water the boys started swimming. So Eiden did this knowing the limitations set by the bar.

I already reported what I heard and will not restate it. There was nothing hostile about it.

This woman has a lot of local kids that come to visit her - to label someone as racist is a hurtful and hateful thing to do.
I like Eiden - except when, on the morning show, he goes off on a tangent speaking Spanish which I can't understand.

This topic has gotten blown way out of proportion and I think it needs to be put to bed.

Since when is speaking Spanish "going off on a tangent"? It's the first language of this community and the majority of Eiden's listeners prefer it. Everyone here should have 2 languages..or make an effort to learn a second.

Thank you! Nighty Night.

Nice, Jesse

"This topic has gotten blown way out of proportion and I think it needs to be put to bed."

With all due respect, if you have written all that to begin with then it would not have been "blown way out of proportion". You had the salient facts. Why did you keep them to yourself?

Jesse - you are somewhat right - but I am one of those people who are so verbally dyslexic that I have trouble even with English. One of the reasons I choose to live here is because it is an English Speaking country. I am very patient with people who converse in Spanish or Creole or anything else, and I expect them to be tolerant of me.

I may be a little thin skinned about it and should not have used the word 'tangent.' When he gets excited would have been a better way of saying it.

The Morning Show is pledged to communicate more or less equally in both Spanish and English. Many times they repeat important information in both languages. More than half the call-ins speak in Spanish. It has nothing to do with Senator Eiden "getting excited".

Thank you Jesse - by getting excited I mean he forgets to translate to English. I have no quarell with back and forth.

Couldn't this topic be moved to an area more appropriate?
Forum List title is "Ambergris Caye - questions specific to San Pedro and Ambergris Caye". This did not start as a question. It started as a commentary.

Scuba Lady,
I don't think it has anything to do with your "thin skin" - rather, your "clear skin"....

Having Fun - you are soooo right.
Marty - can you move it?
Snoopy - I'm getting darker every year! LOL

An apology would be mighty big of her if she is such a big hearted woman (even if she is right in her mind). Obviously she upset a pillar of the community that has done much for the "local" community for many years people. How easy would that be?