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Re: Globalization [Re: bywarren] #345590
07/20/09 08:58 AM
07/20/09 08:58 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,265
San Pedro Belize
elbert Offline OP
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elbert  Offline OP
Originally Posted by bywarren
Smallpox did not exists in the native American population until introduced by Europeans.

That was the point I was trying to make, the Globalization down side.
The Amerindians immune systems where not ready for it and it and it almost wiped them out. The buffalo benefited with the lost of their major predator.


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Re: Globalization [Re: elbert] #345599
07/20/09 09:55 AM
07/20/09 09:55 AM
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 4,701
Pismo Beach
Rykat Offline
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Rykat  Offline
therefore..........
Lionfish will rule the reefs in 17.841 years? grin


GOP - The Party of Lincoln.
Re: Globalization [Re: Rykat] #345619
07/20/09 11:30 AM
07/20/09 11:30 AM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,720
Illinois, Arkansas,South Dakot...
bywarren Offline
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bywarren  Offline
I don’t think the chronology of the increase in numbers and subsequent decline of bison numbers is supported by the globalization theory. Early explores i.e.: Lewis & Clark et al. reported huge numbers of bisons. This is prior to the Native Americans being exposed to European diseases. The dramatic decline in bison numbers occurred when the white man began the wholesale slaughter for the hides.
Although, I guess the decline could be attributed to "globalization" but the increase in numbers does not support that theory if it is suggested to be caused by the decline in numbers of the Amerindians.

Re: Globalization [Re: bywarren] #345647
07/20/09 12:52 PM
07/20/09 12:52 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,265
San Pedro Belize
elbert Offline OP
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elbert  Offline OP
The Lewis Clark where over 300 years after the small pox epidemic in America, by the time Lewis and Clark showed up, the West was already transformed
the Desoto expedition was said to have carried small pox.
its even implied the he may have used it as a weapon as early as the 15th century.


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Re: Globalization [Re: elbert] #345658
07/20/09 01:23 PM
07/20/09 01:23 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,720
Illinois, Arkansas,South Dakot...
bywarren Offline
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bywarren  Offline
The smallpox devistation of the American Plains Indian did not occur that early. Desoto did not go that far west and the infection he brought had not spread much west of the Mississippi.

"Smallpox and the Plains Indians:
A smallpox outbreak in 1780-82 followed the distribution and trade route of the Indian horse (Haines). The outbreak in 1800-02 spreads from the Plains Indians to the Indians along the Pacific coast. Despite heavy losses during these periods, the most devastating outbreak of smallpox was yet to come.

In 1832, the first steamboat, a small side-wheeler named, Yellow Stone, reached Fort Union at the mouth of the Yellowstone River. The use of steamboats on the Missouri allowed large quantities of trade goods to move up and down the river. The buffalo hide trade now become more important than the trade in furs. Remote Indian villages brought their buffalo hides to the American Fur Company posts. This set the stage for ensuing disaster.

In June of 1837, the St. Peter arrived at Fort Clark, sixty miles north of present day Bismarck, North Dakota. Knowing there were men aboard the boat with smallpox, F. A. Chardon and others of the American Fur Company tried to keep the Mandans away from the boat, but to no avail. The two Mandan villages that had provided aid to Lewis and Clark during the winter of 1804-05 were devastated. Thirty-one Mandans out of a population of sixteen hundred survived the epidemic...these figures vary, but needless to say it was devastating to the Mandans.

The 1837 smallpox outbreaks were initially confined to the Indian tribes that lived by, or had come to trade at, the upper Missouri River trading posts. The Mandan, Blackfeet, and the Assiniboine nations suffered the highest number of deaths. The 1837-40 smallpox outbreaks were said to have a ninety-eight percent death rate among those infected (Bray)."

The large number of bison existed prior to the decline of the native plains indians from smallpox. Actually, the decline of both were almost simultaneos.

So I guess you could say the decline of both was caused by globaliztion, but I do not see how the increase in population of the bison could be attributed to that.



Last edited by bywarren; 07/20/09 02:11 PM.
Re: Globalization [Re: bywarren] #345666
07/20/09 02:29 PM
07/20/09 02:29 PM
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,720
Illinois, Arkansas,South Dakot...
bywarren Offline
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bywarren  Offline
Just a side note: if any of you are wondering why I spent so much time on this subject, I worked in a small way with the Crow Creek Indian Reseration in South Dakota, it's Tribal Chairman - Duane Big Eagle, and the South Dakota Game Fish & Parks game biologists on the management of the tribes bison herd. It has special interest to me and I like the facts to be accurate.

Re: Globalization [Re: bywarren] #345674
07/20/09 03:04 PM
07/20/09 03:04 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 890
skippy Offline
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skippy  Offline
Originally Posted by bywarren
I don’t think the chronology of the increase in numbers and subsequent decline of bison numbers is supported by the globalization theory. Early explores i.e.: Lewis & Clark et al. reported huge numbers of bisons. This is prior to the Native Americans being exposed to European diseases. The dramatic decline in bison numbers occurred when the white man began the wholesale slaughter for the hides.
Although, I guess the decline could be attributed to "globalization" but the increase in numbers does not support that theory if it is suggested to be caused by the decline in numbers of the Amerindians.



I agree. And my point, after pointing out that humans had only been around a while to "control" the buffalo population (they didn't, too many buffs, too few humans), is that if the smallpox/buff herds connection was fact, then the argument can be made that "globalization" has been going on throughout human history.


I hope that someday we can put aside our fears and prejudices and just laugh at people.
Re: Globalization [Re: bywarren] #345675
07/20/09 03:06 PM
07/20/09 03:06 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,265
San Pedro Belize
elbert Offline OP
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elbert  Offline OP
Most of my info on the subject comes from a
history book by Charles C. Mann i read about New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus and some from books i've read by Richard Dawkins.
both are disputing the history of America on lots of points, from the land bridge theory to underestimates of the small pox epidemic.
Mann even contends De Soto intentionally brought the virus with him kept alive in pig stock for the purpose of weaponry and it swept coast to coast killing tens of thousands at such a speed they could not bury the dead for dying themselves and that its dramatic effect was due to different genetic susceptibility of the Amerindian.
Manns contention and premise for the book is we have it all wrong.
and even as i Google the subject their are lots of major discrepancies like the 13,000 year date of the presence and the 20,000 year carbon dates.


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Re: Globalization [Re: elbert] #345679
07/20/09 03:14 PM
07/20/09 03:14 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,265
San Pedro Belize
elbert Offline OP
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elbert  Offline OP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/index.html?curid=3239326
Mann concludes that Indians were a "keystone species," one that "affects the survival and abundance of many other species." By the time the Europeans arrived and settled in the Americas, the "boss" (Indians) had been almost completely eliminated. Disease ran rampant and killed off the Indians, disrupting their control of the environment. When Indians died, animal populations, such as that of the buffalo grew immensely. "Because they (Europeans) did not burn the land with the same skill and frequency as its previous occupants, the forests grew thicker." The world discovered by Christopher Columbus was “largely an inadvertent European creation.”


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Re: Globalization [Re: elbert] #345744
07/21/09 07:42 PM
07/21/09 07:42 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 890
skippy Offline
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skippy  Offline
"Mann even contends De Soto intentionally brought the virus with him"

Uh HUH. Yes virology, not to mention pathogenic organism transmission theory, was at it's heyday back then.

I knew there was a reason his theories sounded off base. He's insane. Not that there's anything wrong with that.


I hope that someday we can put aside our fears and prejudices and just laugh at people.
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